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We (www.lalina.com.br) are a Brazil only startup and have had some success with a different model. Our head office is in NYC (better access to talent) and we ju

by 3327 12y ago

We (www.lalina.com.br) are a Brazil only startup and have had some success with a different model. Our head office is in NYC (better access to talent) and we just opened our office in SP. We are beauty only and a traditional business model. We discovered early on many of the points this article highlights and confirm confirm most of them. Talent is a huge problem in brazil and the startup culture is only in some small circles. Not to mention vc's are very unsophisticated and do not offer much value except for cash and what they read off investment blogs, granted there are a few exceptions.

caio1982 12y ago
That's interesting, thanks. Why do you think the talent pool is a huge problem? Is it about cost? Lacking of skills (if so, which ones are these, for instance)? The best people are already taken or...?
- 3327 12y ago
  Cost is fairly cheap is more about security and vision. No one is really interested in equity just a pay check. Skill is also a problem we are actively trying to hire developers for the SP office but besides .net and php we have had no success finding python / django or some of the modern framework guys. Its like the us in the 90's
  - alansammarone 12y ago
    In case you are interested, i love Python and i am currently looking for new challenges. : )
    - 3327 12y ago
      i really like your blog, fun stuff and i majored in math as well. what is the best way to contact you? How are your skills in django / python?
      - alansammarone 12y ago
        that's cool, thanks :) in case you think that disqualifies me, i didn't major. i am a college dropout (mechanical engineering), but i code since i was 13. my python skills are strong, but my django skills are somewhat rusty. i can learn it pretty fast thought. just mail me at hi@alan.buzz
        3327 12y ago
        no college is not necessary.
        3327 12y ago
        could you please drop an email from lalina.com.br contacto? github and anything you think is relevant. We hire and seek talent based on the a new models and do not care about cv's and standard credentials. If you are on HN its a already a good start.
  - rl12345 12y ago
    It can make sense do grow the biz dev part of the business in the US while hiring the engineers in Brazil - this is what Waze did (replace Brazil with Israel) by the way. In Silicon Valley people refer to this kind of company structure as the "israeli model".
    - 3327 12y ago
      Yes it was a tough sell to investors in the beginning and is anti-lean at mid to early stage. But we saw no work around. By the way our SP space in located in central and we are looking to give space to python and other developers who want to workon startups and ideas.
  - ShaneOG 12y ago
    I feel your pain. I'm currently looking for mid-senior Ruby/Rails devs in SP and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
    - fernandotakai 12y ago
      it seems like everyone is either already working for multinational companies or working as contractors for better pay. btw, i know a couple of guys that are interested in rails work here in SP if you need some help. you can contact me at fernando.takai at gmail.
    - anonymous_ 12y ago
      I'm a senior consultant (mostly rails) and I find much easier to find clients in the US (CA, NY) and Europe than locally. Local rails boutiques are charging $60/h and senior/experienced developers/architects have a hard time finding startups that could afford hiring "competitive" people. p.s. by "competitive" I mean experienced people that could be hired remotely at SF rates.
  - rbanffy 12y ago
    > but besides .net and php we have had no success finding python / django or some of the modern framework guys. I am fairly active in the local Python community (we probably bumped into each other by now) and I think I can help you find the talent you need. Ping me.
    - 3327 12y ago
      That would be fantastic. and I would love to chat. Also our space in SP is fairly large and we are looking to give/ mentor early stage companies. No equity or anything just to do our part and catalyze the scene bit by bit.
  - dcarmo 12y ago
    Question is: are you guys willing to pay decent salary? I've seen this "can't find local work force" talk a lot, but most of them want local work force paying minimum wage (when comparing to other places in the world). About equity: I don't see anything wrong in wanting a pay check. IMO equity is a plus a company can offer employees as a way to help hold talent - not salary substitute.
    - 3327 12y ago
      We are paying very decent. I would say 50% more than what you would typically get. Benefits, vacation, hardware etc...
      - rglullis 12y ago
        Can you please put a number on it? The "benefits, vacation, hardware" part does not mean much, because they are required by Brazilian labor law. My profile: Sr. Developer/Architect with 8+ years experience in Django. I have received (and turned down) offers in São Paulo for R$12.000/month (CLT), to what some people in my network said it would be "good, but not extraordinary". I've heard people saying they were making less, some saying were making more. One of them mentioned he was making R$20k/month CLT, but admittedly he was way out of the curve. In the end, I moved to Berlin, a city that is less expensive than São Paulo and where you can get a €6000/month salary without much trouble, and freelance contracts in the €75-80/hour range. But in short, tell me you are actually paying R$18.000/month and I will send you my CV.
        anonymous_ 12y ago
        Thanks for the numbers. Out of curiosity, out of those who said they were "making more", how many are working in startups? (and not in consulting, public sector, finance, etc)
        rglullis 12y ago
        No startup in the strict sense. On the other hand, the ones working on startups were not getting any equity - it was just that the salaries were lower. But there were a few guys doing Java stuff in BigCos whose salaries were below average. So it is not just a matter of "startup == low salary". Curiously, the one making R$20k/month got the more "startupy" job. He is working at an advertising agency as the "Director of New Businesses in Digital Media". Basically he is in the EIR of an ad agency, creating new products, websites, generating tools and services with a team of 3-4 people that he needs to manage.
  - fernandotakai 12y ago
    funny -- about a year ago i was unemployed and trying to find python/django/twisted/tornado work -- the only one i found was offering me about ~3000 brl/month (no equity. which is quite insulting for someone that has worked with python for the past 7y) so i 100% gave up on trying to find work here in são paulo that paid reasonably well or even with some equity. for me, it's preferable to work as a contactor to an american startup than work for a brazilian startup -- at least the american one knows how much i'm worth and will pay accordingly.
    - 3327 12y ago
      We saw this first hand. So many developers have been jammed and "slaved" with low salaries, managers who understand nothing about development/time ratios that make unreasonable requests that many people we have talked with are just scared to even move out of fear they will loose what they have... Ps if you are interested in full time work please drop us an email and say hi : kaya@lalina.com.br
- alansammarone 12y ago
  Personally, i believe education is the biggest problem around here. Starting at early ages, and going all the way to college, learning, getting involved with what matters and working is just not so common here. I am a college dropout (dropped from mechanical engineering), but i code since i was 13. And i am yet to meet any graduate that loves and/or knows so much about theoretical computer science as i do. People just want a comfortable job, they don't want to, or don't feel like they can, have an impact in the world (of course there are exceptions).
  - giovani 12y ago
    I agree education is a big problem in Brazil. IMO, the main issue is this culture around not asking questions so it won't look like you don't know something. As a consequence, getting involved and going into depth to really learn something just isn't that much encouraged because it would require, well, asking many many questions!
    - marcosdumay 12y ago
      It's not only that. There's the "how do you dare question our assuptions" culture, that's way too widespread. There's a disdain for any display of competence, and punishment of competent people. There's a huge focus on learning theories, with no care at all about empirism. Brazilian education is completely fucked up.

by 3327 12y ago

caio1982 12y ago

That's interesting, thanks. Why do you think the talent pool is a huge problem? Is it about cost? Lacking of skills (if so, which ones are these, for instance)? The best people are already taken or...?

3327 12y ago
Cost is fairly cheap is more about security and vision. No one is really interested in equity just a pay check. Skill is also a problem we are actively trying to hire developers for the SP office but besides .net and php we have had no success finding python / django or some of the modern framework guys. Its like the us in the 90's
- alansammarone 12y ago
  In case you are interested, i love Python and i am currently looking for new challenges. : )
  - 3327 12y ago
    i really like your blog, fun stuff and i majored in math as well. what is the best way to contact you? How are your skills in django / python?
    - alansammarone 12y ago
      that's cool, thanks :) in case you think that disqualifies me, i didn't major. i am a college dropout (mechanical engineering), but i code since i was 13. my python skills are strong, but my django skills are somewhat rusty. i can learn it pretty fast thought. just mail me at hi@alan.buzz
      - 3327 12y ago
        no college is not necessary.
      - 3327 12y ago
        could you please drop an email from lalina.com.br contacto? github and anything you think is relevant. We hire and seek talent based on the a new models and do not care about cv's and standard credentials. If you are on HN its a already a good start.
- rl12345 12y ago
  It can make sense do grow the biz dev part of the business in the US while hiring the engineers in Brazil - this is what Waze did (replace Brazil with Israel) by the way. In Silicon Valley people refer to this kind of company structure as the "israeli model".
  - 3327 12y ago
    Yes it was a tough sell to investors in the beginning and is anti-lean at mid to early stage. But we saw no work around. By the way our SP space in located in central and we are looking to give space to python and other developers who want to workon startups and ideas.
- ShaneOG 12y ago
  I feel your pain. I'm currently looking for mid-senior Ruby/Rails devs in SP and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
  - fernandotakai 12y ago
    it seems like everyone is either already working for multinational companies or working as contractors for better pay. btw, i know a couple of guys that are interested in rails work here in SP if you need some help. you can contact me at fernando.takai at gmail.
  - anonymous_ 12y ago
    I'm a senior consultant (mostly rails) and I find much easier to find clients in the US (CA, NY) and Europe than locally. Local rails boutiques are charging $60/h and senior/experienced developers/architects have a hard time finding startups that could afford hiring "competitive" people. p.s. by "competitive" I mean experienced people that could be hired remotely at SF rates.
- rbanffy 12y ago
  > but besides .net and php we have had no success finding python / django or some of the modern framework guys. I am fairly active in the local Python community (we probably bumped into each other by now) and I think I can help you find the talent you need. Ping me.
  - 3327 12y ago
    That would be fantastic. and I would love to chat. Also our space in SP is fairly large and we are looking to give/ mentor early stage companies. No equity or anything just to do our part and catalyze the scene bit by bit.
- dcarmo 12y ago
  Question is: are you guys willing to pay decent salary? I've seen this "can't find local work force" talk a lot, but most of them want local work force paying minimum wage (when comparing to other places in the world). About equity: I don't see anything wrong in wanting a pay check. IMO equity is a plus a company can offer employees as a way to help hold talent - not salary substitute.
  - 3327 12y ago
    We are paying very decent. I would say 50% more than what you would typically get. Benefits, vacation, hardware etc...
    - rglullis 12y ago
      Can you please put a number on it? The "benefits, vacation, hardware" part does not mean much, because they are required by Brazilian labor law. My profile: Sr. Developer/Architect with 8+ years experience in Django. I have received (and turned down) offers in São Paulo for R$12.000/month (CLT), to what some people in my network said it would be "good, but not extraordinary". I've heard people saying they were making less, some saying were making more. One of them mentioned he was making R$20k/month CLT, but admittedly he was way out of the curve. In the end, I moved to Berlin, a city that is less expensive than São Paulo and where you can get a €6000/month salary without much trouble, and freelance contracts in the €75-80/hour range. But in short, tell me you are actually paying R$18.000/month and I will send you my CV.
      - anonymous_ 12y ago
        Thanks for the numbers. Out of curiosity, out of those who said they were "making more", how many are working in startups? (and not in consulting, public sector, finance, etc)
        rglullis 12y ago
        No startup in the strict sense. On the other hand, the ones working on startups were not getting any equity - it was just that the salaries were lower. But there were a few guys doing Java stuff in BigCos whose salaries were below average. So it is not just a matter of "startup == low salary". Curiously, the one making R$20k/month got the more "startupy" job. He is working at an advertising agency as the "Director of New Businesses in Digital Media". Basically he is in the EIR of an ad agency, creating new products, websites, generating tools and services with a team of 3-4 people that he needs to manage.
- fernandotakai 12y ago
  funny -- about a year ago i was unemployed and trying to find python/django/twisted/tornado work -- the only one i found was offering me about ~3000 brl/month (no equity. which is quite insulting for someone that has worked with python for the past 7y) so i 100% gave up on trying to find work here in são paulo that paid reasonably well or even with some equity. for me, it's preferable to work as a contactor to an american startup than work for a brazilian startup -- at least the american one knows how much i'm worth and will pay accordingly.
  - 3327 12y ago
    We saw this first hand. So many developers have been jammed and "slaved" with low salaries, managers who understand nothing about development/time ratios that make unreasonable requests that many people we have talked with are just scared to even move out of fear they will loose what they have... Ps if you are interested in full time work please drop us an email and say hi : kaya@lalina.com.br
alansammarone 12y ago
Personally, i believe education is the biggest problem around here. Starting at early ages, and going all the way to college, learning, getting involved with what matters and working is just not so common here. I am a college dropout (dropped from mechanical engineering), but i code since i was 13. And i am yet to meet any graduate that loves and/or knows so much about theoretical computer science as i do. People just want a comfortable job, they don't want to, or don't feel like they can, have an impact in the world (of course there are exceptions).
- giovani 12y ago
  I agree education is a big problem in Brazil. IMO, the main issue is this culture around not asking questions so it won't look like you don't know something. As a consequence, getting involved and going into depth to really learn something just isn't that much encouraged because it would require, well, asking many many questions!
  - marcosdumay 12y ago
    It's not only that. There's the "how do you dare question our assuptions" culture, that's way too widespread. There's a disdain for any display of competence, and punishment of competent people. There's a huge focus on learning theories, with no care at all about empirism. Brazilian education is completely fucked up.