6 ms·

Ride services decimate S.F. taxi industry's business

35 points by papa 12y ago

byoung2 12y ago
The agency...required electronic information systems in all cabs and encouraged the use of dispatching apps. Most cabs now use electronic hailing apps similar to what the ride services offer. So it took some healthy competition from startups to get the Taxi industry to actually improve their product? Next, I'd like startups to tackle banks, insurance, hospitals, airlines, and nearly every other established industry.
- henrikschroder 12y ago
  Meanwhile, outside the Valley, across the ocean, five years ago, some regular taxi companies where I lived launched hailing apps, all on their own. No startups required. Maybe the competition was stronger?
  - sashanna 12y ago
    But those innovative taxi companies still charged a 10% surcharge for using your credit card. Which mysteriously dropped to 5% when Uber appeared on the scene.
  - jfoster 12y ago
    Where is that? Would be interesting to know how Uber is doing in that market.
    - henrikschroder 12y ago
      Stockholm, Uber just entered it, so that's going to be interesting to follow. To be fair though, Uber's app is (now) better than the existing taxi company apps, with its integrated payments and map where you can see how far away your car is, so there's some value there.
- adventured 12y ago
  The only industries that won't be demolished and rebuilt, are those in which it's nearly impossible to compete by design / by law, or for which there isn't a great business opportunity. Nobody will be disrupting JP Morgan this century. That's by dictate of the US Government that will never let go of its direct control over the financial industry. Try and you won't be tangling with some annoying city board. Airlines won't get disrupted until new technology comes on line to make it drastically less expensive, or something like Hyperloop is built. The problem there is not lack of competition. Not to mention, software is already sucking the best profits out of that industry: Priceline & Co. The airlines are the commodity box makers to Priceline's Windows.
NN88 12y ago
wait until NFC truly takes off...
- serge2k 12y ago
  Then we can have taxi drivers whine and argue about NFC in addition to credit cards?
drivingmenuts 12y ago
Want to kill Uber and Lyft? Require drivers to be as ADA-compliant as taxi services.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Given how few rides occur (less than what a single taxi driver sees in a month), it seems like the sort of thing Uber/Lyft could subsidize, particularly if all they commit to is the incredibly crappy service levels you get from the Taxi company.
  - drivingmenuts 12y ago
    The really evil part of me is thinking, and maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick here, like this: When you request a ride with a taxi-service, it's up to the discretion of the service which car to send. You need something for a wheelchair? Fine, they send you what's available from their fleet. When you request a ride from Uber or Lyft, those two are just middlemen who put you in touch with one of a thousand little companies. Potentially, each one is available. So, here's the evil bit: require each ride-providing service (a taxi company or an Uber contractor or a Lyft contractor) to provide a minimum of one or two ADA-compliant vehicles. The independent contractors for Uber and Lyft immediately go away, except for the one or two that are so wealthy as to be able to afford a ramp-van or other compliant vehicle.
mdesq 12y ago
> The new companies, unlike taxi operators, have lesser insurance requirements, no restrictions on the number of vehicles they put on the streets, no clean-air standards and less-stringent background checks. There are clean air standards for taxis? I'm not sure how well they work, since about half of the taxis I have taken recently (worldwide) have had the engine light on, indicating a likely emissions problem. Since taxis drive so much, an emissions issue on a taxi for a month is probably equivalent to a year on many private vehicles. That said, even private vehicles have clean-air standards in any state (like mine) with emissions inspection requirements.
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  https://energycenter.org/programs/clean-cab-partnership https://energycenter.org/programs/clean-cab-partnership http://www.sfenvironment.org/news/press-release/san-francisco-to-add-clean-air-vehicles-to-citys-taxi-fleet http://www.sfenvironment.org/news/press-release/san-francisc... http://www.sfmayor.org/?page=684 http://www.sfmayor.org/?page=684
  - carl8 12y ago
    Was just going to site that last one: 2/8/12 "Today 92 percent of the taxi fleet is comprised of hybrid or CNG vehicles. There are 1,318 alternative fuel vehicles out of a total of 1,432 eligible vehicles. CNG vehicles account for 89 of those and the hybrids account for 1,229."
- switch007 12y ago
  > had the engine light on, indicating a likely emissions problem. Is that true? I thought the engine light could be for many things and only a few of them emissions related? (true for the European cars I've owned, anyway) edit: actually, I guess, many of the faults are probably directly, or indirectly, likely to result in an emissions change.
baddox 12y ago
> Among biggest impacts of the ride services has been the drop in taxi rides taken by people in ramp taxis, which carry people in wheelchairs. As the ride services have grown and the number of cabs has diminished, so has the availability of wheelchair-accessible taxis, which are costlier to operate. That's certainly a negative effect, but why would it result from the rise of ridesharing services? If taxi companies need to scale back the number of cars in their fleet, shouldn't they only take from the cars that aren't accessible?
- jostmey 12y ago
  Yeah, you would think the taxi companies would lean more on this niche market, not less.
- philip1209 12y ago
  It's worth pointing out that they seem to have a monopoly in handicapped transport too. Not saying this is a major plus and not saying it's a profitable market, but they can at least use it to their advantage in marketing and courts.
  - cmsmith 12y ago
    It's not only not a major plus, it's a minus. Traditional taxi companies are forced by regulators to provide less profitable accessible transport in exchange for being given a monopoly on taxi services. Part of the way that Uber is undercutting the taxi companies is by not providing services to the disabled (or at least not without added cost).
- lallysingh 12y ago
  The accessible ones probably use more fuel per mile.
- sjg007 12y ago
  I am sure there will soon be uber accessible.
  - 12y ago
binarycrusader 12y ago
no clean-air standards Either the author is attempting to bias their readers or was unintentionally misleading -- California generally requires personal vehicles to be smog tested on a regular basis. I should know; my less than four year old car (at the time) had to be smog tested just this past year.
jliptzin 12y ago
Usually I feel bad for traditional businesses quickly displaced by emerging startups. However, I've been in too many cabs where the driver is constantly on the phone while driving, abusing the speed limit, slamming on the breaks every 8 seconds, foul odors, dirty vehicles, roundabout routes, the list goes on. Good riddance.
- eldavido 12y ago
  Amen to that. Living here in SF, the customer service aspect of cabs is appalling. I'm tired of getting dirty looks for paying with a credit card, having cabs with their light on and nobody in them drive right by me, playing the "where are you going" game, drivers talking on phones, and general surliness. The day the industry unionized, that pushed me over the edge. I'm now 100% using Uber to get around and my only regret is that I didn't try it sooner - it's awesome.
  - lolwutf 12y ago
    Don't forget: Uber and Uber's drivers have been responsible for children's deaths, interfering with the normal course of competitor's business, stuffing blind persons' service dogs in the trunk, price gouging during states of emergencies. All on top of a proprietary, unpublished 'surge pricing' algorithm. I know you think taxis are the devil, but Uber's behavior as a parent company has been downright heinous. Personally, I avoid supporting them, whenever possible, and go with better-acting players in the market like Lyft and Sidecar.
    - hkmurakami 12y ago
      Not sure why you're being downvoted a bunch for this post (seems like you're just stating facts that have happened, as well as your opinions, albeit in a somewhat negatively biased tone, but nothing out of reason). So here's an upvote. I'd forgotten and/or downplayed these issues and your post made me reconsider and start using Lyft for the first time (been lazy thus far), so thanks for your post. :)
      - 12y ago
raldi 12y ago
I'm going to call this submarine marketing (well, really submarine lobbying) on the part of taxi companies. If they were truly in dire straits, they'd be turning in their medallions and the city would be struggling to find new buyers.
miah_ 12y ago
Yellow Taxi, Green Cab decimated themselves. Living in SF there was one thing you learned quickly: calling the taxi was a complete waste of time. The reason Uber, Lyft, etc won was because they could actually perform a job the taxi's had been failing at for years.
ericfrenkiel 12y ago
Never has creative destruction ever been so enjoyable to observe and partake. For all the waiting in the cold, rude cabbies, cash only bullshit, and lack of availability, to the taxi industry of SF, I say to you: you have only yourselves and SF City Council to blame.
craigyk 12y ago
"decimate", so they reduced it by 10%?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Mandelbug 12y ago
  Interestingly, asking Google to define "decimate" returns a modern definition, "kill, destroy, or remove a large percentage or part of", and a historical one, "kill one in every ten of (a group of soldiers or others) as a punishment for the whole group". The English language has apparently moved on.
  - hnriot 12y ago
    look at the word root, deci - like decimal, decimeter, etc.
  - Jedd 12y ago
    Certain uneducated users of the language may have 'moved on'. Doesn't mean the rest of us should encourage this misuse. The word devastate much better suits the intent here, which would leave decimate to continue meaning something quite specific (and useful).
    - cbd1984 12y ago
      Modern Parisians speak the most atrocious Latin, wouldn't you agree?
    - Mandelbug 12y ago
      Honestly I have never really found a situation where I wanted to exactly (or even slightly) mean reduce by 10%. It is too specific of a definition to be truly useful. I find it much more convenient, and useful, to have a word that means the current modern definition of decimate. Perhaps decimate is a poor choice to represent that, but honestly not every word has to sound or have roots that directly relate to the definition of the word. It is more important words are used, rather than languish or die in history books.
sixQuarks 12y ago
I have no sympathy for the SF taxi industry. I can't count the number of times I was left stranded at 2 AM on a friday or saturday night, having to walk home in the rain. It's about time.
pkaye 12y ago
Here is the best I can find on the clean air standards. I think pushing taxi companies to use hybrids, all electric, natural gas vehicles, etc. http://www.sfmta.com/about-sfmta/blog/sf%E2%80%99s-taxis-can-help-you-go-green http://www.sfmta.com/about-sfmta/blog/sf%E2%80%99s-taxis-can...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

35 points by papa 12y ago

The agency...required electronic information systems in all cabs and encouraged the use of dispatching apps. Most cabs now use electronic hailing apps similar to what the ride services offer. So it took some healthy competition from startups to get the Taxi industry to actually improve their product? Next, I'd like startups to tackle banks, insurance, hospitals, airlines, and nearly every other established industry.

henrikschroder 12y ago
Meanwhile, outside the Valley, across the ocean, five years ago, some regular taxi companies where I lived launched hailing apps, all on their own. No startups required. Maybe the competition was stronger?
- sashanna 12y ago
  But those innovative taxi companies still charged a 10% surcharge for using your credit card. Which mysteriously dropped to 5% when Uber appeared on the scene.
- jfoster 12y ago
  Where is that? Would be interesting to know how Uber is doing in that market.
  - henrikschroder 12y ago
    Stockholm, Uber just entered it, so that's going to be interesting to follow. To be fair though, Uber's app is (now) better than the existing taxi company apps, with its integrated payments and map where you can see how far away your car is, so there's some value there.
adventured 12y ago
The only industries that won't be demolished and rebuilt, are those in which it's nearly impossible to compete by design / by law, or for which there isn't a great business opportunity. Nobody will be disrupting JP Morgan this century. That's by dictate of the US Government that will never let go of its direct control over the financial industry. Try and you won't be tangling with some annoying city board. Airlines won't get disrupted until new technology comes on line to make it drastically less expensive, or something like Hyperloop is built. The problem there is not lack of competition. Not to mention, software is already sucking the best profits out of that industry: Priceline & Co. The airlines are the commodity box makers to Priceline's Windows.

NN88 12y ago

wait until NFC truly takes off...

serge2k 12y ago
Then we can have taxi drivers whine and argue about NFC in addition to credit cards?

drivingmenuts 12y ago

Want to kill Uber and Lyft? Require drivers to be as ADA-compliant as taxi services.

ghshephard 12y ago
Given how few rides occur (less than what a single taxi driver sees in a month), it seems like the sort of thing Uber/Lyft could subsidize, particularly if all they commit to is the incredibly crappy service levels you get from the Taxi company.
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  The really evil part of me is thinking, and maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick here, like this: When you request a ride with a taxi-service, it's up to the discretion of the service which car to send. You need something for a wheelchair? Fine, they send you what's available from their fleet. When you request a ride from Uber or Lyft, those two are just middlemen who put you in touch with one of a thousand little companies. Potentially, each one is available. So, here's the evil bit: require each ride-providing service (a taxi company or an Uber contractor or a Lyft contractor) to provide a minimum of one or two ADA-compliant vehicles. The independent contractors for Uber and Lyft immediately go away, except for the one or two that are so wealthy as to be able to afford a ramp-van or other compliant vehicle.

mdesq 12y ago

> The new companies, unlike taxi operators, have lesser insurance requirements, no restrictions on the number of vehicles they put on the streets, no clean-air standards and less-stringent background checks. There are clean air standards for taxis? I'm not sure how well they work, since about half of the taxis I have taken recently (worldwide) have had the engine light on, indicating a likely emissions problem. Since taxis drive so much, an emissions issue on a taxi for a month is probably equivalent to a year on many private vehicles. That said, even private vehicles have clean-air standards in any state (like mine) with emissions inspection requirements.

rgbrenner 12y ago
https://energycenter.org/programs/clean-cab-partnership https://energycenter.org/programs/clean-cab-partnership http://www.sfenvironment.org/news/press-release/san-francisco-to-add-clean-air-vehicles-to-citys-taxi-fleet http://www.sfenvironment.org/news/press-release/san-francisc... http://www.sfmayor.org/?page=684 http://www.sfmayor.org/?page=684
- carl8 12y ago
  Was just going to site that last one: 2/8/12 "Today 92 percent of the taxi fleet is comprised of hybrid or CNG vehicles. There are 1,318 alternative fuel vehicles out of a total of 1,432 eligible vehicles. CNG vehicles account for 89 of those and the hybrids account for 1,229."
switch007 12y ago
> had the engine light on, indicating a likely emissions problem. Is that true? I thought the engine light could be for many things and only a few of them emissions related? (true for the European cars I've owned, anyway) edit: actually, I guess, many of the faults are probably directly, or indirectly, likely to result in an emissions change.

baddox 12y ago

> Among biggest impacts of the ride services has been the drop in taxi rides taken by people in ramp taxis, which carry people in wheelchairs. As the ride services have grown and the number of cabs has diminished, so has the availability of wheelchair-accessible taxis, which are costlier to operate. That's certainly a negative effect, but why would it result from the rise of ridesharing services? If taxi companies need to scale back the number of cars in their fleet, shouldn't they only take from the cars that aren't accessible?

jostmey 12y ago
Yeah, you would think the taxi companies would lean more on this niche market, not less.
philip1209 12y ago
It's worth pointing out that they seem to have a monopoly in handicapped transport too. Not saying this is a major plus and not saying it's a profitable market, but they can at least use it to their advantage in marketing and courts.
- cmsmith 12y ago
  It's not only not a major plus, it's a minus. Traditional taxi companies are forced by regulators to provide less profitable accessible transport in exchange for being given a monopoly on taxi services. Part of the way that Uber is undercutting the taxi companies is by not providing services to the disabled (or at least not without added cost).
lallysingh 12y ago
The accessible ones probably use more fuel per mile.
sjg007 12y ago
I am sure there will soon be uber accessible.
- 12y ago

binarycrusader 12y ago

no clean-air standards Either the author is attempting to bias their readers or was unintentionally misleading -- California generally requires personal vehicles to be smog tested on a regular basis. I should know; my less than four year old car (at the time) had to be smog tested just this past year.

jliptzin 12y ago

Usually I feel bad for traditional businesses quickly displaced by emerging startups. However, I've been in too many cabs where the driver is constantly on the phone while driving, abusing the speed limit, slamming on the breaks every 8 seconds, foul odors, dirty vehicles, roundabout routes, the list goes on. Good riddance.

eldavido 12y ago
Amen to that. Living here in SF, the customer service aspect of cabs is appalling. I'm tired of getting dirty looks for paying with a credit card, having cabs with their light on and nobody in them drive right by me, playing the "where are you going" game, drivers talking on phones, and general surliness. The day the industry unionized, that pushed me over the edge. I'm now 100% using Uber to get around and my only regret is that I didn't try it sooner - it's awesome.
- lolwutf 12y ago
  Don't forget: Uber and Uber's drivers have been responsible for children's deaths, interfering with the normal course of competitor's business, stuffing blind persons' service dogs in the trunk, price gouging during states of emergencies. All on top of a proprietary, unpublished 'surge pricing' algorithm. I know you think taxis are the devil, but Uber's behavior as a parent company has been downright heinous. Personally, I avoid supporting them, whenever possible, and go with better-acting players in the market like Lyft and Sidecar.
  - hkmurakami 12y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted a bunch for this post (seems like you're just stating facts that have happened, as well as your opinions, albeit in a somewhat negatively biased tone, but nothing out of reason). So here's an upvote. I'd forgotten and/or downplayed these issues and your post made me reconsider and start using Lyft for the first time (been lazy thus far), so thanks for your post. :)
    - 12y ago

raldi 12y ago

I'm going to call this submarine marketing (well, really submarine lobbying) on the part of taxi companies. If they were truly in dire straits, they'd be turning in their medallions and the city would be struggling to find new buyers.

miah_ 12y ago

Yellow Taxi, Green Cab decimated themselves. Living in SF there was one thing you learned quickly: calling the taxi was a complete waste of time. The reason Uber, Lyft, etc won was because they could actually perform a job the taxi's had been failing at for years.

ericfrenkiel 12y ago

Never has creative destruction ever been so enjoyable to observe and partake. For all the waiting in the cold, rude cabbies, cash only bullshit, and lack of availability, to the taxi industry of SF, I say to you: you have only yourselves and SF City Council to blame.

craigyk 12y ago

"decimate", so they reduced it by 10%?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Mandelbug 12y ago
Interestingly, asking Google to define "decimate" returns a modern definition, "kill, destroy, or remove a large percentage or part of", and a historical one, "kill one in every ten of (a group of soldiers or others) as a punishment for the whole group". The English language has apparently moved on.
- hnriot 12y ago
  look at the word root, deci - like decimal, decimeter, etc.
- Jedd 12y ago
  Certain uneducated users of the language may have 'moved on'. Doesn't mean the rest of us should encourage this misuse. The word devastate much better suits the intent here, which would leave decimate to continue meaning something quite specific (and useful).
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Modern Parisians speak the most atrocious Latin, wouldn't you agree?
  - Mandelbug 12y ago
    Honestly I have never really found a situation where I wanted to exactly (or even slightly) mean reduce by 10%. It is too specific of a definition to be truly useful. I find it much more convenient, and useful, to have a word that means the current modern definition of decimate. Perhaps decimate is a poor choice to represent that, but honestly not every word has to sound or have roots that directly relate to the definition of the word. It is more important words are used, rather than languish or die in history books.

sixQuarks 12y ago

I have no sympathy for the SF taxi industry. I can't count the number of times I was left stranded at 2 AM on a friday or saturday night, having to walk home in the rain. It's about time.

pkaye 12y ago

Here is the best I can find on the clean air standards. I think pushing taxi companies to use hybrids, all electric, natural gas vehicles, etc. http://www.sfmta.com/about-sfmta/blog/sf%E2%80%99s-taxis-can-help-you-go-green http://www.sfmta.com/about-sfmta/blog/sf%E2%80%99s-taxis-can...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]