7 ms·

I've been wondering if any agency in the US government has been using DNA databases to do "genetic triangulation"--and if not, when they'll start. I'm in 23and

by IvyMike 12y ago

I've been wondering if any agency in the US government has been using DNA databases to do "genetic triangulation"--and if not, when they'll start. I'm in 23andme, and I get messages saying "someone who is your 4th/5th/6th cousin wants to connect" all the time. I figure if I was given a bit of DNA from a crime scene, by cross-referencing all of the 4th,5th, and 6th cousins, the number of potential people matching that DNA has got to be tiny. Science fiction dystopias used to hypothesize a complete DNA database but I'm pretty sure even the spotty coverage we have now is pretty powerful.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
CODIS already does familial searching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_DNA_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_DNA_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/familial-searching http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/fam... http://www.innocenceproject.org/docs/FamilialSearchPolicyFinal.pdf http://www.innocenceproject.org/docs/FamilialSearchPolicyFin... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253037/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253037/
mendort 12y ago
Well, we know that CIA was doing something like it in Pakistan. It would be a little surprising if the FBI didn't the potential for the technology.
- duaneb 12y ago
  > Well, we know that CIA was doing something like it in Pakistan. Wow, got a source for that?
  - edent 12y ago
    > Genetic material obtained through a fake door-to-door hepatitis B vaccination programme reportedly helped the CIA confirm Bin Laden's whereabouts in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad. http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27489045 http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27489045
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - qohen 12y ago
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/world/asia/12dna.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/world/asia/12dna.html In the months before Osama bin Laden was killed, the Central Intelligence Agency ran a phony vaccination program in Abbottabad, Pakistan, as a ruse to obtain DNA evidence from members of Bin Laden’s family thought to be holed up in an expansive compound there, according to an American official.
    - qohen 12y ago
      BTW, it appears the CIA has committed to not doing that sort of thing again, as a result of complaints from the public health community about this operation: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/19/politics/cia-vaccination/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/19/politics/cia-vaccination/ A newly disclosed CIA policy mandates that it won't use vaccination programs as part of its operations, according to the Obama administration. The directive by CIA Director John Brennan, made nine months ago but only coming to light now, followed concerns raised by leaders of a dozen U.S. public health schools in a letter to President Barack Obama. They spoke out following revelations the CIA had enlisted a doctor to oversee a false immunization campaign in Pakistan ahead of the 2011 raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - wavefunction 12y ago
        So they say. The CIA are liars by trade (like the NSA) and I would give their pronouncements and oaths as much attention as I give their pathetic apologies for their past and ongoing inhumanity. They will break their "word" tomorrow if they feel it is in their best interests. I'm an American and I'm repulsed by what is often done in my name by my "intelligence" agencies.
        scott_karana 12y ago
        Even if they hold to their word, they'll do so literally and immorally. > it won't use vaccination programs Next up, "immunization" programs? Disease tests? Vitamin supplements?
anigbrowl 12y ago
DNA storage is a very tricky area ethically. You're dead right that even spotty coverage is sufficient to make all sort of inference, while on the other hand we have much more DNA from crime scenes than we have the resources to process, and when we do process it it can lead to the exoneration of people who were serving long sentences. http://hstlj.org/articles/concerns-associated-with-expanding-dna-databases/ http://hstlj.org/articles/concerns-associated-with-expanding...
- toyg 12y ago
  > we have much more DNA from crime scenes than we have the resources to process If it's just a matter of computational power for a given price, that problem will easily be solved in a few years.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    Computational power probably isn't the limiting resource in DNA analysis (I've known plenty of people who do it in non-forensic applications in the biotech field, and I've heard of various things limiting throughput in any given effort, and computing resources were never on the list.)
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    Lacko f administrative will ont he part of police departments seems to be the largest part of the problem, if stories of unprocessed rape kits by the hundreds are anything to go by. Thankfully some states have committed to clearing the backlog and not allowing it to build up again. http://www.endthebacklog.org/ http://www.endthebacklog.org/
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  ISIS has been using government biometric databases at checkpoints to ID regime agents and execute them on the spot. They had seized facial recognition databases that were largely put together by Americans. When you wind up in these biometric databases you really can't be sure who is going to use it for what. It's not like the data is ever secure.
final 12y ago
There is a team in Denmark, working on building body and face models from persons genetic code. Stuff like age, height range, skin, hair, eye color, big/small/regular nose, wide/narrow face.
- sampo 12y ago
  Person's age from their genetic code?
  - carlob 12y ago
    Telomeres seem to get shorter as people age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Shortening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Shortening
    - sampo 12y ago
      That is a good notion, thanks. However, telomeres are repetitive code, and not amenable to standard PCR and sequencing methods (as far as I know). I don't know if the amounts of DNA or chromosomes typical in forensic samples are enough for the techniques used to measure telomere length. Well maybe they are, if the Danish group is working on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Measurement
      - carlob 12y ago
        Well I think that if the length of the fragment is larger than the repeated fragment, you can get a good idea of the number of repetitions. This is not a case like CNV (copy number variation) where a whole gene can appear a number of times, so I think this is somewhat possible by PCR (though probably not very precise).
        sampo 12y ago
        > Well I think that if the length of the fragment is larger than the repeated fragment, you can get a good idea of the number of repetitions. How?
andrewtbham 12y ago
They do this England. They caught a serial killer by matching to a family member's dna. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-not-so-perfect-match/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-not-so-perfect-match/
- bandwevil 12y ago
  Similar familial matching happened in the US a few years ago. http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=11116381 http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=11116381
a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
Is it possible to do 23andMe pseudonymously? Mail them a money order and use a temp email address? I would never volunteer a dna sample like that clearly tied to my SSN. I have always assumed that the airport scanners are also collecting biometrics on everyone for video identification purposes and for that reason I try to avoid them.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Funny comment. You want to stay anonymous and at the same time mail someone your hardest to fake piece of ID. There is something really wrong in your reasoning, your DNA is your identity and if any other family members of yours use 23andme as well then your relationship to them could very well be uncovered.
  - drdaeman 12y ago
    > your DNA is your identity I believe he has some point. Humans generally have multiple (mostly highly-overlapping) [sub-]identities, one per clique. And we usually don't like mixing them too much. We're one person at work, but a bit different one at a close friends' party. Our genetic data is a part of the picture but not a whole picture. That's somehow in a same manner your photo identifies you, but when you have a photo of random person on a street you're unlikely to easily figure out their name.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      That is because a photo can not be linked to your family relationships as a DNA strand can. So photos and DNA have very different properties when it comes to identity, and barring some stupendously unlikely coincidence (or an identical twin or clone) your DNA is much more unique than your photo will ever be (witness the number of celebrity doubles).
      - drdaeman 12y ago
        Indeed. However, I think, a wish to not provide a link between your DNA and your name is somehow understandable. Anonymizing a subset of social graph isn't something completely wrong, although, indeed, I agree, it's unlikely to work well, because, it's very likely that only a single node would go without a name. (However, if all his near relatives would do the same, all one could figure out that John Doe is probably a relative of a Jane Doe. And they're somewhat related to other people with real names, but at least deanonymizing requires more work and other databases.)

by IvyMike 12y ago

toomuchtodo 12y ago

CODIS already does familial searching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_DNA_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_DNA_database http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/familial-searching http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/fam... http://www.innocenceproject.org/docs/FamilialSearchPolicyFinal.pdf http://www.innocenceproject.org/docs/FamilialSearchPolicyFin... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253037/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253037/

mendort 12y ago

Well, we know that CIA was doing something like it in Pakistan. It would be a little surprising if the FBI didn't the potential for the technology.

duaneb 12y ago
> Well, we know that CIA was doing something like it in Pakistan. Wow, got a source for that?
- edent 12y ago
  > Genetic material obtained through a fake door-to-door hepatitis B vaccination programme reportedly helped the CIA confirm Bin Laden's whereabouts in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad. http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27489045 http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27489045
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- qohen 12y ago
  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/world/asia/12dna.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/world/asia/12dna.html In the months before Osama bin Laden was killed, the Central Intelligence Agency ran a phony vaccination program in Abbottabad, Pakistan, as a ruse to obtain DNA evidence from members of Bin Laden’s family thought to be holed up in an expansive compound there, according to an American official.
  - qohen 12y ago
    BTW, it appears the CIA has committed to not doing that sort of thing again, as a result of complaints from the public health community about this operation: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/19/politics/cia-vaccination/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/19/politics/cia-vaccination/ A newly disclosed CIA policy mandates that it won't use vaccination programs as part of its operations, according to the Obama administration. The directive by CIA Director John Brennan, made nine months ago but only coming to light now, followed concerns raised by leaders of a dozen U.S. public health schools in a letter to President Barack Obama. They spoke out following revelations the CIA had enlisted a doctor to oversee a false immunization campaign in Pakistan ahead of the 2011 raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      So they say. The CIA are liars by trade (like the NSA) and I would give their pronouncements and oaths as much attention as I give their pathetic apologies for their past and ongoing inhumanity. They will break their "word" tomorrow if they feel it is in their best interests. I'm an American and I'm repulsed by what is often done in my name by my "intelligence" agencies.
      - scott_karana 12y ago
        Even if they hold to their word, they'll do so literally and immorally. > it won't use vaccination programs Next up, "immunization" programs? Disease tests? Vitamin supplements?

anigbrowl 12y ago

DNA storage is a very tricky area ethically. You're dead right that even spotty coverage is sufficient to make all sort of inference, while on the other hand we have much more DNA from crime scenes than we have the resources to process, and when we do process it it can lead to the exoneration of people who were serving long sentences. http://hstlj.org/articles/concerns-associated-with-expanding-dna-databases/ http://hstlj.org/articles/concerns-associated-with-expanding...

toyg 12y ago
> we have much more DNA from crime scenes than we have the resources to process If it's just a matter of computational power for a given price, that problem will easily be solved in a few years.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Computational power probably isn't the limiting resource in DNA analysis (I've known plenty of people who do it in non-forensic applications in the biotech field, and I've heard of various things limiting throughput in any given effort, and computing resources were never on the list.)
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Lacko f administrative will ont he part of police departments seems to be the largest part of the problem, if stories of unprocessed rape kits by the hundreds are anything to go by. Thankfully some states have committed to clearing the backlog and not allowing it to build up again. http://www.endthebacklog.org/ http://www.endthebacklog.org/
a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
ISIS has been using government biometric databases at checkpoints to ID regime agents and execute them on the spot. They had seized facial recognition databases that were largely put together by Americans. When you wind up in these biometric databases you really can't be sure who is going to use it for what. It's not like the data is ever secure.

final 12y ago

There is a team in Denmark, working on building body and face models from persons genetic code. Stuff like age, height range, skin, hair, eye color, big/small/regular nose, wide/narrow face.

sampo 12y ago
Person's age from their genetic code?
- carlob 12y ago
  Telomeres seem to get shorter as people age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Shortening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Shortening
  - sampo 12y ago
    That is a good notion, thanks. However, telomeres are repetitive code, and not amenable to standard PCR and sequencing methods (as far as I know). I don't know if the amounts of DNA or chromosomes typical in forensic samples are enough for the techniques used to measure telomere length. Well maybe they are, if the Danish group is working on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Measurement
    - carlob 12y ago
      Well I think that if the length of the fragment is larger than the repeated fragment, you can get a good idea of the number of repetitions. This is not a case like CNV (copy number variation) where a whole gene can appear a number of times, so I think this is somewhat possible by PCR (though probably not very precise).
      - sampo 12y ago
        > Well I think that if the length of the fragment is larger than the repeated fragment, you can get a good idea of the number of repetitions. How?

andrewtbham 12y ago

They do this England. They caught a serial killer by matching to a family member's dna. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-not-so-perfect-match/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-not-so-perfect-match/

bandwevil 12y ago
Similar familial matching happened in the US a few years ago. http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=11116381 http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=11116381

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago

Is it possible to do 23andMe pseudonymously? Mail them a money order and use a temp email address? I would never volunteer a dna sample like that clearly tied to my SSN. I have always assumed that the airport scanners are also collecting biometrics on everyone for video identification purposes and for that reason I try to avoid them.

jacquesm 12y ago
Funny comment. You want to stay anonymous and at the same time mail someone your hardest to fake piece of ID. There is something really wrong in your reasoning, your DNA is your identity and if any other family members of yours use 23andme as well then your relationship to them could very well be uncovered.
- drdaeman 12y ago
  > your DNA is your identity I believe he has some point. Humans generally have multiple (mostly highly-overlapping) [sub-]identities, one per clique. And we usually don't like mixing them too much. We're one person at work, but a bit different one at a close friends' party. Our genetic data is a part of the picture but not a whole picture. That's somehow in a same manner your photo identifies you, but when you have a photo of random person on a street you're unlikely to easily figure out their name.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That is because a photo can not be linked to your family relationships as a DNA strand can. So photos and DNA have very different properties when it comes to identity, and barring some stupendously unlikely coincidence (or an identical twin or clone) your DNA is much more unique than your photo will ever be (witness the number of celebrity doubles).
    - drdaeman 12y ago
      Indeed. However, I think, a wish to not provide a link between your DNA and your name is somehow understandable. Anonymizing a subset of social graph isn't something completely wrong, although, indeed, I agree, it's unlikely to work well, because, it's very likely that only a single node would go without a name. (However, if all his near relatives would do the same, all one could figure out that John Doe is probably a relative of a Jane Doe. And they're somewhat related to other people with real names, but at least deanonymizing requires more work and other databases.)