7 ms·

Brain 'can classify words during sleep'

86 points by mbeissinger 12y ago

walterbell 12y ago
> Once asleep, a new list of words was tested on participants to ensure that the brain had to work out the meaning of the words before classifying them using the buttons. Their brain activity showed they continued to respond accurately, the researchers said, although it happened more slowly. EEG-based interrogation of sleeping people?!
- gouggoug 12y ago
  I'm wondering the same thing. The article is rather vague about how they gave "a new list of words to participants" while they were sleeping...
  - walterbell 12y ago
    If OpenBCI ships soon, people can try this at home :) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openbci/openbci-an-open-source-brain-computer-interface-fo https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openbci/openbci-an-open...
    - liamshaw 12y ago
      That is bloody awesome!
    - jbarrow 12y ago
      You can preorder now and they'll ship soon. The consensus is that they're a little pricey, though: [1] http://openbci.com http://openbci.com
biomimic 12y ago
Similar to: http://admin.infrno.net/startup_job_explorer/api.html http://admin.infrno.net/startup_job_explorer/api.html
jrapdx3 12y ago
Seems like a "filler" piece, not much info there. Sleep isn't "on/off", but normally goes through levels of consciousness from wakefulness to unaware. Not surprisingly we might be able to handle a simple task. I remember a time when I was "on call". The phone rang at 04:00. It wound up being a long discussion, necessary to manage a complex problem. Strangely, when I got to work I had no recollection at all of what happened overnight, and stunned when I found out what I'd done (correctly too). Handling a few words wouldn't be such a big deal.
junto 12y ago
I remember when I first moved to Germany from the UK. I was immersed in a foreign language and my brain was constantly telling me I needed to go to sleep, especially after social occasions where the language input was extreme. I pictured my brain sorting out words and linkages as I slept. Makes sense for the brain to require partial downtime for a index reorganisation.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  And garbage collection.
  - junto 12y ago
    Lol. Yes and garbage collection. Funnily enough I'm now at the stage where certain German expressions and mannerisms have started to surplant my native British English ones. Germans often have one word for something where in English you need a whole sentence. Somehow these words creep into your vocabulary and merge across the language boundaries.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      'schadenfreude'.
      - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
        Epicaricacy.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        Good luck using that in everyday light conversation. The required explanation will likely be longer than if you had used 'schadenfreude' in an English conversation! And 'Epicaricacy' fortunately doesn't sound nearly as trendy and intellectual as a German word would.
    - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
      >Germans often have one word for something where in English you need a whole sentence. // Something tells me there's a word for that, concision (or brevity or conciseness). But something auf Deutsch would me more trendy and intellectual sounding ...
walterbell 12y ago
Journal paper, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214009944 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214... "This study uncovers a promising avenue to study nonconscious processes ... although sleeping participants may continue to process information in a goal-oriented manner, this task set is presumably maintained without the participant being conscious of it ... studying sleep in this context allows pushing further the limits and extents of nonconscious processes and establishing the properties of a broader and more natural type of cognitive unconscious." Another article, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140911125806.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140911125806.ht... "The study also extends earlier work on subliminal processing by showing that speech processing and other complex tasks "can be done not only without being aware of what you perceive, but [also] without being aware at all." Kouider suspects that such unconscious processing isn't limited by the complexity of the task, but by whether it can be made automatic or not."
hooande 12y ago
Any task that could become automated could be maintained during sleep, he said. So someone who is highly trained could continue to work while they are asleep. ie, an expert stock broker could classify market data (as interpreted by EEG readings) throughout the night. Interesting, and a bit worrisome to think that some corporations could use this technology to get 16 hour days out of employees. I am interested in the idea of continuing to "work" while sleeping. I've read anecdotes about people who solve technical problems in their dreams and the concept of getting a few more mental hours out of the day is very appealing. Time is arguably the most valuable resource and anything that can create more of it has potential to have a big impact. Hopefully this early result will turn into something bigger, ideally some kind of technology that allows people to communicate with themselves while sleeping. For that, I would pay a lot. edit: Also, does this method have any value as a lie detector? Someone could ask a target true or false questions and record their EEG readings, and then ask a different set of questions while the target is asleep. Even the most skilled liar might not be able to deceive while unconscious.
- irremediable 12y ago
  > I've read anecdotes about people who solve technical problems in their dreams and the concept of getting a few more mental hours out of the day is very appealing. Have you never experienced it? I've found it's very common that I'll sleep on a problem and have solutions in the morning.
  - totalrobe 12y ago
    When I was a kid I was stuck on a puzzle in "Ecco the Dolphin" (for the Sega Game Gear). I woke up suddenly in the middle of the night after I got through the puzzle while dreaming. Beat the whole game by morning.
  - RobAley 12y ago
    I've experienced it occasionally. More often, I've (at least had the impression that I've) solved it in the night, been aware of solving it, and then forgotten the solution by morning.
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
As somebody with a sleep disorder, I've suspected this for some time. I think you keep on thinking while sleeping (at the higher levels), it's just a bit dissociative and you don't remember any of it. In fact, that's probably where you can do a lot of your best creative work. Many times I'll "solve" a problem while deep in sleep, think to myself "Hey! I just solved this! I need to remember." then forget completely the next day -- only to come around to the solution again later on, seemingly on my own. Sleep is a very strange process.
- jryan49 12y ago
  I'll create or solve some problem in my sleep and think it's the best thing since sliced bread, then wake up to find the idea not as amazing as I had thought it was.
Aqueous 12y ago
Seems pretty obvious considering words spoken to a sleeping person can be incorporated into their dream - and the only way to do that is through classification
- walterbell 12y ago
  Are there any references you would recommend on spoken words influencing dreams?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
ashwinne 12y ago
What a surprise! I wrote a short story last year about the exact same phenomenon: http://daariga.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/the-dream-worker/ http://daariga.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/the-dream-worker/ Quite a shock to see it being found to be true as a research finding. Many of the details in the story matched so closely to the research methodology that I still cannot believe this is happening :-)
- doctoboggan 12y ago
  Excellent story, it reminded me of The Circle, where the main character does similar absentminded work but while awake and also doing other tasks. My favorite line was: > Looking around curiously at the other passengers, she wondered how many of them were trading in their dreams for small change.
ericgj 12y ago
Shouldn't they be studying how we can get more restful sleep rather than fantasizing about extracting more work out of us? I don't consider it 'productive' (much less healthy) when I spend the night grinding on some technical problem. The Mendeleev anecdote and 'solving problems in your sleep' are about something entirely different, to me.
lazyant 12y ago
I've "solved problems" (more like getting a breakthrough idea) during my sleep so yes I'm sure your brain can do a lot during sleep
- georgemcbay 12y ago
  Yep, same with me. My subconscious brain is way better than my waking brain when it comes to untangling problems where there are more than about 4 or 5 levels of abstraction/indirection. It is pretty common for me to be dealing with some hairy issue that spans multiple levels and then go to sleep and wake up with the seemingly obvious answer. Even without sleep I can often get similar results by just going for a long walk while listening to music and specifically not "thinking" (consciously) about the problem that is vexing me. When there are lots of layers to a problem (and I basically understand all the layers but have trouble following all of the indirections), the less I "think" about the problem (consciously), the easier the solution comes.
calebm 12y ago
How about a "Classifying@Home" (similar to Folding@Home) - you wear an EEG helmet while you sleep to offload "unused" brain cycles to classify words for science! :)

86 points by mbeissinger 12y ago

> Once asleep, a new list of words was tested on participants to ensure that the brain had to work out the meaning of the words before classifying them using the buttons. Their brain activity showed they continued to respond accurately, the researchers said, although it happened more slowly. EEG-based interrogation of sleeping people?!

gouggoug 12y ago
I'm wondering the same thing. The article is rather vague about how they gave "a new list of words to participants" while they were sleeping...
- walterbell 12y ago
  If OpenBCI ships soon, people can try this at home :) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openbci/openbci-an-open-source-brain-computer-interface-fo https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openbci/openbci-an-open...
  - liamshaw 12y ago
    That is bloody awesome!
  - jbarrow 12y ago
    You can preorder now and they'll ship soon. The consensus is that they're a little pricey, though: [1] http://openbci.com http://openbci.com

biomimic 12y ago

Similar to: http://admin.infrno.net/startup_job_explorer/api.html http://admin.infrno.net/startup_job_explorer/api.html

jrapdx3 12y ago

Seems like a "filler" piece, not much info there. Sleep isn't "on/off", but normally goes through levels of consciousness from wakefulness to unaware. Not surprisingly we might be able to handle a simple task. I remember a time when I was "on call". The phone rang at 04:00. It wound up being a long discussion, necessary to manage a complex problem. Strangely, when I got to work I had no recollection at all of what happened overnight, and stunned when I found out what I'd done (correctly too). Handling a few words wouldn't be such a big deal.

junto 12y ago

I remember when I first moved to Germany from the UK. I was immersed in a foreign language and my brain was constantly telling me I needed to go to sleep, especially after social occasions where the language input was extreme. I pictured my brain sorting out words and linkages as I slept. Makes sense for the brain to require partial downtime for a index reorganisation.

jacquesm 12y ago
And garbage collection.
- junto 12y ago
  Lol. Yes and garbage collection. Funnily enough I'm now at the stage where certain German expressions and mannerisms have started to surplant my native British English ones. Germans often have one word for something where in English you need a whole sentence. Somehow these words creep into your vocabulary and merge across the language boundaries.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    'schadenfreude'.
    - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
      Epicaricacy.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        Good luck using that in everyday light conversation. The required explanation will likely be longer than if you had used 'schadenfreude' in an English conversation! And 'Epicaricacy' fortunately doesn't sound nearly as trendy and intellectual as a German word would.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    >Germans often have one word for something where in English you need a whole sentence. // Something tells me there's a word for that, concision (or brevity or conciseness). But something auf Deutsch would me more trendy and intellectual sounding ...

walterbell 12y ago

Journal paper, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214009944 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214... "This study uncovers a promising avenue to study nonconscious processes ... although sleeping participants may continue to process information in a goal-oriented manner, this task set is presumably maintained without the participant being conscious of it ... studying sleep in this context allows pushing further the limits and extents of nonconscious processes and establishing the properties of a broader and more natural type of cognitive unconscious." Another article, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140911125806.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140911125806.ht... "The study also extends earlier work on subliminal processing by showing that speech processing and other complex tasks "can be done not only without being aware of what you perceive, but [also] without being aware at all." Kouider suspects that such unconscious processing isn't limited by the complexity of the task, but by whether it can be made automatic or not."

hooande 12y ago

Any task that could become automated could be maintained during sleep, he said. So someone who is highly trained could continue to work while they are asleep. ie, an expert stock broker could classify market data (as interpreted by EEG readings) throughout the night. Interesting, and a bit worrisome to think that some corporations could use this technology to get 16 hour days out of employees. I am interested in the idea of continuing to "work" while sleeping. I've read anecdotes about people who solve technical problems in their dreams and the concept of getting a few more mental hours out of the day is very appealing. Time is arguably the most valuable resource and anything that can create more of it has potential to have a big impact. Hopefully this early result will turn into something bigger, ideally some kind of technology that allows people to communicate with themselves while sleeping. For that, I would pay a lot. edit: Also, does this method have any value as a lie detector? Someone could ask a target true or false questions and record their EEG readings, and then ask a different set of questions while the target is asleep. Even the most skilled liar might not be able to deceive while unconscious.

irremediable 12y ago
> I've read anecdotes about people who solve technical problems in their dreams and the concept of getting a few more mental hours out of the day is very appealing. Have you never experienced it? I've found it's very common that I'll sleep on a problem and have solutions in the morning.
- totalrobe 12y ago
  When I was a kid I was stuck on a puzzle in "Ecco the Dolphin" (for the Sega Game Gear). I woke up suddenly in the middle of the night after I got through the puzzle while dreaming. Beat the whole game by morning.
- RobAley 12y ago
  I've experienced it occasionally. More often, I've (at least had the impression that I've) solved it in the night, been aware of solving it, and then forgotten the solution by morning.

DanielBMarkham 12y ago

As somebody with a sleep disorder, I've suspected this for some time. I think you keep on thinking while sleeping (at the higher levels), it's just a bit dissociative and you don't remember any of it. In fact, that's probably where you can do a lot of your best creative work. Many times I'll "solve" a problem while deep in sleep, think to myself "Hey! I just solved this! I need to remember." then forget completely the next day -- only to come around to the solution again later on, seemingly on my own. Sleep is a very strange process.

jryan49 12y ago
I'll create or solve some problem in my sleep and think it's the best thing since sliced bread, then wake up to find the idea not as amazing as I had thought it was.

Aqueous 12y ago

Seems pretty obvious considering words spoken to a sleeping person can be incorporated into their dream - and the only way to do that is through classification

walterbell 12y ago
Are there any references you would recommend on spoken words influencing dreams?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

ashwinne 12y ago

What a surprise! I wrote a short story last year about the exact same phenomenon: http://daariga.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/the-dream-worker/ http://daariga.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/the-dream-worker/ Quite a shock to see it being found to be true as a research finding. Many of the details in the story matched so closely to the research methodology that I still cannot believe this is happening :-)

doctoboggan 12y ago
Excellent story, it reminded me of The Circle, where the main character does similar absentminded work but while awake and also doing other tasks. My favorite line was: > Looking around curiously at the other passengers, she wondered how many of them were trading in their dreams for small change.

ericgj 12y ago

Shouldn't they be studying how we can get more restful sleep rather than fantasizing about extracting more work out of us? I don't consider it 'productive' (much less healthy) when I spend the night grinding on some technical problem. The Mendeleev anecdote and 'solving problems in your sleep' are about something entirely different, to me.

lazyant 12y ago

I've "solved problems" (more like getting a breakthrough idea) during my sleep so yes I'm sure your brain can do a lot during sleep

georgemcbay 12y ago
Yep, same with me. My subconscious brain is way better than my waking brain when it comes to untangling problems where there are more than about 4 or 5 levels of abstraction/indirection. It is pretty common for me to be dealing with some hairy issue that spans multiple levels and then go to sleep and wake up with the seemingly obvious answer. Even without sleep I can often get similar results by just going for a long walk while listening to music and specifically not "thinking" (consciously) about the problem that is vexing me. When there are lots of layers to a problem (and I basically understand all the layers but have trouble following all of the indirections), the less I "think" about the problem (consciously), the easier the solution comes.

calebm 12y ago

How about a "Classifying@Home" (similar to Folding@Home) - you wear an EEG helmet while you sleep to offload "unused" brain cycles to classify words for science! :)