6 ms·

A Star in a Bottle – The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor

107 points by Thevet 12y ago

throwaway344 12y ago
There has been a previous discussion, if interested, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7291008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7291008
jdiez17 12y ago
Very rarely do I read every word in an article posted here, but this was one of those times and I'm glad I did. The article itself was very well written. You could feel the tension engineers must feel and the mind-numbing scale of the project. I think it captured the atmosphere at ITER very well; a mix of impending doom and unescapable existential claustrophobia counterpoised by a sense of mission.
ufmace 12y ago
Awesome article. But I gotta wonder - given the sheer size and cost of the ITER reactor, it's hard to see how we'll ever be able to build a commercial version of the reactor that's competitive with anything conventional. I don't suppose anyone here has any insight on that?
- johlindenbaum 12y ago
  I'm going to assume the cost is the novel research behind this. Trying to create fusion in the first place has been researched for decades. If this works, and they can do it at scale, a new reactor wouldn't have the same cost as all the previous research attached to it.
- uberstuber 12y ago
  The tokamak is the fusion community's choice of device for getting energy out of a fusion reactor, but smaller configurations may also be promising. There's talk of exploring compact fusion configurations as a faster path to commercial viability; many private companies in North America are working on compact fusion and Lockheed's Skunkworks has expressed interest. Smaller size of these devices means research and operating costs are lower. The end product might be something more easily integrated into power grids (~100MW versus ~1GW of DEMO) and would hopefully have a competitive cost of electricity. Path to Market for Compact Fusion Cores: http://fire.pppl.gov/FESAC_WP_Path2Mark_SWood.pdf http://fire.pppl.gov/FESAC_WP_Path2Mark_SWood.pdf http://www.icosa.co/2013/02/lockheed-skunkworks-develops-compact-fusion/ http://www.icosa.co/2013/02/lockheed-skunkworks-develops-com...
- keeperofdakeys 12y ago
  Besides the whole prototype status, ITER itself also has many problems which conflate the cost (and time) required to build. Every country involved wants to make a "significant" contribution, so you get many parts built in different countries, which may need to tool themselves to build these parts, and that need to later fit together. I even think one part had to be rejected because it didn't fit the rest. The scale is also crazy, inside the tokamak the magnets can push against each other with forces twice that which the space shuttle's launch creates http://www.iter.org/newsline/269/1593 http://www.iter.org/newsline/269/1593 Once ITER is built though, and if it works, then we'll have the knowledge, and tooling required to make more of the parts to build a second (and that knowledge and tooling is spread amongst many countries). The cost will decrease a lot for the first few, and much more after.
- jpalomaki 12y ago
  The article also made me wonder how much of the cost is just due to the way the project is managed and split for multiple countries? One example from the article: "A single manufacturer should build ITER’s vacuum chamber, a high-precision device that must operate with perfect symmetry. Instead, it will be constructed in nine segments, two in Korea and the rest in Europe. The design calls for certain features to be welded, but the Europeans decided to use bolts, which are cheaper."
- ZoFreX 12y ago
  There's a plan to get from ITER to a commercial version. Next in line after ITER is "DEMO", which will have higher output and actually produce power (ITER will just vent off the heat). PROTO would then build further on the first two, further refining all the improvements made along the way, to provide a template for building commercially viable fusion power stations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMO
ufmace 12y ago
Found a current picture of the reactor: https://www.iter.org/doc/all/content/com/img_galleries/final_pour_b2_270814_15_small.jpg https://www.iter.org/doc/all/content/com/img_galleries/final... The project's main website looks pretty cool too: https://www.iter.org/ https://www.iter.org/
bane 12y ago
Tying two threads together "So far, the vast machine exists only as 1.8 terabytes of digital information..." A 512GB SD card was on the front page here today, 4 of those would hold all the plans for powering the planet for the next 30 million years. That's basically the size of half a playing card. After reading the article, I wonder if the real issue to building something like this is as much a managerial science problem as it is a hard science problem. Complex endeavors like this should be hotbeds of social science research.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
uberstuber 12y ago
Neat in-vessel assembly video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt70mO2nQac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt70mO2nQac
- jonah 12y ago
  That really illustrates the scale of the operation.
- chii 12y ago
  wow, that's some hugely complex build mechanism. A lot of the cost of building it is going to go into the design, and manufacture of scaffolds, and custom struts etc, just for the conveyor belt. Would it have been cheaper to not have the assembly done in such a fashion?
  - adwf 12y ago
    From what I remember, they need absolutely crazy tight tolerances in every single join and gap. Something like <0.1mm for every component involved in the reaction chamber. And it's huge too. Otherwise the whole thing will start falling apart as soon as they turn it on. I imagine that's what's requiring the unusual build mechanisms.
jessriedel 12y ago
When I read this article, I was blown away by this passage: > Typically, outsiders cannot comprehend how the massive expenditures never manage to yield energy. Typically, insiders cannot comprehend how little is being invested in a project that presents such immense technical obstacles and also such potential. A graph commonly passed around among the insiders—an enduring scrap of twentieth-century budgetary ephemera—depicts the 1976 federal plan to build a working thermonuclear reactor. The graph tracks various scenarios for attaining fusion energy. The “maximum” effort, the most expensive up front, with initial spending as high as nine billion dollars a year, was projected to yield a reactor by 1990. The “moderate” effort, with spending never exceeding four billion dollars in a year, would take fifteen more years. The fusion community might be easy to criticize for its many unmet milestones, but for decades the United States has never come close to even the moderate effort. In 1977, when the American fusion budget was at its peak, government investment in the research, adjusted for inflation, was seven hundred million dollars; by 1991, this had fallen by more than half. It is now half a billion, not appreciably more than the Korean budget. The chart was produced by Energy Research and Development Administration (ERDA), which was later subsumed into the Department of Energy and presumably represented the expert wisdom at the time. (Please correct me if you have info that most experts were in fact more optimistic.) It can be found, in 1976 dollars, as figure 1 here: http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Winter_2009/Who_Killed_Fusion.pdf http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Winter_2... I am having a hard time getting over the importance of this. For all the discussion of global warming, energy prices, population crunches, etc., etc., fusion is always ignored as a solution for the simple reason that people think it's unfeasibly costly. And they think that only because they think it's had a history of being grossly more expensive than promised. But if we've really known how much it would cost to get commercial fusion power since 1976, then this reasoning is completely faulty. So then if we just haven't spent the modest amount of money on it...isn't this insane? Someone please tell me what I'm missing.
- callesgg 12y ago
  Well it might eventually be shown that it is just to unstable to be usable. It is a big gamble to put money in to unproven stuff, if money was not a parameter global warming could be fixed whenever we wanted.
nickodell 12y ago
>Thirty-five countries, representing more than half the world’s population, are invested in the project, which is so complex to finance that it requires its own currency: the ITER Unit of Account. Oh lord. This is a perfect example of a bike-shed problem. They couldn't agree to use one country's currency or another, so now they're doing it in a totally custom currency.
- Terr_ 12y ago
  > > so complex to finance that it requires its own currency > This is a perfect example of a bike-shed problem. I disagree, I think your post is a perfect example of the "anything I don't understand outside my field must be easy" problem. http://xkcd.com/793/ http://xkcd.com/793/
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
FiatLuxDave 12y ago
Excellent article. I worked in fusion years ago and I even learned a few things about the politics of the ITER team that I did not know. The comparison with Apollo or the Manhattan Project always comes up when discussing ITER. I truly hope that when it all comes together, that it is more of a Manhattan than an Apollo. The difference being, that once we built one atomic bomb, we kept building more and more and now it seems we may never be rid of them. Whereas with Apollo, we harnessed the political will to land on the Moon (multiple times even!) but once the political will dropped away, so did the path to the Moon, because Saturn Vs don't come cheap. If ITER ignites, but does not result in a path to cheaper, commercial use of fusion energy, then the next few generations may be in the same position with regards to fusion energy as my generation has been to space exploration. This is why I tend to fall in Bob Hirsch's camp with regards to the faster, cheaper, smaller development of multiple fusion reactor concepts. Imagine if instead of developing the Saturn V for Apollo, that NASA had gone for many concepts from big rockets (e.g. Saturn V) to air launches (e.g. Pegasus) to suborbital balloons (e.g. JP aerospace) to space guns (e.g. HARP). Sure, the Russians would probably have beaten us to the Moon, but if a cheaper alternative to space launch had been found back when it was a national priority, we might have a Moonbase today. The thing about gathering political will is that you have to have a clear target. The dangerous thing in the case of ITER, is that once that target (ignition) is achieved, the political will to do more beyond that goal may not be there. And ITER ignition alone does not answer our energy issues.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  Is that Robert Hirsch of SAIC? References?
  - FiatLuxDave 12y ago
    Yes, that is correct. Long before he was known for his views on Peak Oil (which I'm not really in agreement with), he was known for his work in fusion. I find it interesting that his wikipedia page shows little detail about his early career. Here are some references: http://www.aero.umd.edu/html/sedwick/presentations/S9P1_Robert_Hirsch_Talk.pdf http://www.aero.umd.edu/html/sedwick/presentations/S9P1_Robe... http://www.issues.org/13.4/hirsch.htm http://www.issues.org/13.4/hirsch.htm http://fire.pppl.gov/fusion_critic_response_stacey.pdf http://fire.pppl.gov/fusion_critic_response_stacey.pdf (section V)

107 points by Thevet 12y ago

There has been a previous discussion, if interested, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7291008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7291008

jdiez17 12y ago

Very rarely do I read every word in an article posted here, but this was one of those times and I'm glad I did. The article itself was very well written. You could feel the tension engineers must feel and the mind-numbing scale of the project. I think it captured the atmosphere at ITER very well; a mix of impending doom and unescapable existential claustrophobia counterpoised by a sense of mission.

ufmace 12y ago

Awesome article. But I gotta wonder - given the sheer size and cost of the ITER reactor, it's hard to see how we'll ever be able to build a commercial version of the reactor that's competitive with anything conventional. I don't suppose anyone here has any insight on that?

johlindenbaum 12y ago
I'm going to assume the cost is the novel research behind this. Trying to create fusion in the first place has been researched for decades. If this works, and they can do it at scale, a new reactor wouldn't have the same cost as all the previous research attached to it.
uberstuber 12y ago
The tokamak is the fusion community's choice of device for getting energy out of a fusion reactor, but smaller configurations may also be promising. There's talk of exploring compact fusion configurations as a faster path to commercial viability; many private companies in North America are working on compact fusion and Lockheed's Skunkworks has expressed interest. Smaller size of these devices means research and operating costs are lower. The end product might be something more easily integrated into power grids (~100MW versus ~1GW of DEMO) and would hopefully have a competitive cost of electricity. Path to Market for Compact Fusion Cores: http://fire.pppl.gov/FESAC_WP_Path2Mark_SWood.pdf http://fire.pppl.gov/FESAC_WP_Path2Mark_SWood.pdf http://www.icosa.co/2013/02/lockheed-skunkworks-develops-compact-fusion/ http://www.icosa.co/2013/02/lockheed-skunkworks-develops-com...
keeperofdakeys 12y ago
Besides the whole prototype status, ITER itself also has many problems which conflate the cost (and time) required to build. Every country involved wants to make a "significant" contribution, so you get many parts built in different countries, which may need to tool themselves to build these parts, and that need to later fit together. I even think one part had to be rejected because it didn't fit the rest. The scale is also crazy, inside the tokamak the magnets can push against each other with forces twice that which the space shuttle's launch creates http://www.iter.org/newsline/269/1593 http://www.iter.org/newsline/269/1593 Once ITER is built though, and if it works, then we'll have the knowledge, and tooling required to make more of the parts to build a second (and that knowledge and tooling is spread amongst many countries). The cost will decrease a lot for the first few, and much more after.
jpalomaki 12y ago
The article also made me wonder how much of the cost is just due to the way the project is managed and split for multiple countries? One example from the article: "A single manufacturer should build ITER’s vacuum chamber, a high-precision device that must operate with perfect symmetry. Instead, it will be constructed in nine segments, two in Korea and the rest in Europe. The design calls for certain features to be welded, but the Europeans decided to use bolts, which are cheaper."
ZoFreX 12y ago
There's a plan to get from ITER to a commercial version. Next in line after ITER is "DEMO", which will have higher output and actually produce power (ITER will just vent off the heat). PROTO would then build further on the first two, further refining all the improvements made along the way, to provide a template for building commercially viable fusion power stations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMO

ufmace 12y ago

Found a current picture of the reactor: https://www.iter.org/doc/all/content/com/img_galleries/final_pour_b2_270814_15_small.jpg https://www.iter.org/doc/all/content/com/img_galleries/final... The project's main website looks pretty cool too: https://www.iter.org/ https://www.iter.org/

bane 12y ago

Tying two threads together "So far, the vast machine exists only as 1.8 terabytes of digital information..." A 512GB SD card was on the front page here today, 4 of those would hold all the plans for powering the planet for the next 30 million years. That's basically the size of half a playing card. After reading the article, I wonder if the real issue to building something like this is as much a managerial science problem as it is a hard science problem. Complex endeavors like this should be hotbeds of social science research.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

uberstuber 12y ago

Neat in-vessel assembly video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt70mO2nQac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt70mO2nQac

jonah 12y ago
That really illustrates the scale of the operation.
chii 12y ago
wow, that's some hugely complex build mechanism. A lot of the cost of building it is going to go into the design, and manufacture of scaffolds, and custom struts etc, just for the conveyor belt. Would it have been cheaper to not have the assembly done in such a fashion?
- adwf 12y ago
  From what I remember, they need absolutely crazy tight tolerances in every single join and gap. Something like <0.1mm for every component involved in the reaction chamber. And it's huge too. Otherwise the whole thing will start falling apart as soon as they turn it on. I imagine that's what's requiring the unusual build mechanisms.

jessriedel 12y ago

When I read this article, I was blown away by this passage: > Typically, outsiders cannot comprehend how the massive expenditures never manage to yield energy. Typically, insiders cannot comprehend how little is being invested in a project that presents such immense technical obstacles and also such potential. A graph commonly passed around among the insiders—an enduring scrap of twentieth-century budgetary ephemera—depicts the 1976 federal plan to build a working thermonuclear reactor. The graph tracks various scenarios for attaining fusion energy. The “maximum” effort, the most expensive up front, with initial spending as high as nine billion dollars a year, was projected to yield a reactor by 1990. The “moderate” effort, with spending never exceeding four billion dollars in a year, would take fifteen more years. The fusion community might be easy to criticize for its many unmet milestones, but for decades the United States has never come close to even the moderate effort. In 1977, when the American fusion budget was at its peak, government investment in the research, adjusted for inflation, was seven hundred million dollars; by 1991, this had fallen by more than half. It is now half a billion, not appreciably more than the Korean budget. The chart was produced by Energy Research and Development Administration (ERDA), which was later subsumed into the Department of Energy and presumably represented the expert wisdom at the time. (Please correct me if you have info that most experts were in fact more optimistic.) It can be found, in 1976 dollars, as figure 1 here: http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Winter_2009/Who_Killed_Fusion.pdf http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Winter_2... I am having a hard time getting over the importance of this. For all the discussion of global warming, energy prices, population crunches, etc., etc., fusion is always ignored as a solution for the simple reason that people think it's unfeasibly costly. And they think that only because they think it's had a history of being grossly more expensive than promised. But if we've really known how much it would cost to get commercial fusion power since 1976, then this reasoning is completely faulty. So then if we just haven't spent the modest amount of money on it...isn't this insane? Someone please tell me what I'm missing.

callesgg 12y ago
Well it might eventually be shown that it is just to unstable to be usable. It is a big gamble to put money in to unproven stuff, if money was not a parameter global warming could be fixed whenever we wanted.

nickodell 12y ago

>Thirty-five countries, representing more than half the world’s population, are invested in the project, which is so complex to finance that it requires its own currency: the ITER Unit of Account. Oh lord. This is a perfect example of a bike-shed problem. They couldn't agree to use one country's currency or another, so now they're doing it in a totally custom currency.

Terr_ 12y ago
> > so complex to finance that it requires its own currency > This is a perfect example of a bike-shed problem. I disagree, I think your post is a perfect example of the "anything I don't understand outside my field must be easy" problem. http://xkcd.com/793/ http://xkcd.com/793/

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

FiatLuxDave 12y ago

Excellent article. I worked in fusion years ago and I even learned a few things about the politics of the ITER team that I did not know. The comparison with Apollo or the Manhattan Project always comes up when discussing ITER. I truly hope that when it all comes together, that it is more of a Manhattan than an Apollo. The difference being, that once we built one atomic bomb, we kept building more and more and now it seems we may never be rid of them. Whereas with Apollo, we harnessed the political will to land on the Moon (multiple times even!) but once the political will dropped away, so did the path to the Moon, because Saturn Vs don't come cheap. If ITER ignites, but does not result in a path to cheaper, commercial use of fusion energy, then the next few generations may be in the same position with regards to fusion energy as my generation has been to space exploration. This is why I tend to fall in Bob Hirsch's camp with regards to the faster, cheaper, smaller development of multiple fusion reactor concepts. Imagine if instead of developing the Saturn V for Apollo, that NASA had gone for many concepts from big rockets (e.g. Saturn V) to air launches (e.g. Pegasus) to suborbital balloons (e.g. JP aerospace) to space guns (e.g. HARP). Sure, the Russians would probably have beaten us to the Moon, but if a cheaper alternative to space launch had been found back when it was a national priority, we might have a Moonbase today. The thing about gathering political will is that you have to have a clear target. The dangerous thing in the case of ITER, is that once that target (ignition) is achieved, the political will to do more beyond that goal may not be there. And ITER ignition alone does not answer our energy issues.

dredmorbius 12y ago
Is that Robert Hirsch of SAIC? References?
- FiatLuxDave 12y ago
  Yes, that is correct. Long before he was known for his views on Peak Oil (which I'm not really in agreement with), he was known for his work in fusion. I find it interesting that his wikipedia page shows little detail about his early career. Here are some references: http://www.aero.umd.edu/html/sedwick/presentations/S9P1_Robert_Hirsch_Talk.pdf http://www.aero.umd.edu/html/sedwick/presentations/S9P1_Robe... http://www.issues.org/13.4/hirsch.htm http://www.issues.org/13.4/hirsch.htm http://fire.pppl.gov/fusion_critic_response_stacey.pdf http://fire.pppl.gov/fusion_critic_response_stacey.pdf (section V)