10 ms·

This seems similar to Google Wallet, which has been around for a few years. How does Apple plan to make this a bigger success?

by adorton 12y ago

Nickoladze 12y ago
Hopefully this means stores will actually install the NFC readers or whatever.
- dangoor 12y ago
  One interesting unrelated development: the US is moving to chip-and-PIN cards next year. Merchants that don't move over to the new system (in other words, those that still take signatures instead of having you do the chip-and-PIN thing) will be responsible for fraud that occurs in their stores... so merchants will switch. If merchants are getting new credit card terminals anyhow, it seems likely they'd get NFC compatible ones. I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago...
  - baddox 12y ago
    My Bank of America Visa recently expired, and the new one they sent me has what appears to be chip and pin. Weirdly, there is no information in the included pamphlet about the technology. I assume they're just preemptively putting the cards out there.
    - Sanddancer 12y ago
      I got a chip and pin card from wells fargo a couple months back, and the actual pin came in an envelope a few weeks after the card.
    - HeavenFox 12y ago
      They've been issuing them for a while. It's not chip and pin, but chip and signature. afaik no major US bank issue chip and pin yet.
    - shade 12y ago
      I have a Bank of America MasterCard that expired recently and they sent me a new card, but when you go to their information page about chip cards ( http://bankofamerica.com/chipcardfacts http://bankofamerica.com/chipcardfacts ) it seems pretty clear that it's actually chip and signature. They emphasize that if you get asked for a PIN, you should tell the merchant it only requires a signature. I don't know enough about chip and PIN to say if it's possible, but I'm hoping that means they'll eventually move to adding a PIN too. All that said -- my iPhone 5 is coming off contract in a few weeks now and I definitely plan on picking up an iPhone 6; I'm looking forward to seeing how well Pay works.
  - craigching 12y ago
    > I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago... Yep, Whole Foods near me has as well. Also Walgreens near me has new terminals too.
  - Thrymr 12y ago
    Sadly, US banks seem to be going with chip-and-signature rather than chip-and-PIN. It's not easy to find one that will issue chip-and-PIN.
    - craigching 12y ago
      Will a chip and sig work in Europe? That's probably my biggest issue is traveling and not having a chip.
      - makomk 12y ago
        It ought to, since some European customers have chip-and-signature cards for various reasons. There's no guarantee that shop employees will be properly trained on how to handle it though.
      - Cadsby 12y ago
        Generally yes, although the cashier might be momentarily confused when the machine prompts her to get a signature since everyone else just uses their pin. The only place it won't work at all is self-service kiosk.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  Stores are already installing them to conform to the upcoming chip and signature standard rolling out across the US. You can tap most of your credit cards instead of swiping at the small number of merchants that have rolled it out (McDonalds, Staples, etc).
pacofvf 12y ago
if by similar you mean actually the same, yes they are similar
- mitchty 12y ago
  How? Google wallet basically dumps magstripe out of nfc. This doesn't do anything close to that. Can you explain how they are the same?
  - pacofvf 12y ago
    From the user POV, it's the same: 1. upload your Credit/Debit card info to an app(passport/wallet) 2. your phone must have NFC. 3. pay with your phone at a NFC capable terminal.
MBCook 12y ago
Apple has three advantages. First, it's on iPhone, which is a ton of devices. Second, they already have your credit card because you've used it to buy apps or music, etc. Third, people will know this exists because of the media. So if you get a new iPhone, you're ready to start using it almost immediately. I'm sure I'll use it. With Android, Google has to get you to sign up for wallet and get you to know that you should want to. Plus you had to have a phone that supports it (I don't know how common that is among high end Android phones). This is one of those situations where "just being Apple" is a huge advantage.
- eevilspock 12y ago
  Does Google Wallet have similar security features, such as not storing or transmitting your actual credit card number or your name, or use of a secure enclave in the phone hardware?
  - thrownaway2424 12y ago
    No. Google Wallet simply blurts the magstripe information into the reader over NFC. It has no security features to speak of.
    - dsimms 12y ago
      That doesn't make any sense, no. Instead, they skip the secure element and transmit something non-standard (...by buying a bank and routing those through that, essentially acting as a proxy to the card networks?): http://secureidnews.com/news-item/host-card-emulation-enables-nfc-without-a-secure-element/ http://secureidnews.com/news-item/host-card-emulation-enable...
    - praxulus 12y ago
      It doesn't use your card's number, it creates a virtual card and gives that number to the payment terminal. https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2676665?rd=1 https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2676665?rd=1
guybrushT 12y ago
I can only guess: but I believe that this will fly if the iPhone 6 is a hit, but it could really soar if the Apple Watch sells very well. Paying with something on my wrist seems more natural (slightly better UX?). If the products end up 'failing' (which for apple means sell like iPhone 5C) then this will just drag on like any product from an extremely large company like Google or Apple that just lives because they can push it on users.
csours 12y ago
Millions of adoring fans who trust the Apple brand. People who turn on Apple Pay for "convenience" and then use it for "impulse buy"
bsimpson 12y ago
Google Wallet was terrible because you had to unlock your phone and enter a PIN, making it instantly way more cumbersome than swiping a card. Since the iPhones that have NFC also have TouchID, they can authenticate you instantly without resorting to a PIN. If it works as advertised, it will be a huge improvement over Google Wallet. (I still think Square got closest to an ideal payment scheme with Pay with Square, where the cashier verifies your face to charge you without requiring you to pull anything out. Too bad they broke it by requiring you to pull out your phone to check-in before it would work.)
- FlailFast 12y ago
  Agreed on Square, but they even went a step further for a time and allowed geofencing at your favorite places...back when Square Wallet was still around, I used to frequently go to a Houston-area coffee shop with Square Register and never had to pull my phone out to pay. It was downright magical...wish they hadn't cancelled Wallet, it really had so much potential.
- chrischen 12y ago
  That's not the real issue. The real issue is that it doesn't fulfill the promise of you not having to hold your cards anymore (unless you only shop at Walgreens).
  - swift 12y ago
    In the short term, sure, but if there's sufficient uptake things might look different in a few years. For me, it might not take much - just Walgreens, some supermarkets, and a decent number of local restaurants supporting this might be enough to allow me to leave my wallet at home on a typical workday. Ironically the one card I'd probably still need, my transit card (Clipper), I assume also uses NFC of some sort. It'd be nice if the new iPhone's NFC feature could support that as well.
    - cbhl 12y ago
      Clipper uses a technology called "MiFare DESFire". I'm under the impression that mobile phones can read these, but can't emulate them for some reason. (But apparently they can emulate its predecessor, MiFare Classic, which is unencrypted?)
maxbrown 12y ago
No idea if it'll be a bigger success, but some thoughts: 1. Timing - 2011 (Wallet release) seems early for consumer NFC, not to mention smartphone penetration ([1] ~30% 2011 to ~70% 2014) and mass market comfort with mobile transactions (Uber, etc.) Wallet may just have been launched too early, they may have educated the market rather than capitalized on it. 2. Existing credit card info - many consumers already give Apple their CC info and payments (iTunes). I can only think of a few examples where you pay Google (Adwords, Google Play) and they are less commonly used. 3. Hype factor - Apple has some magic when it comes to hyping consumer products and services. Google has some of this, but I don't think it's nearly as much, especially with the general population (i.e. non-developers). [1] http://www.gsmarena.com/asymco_pricing_doesnt_affect_smartphone_adoption_in_the_us-news-8982.php http://www.gsmarena.com/asymco_pricing_doesnt_affect_smartph...
- bergie 12y ago
  A bit more on the timing: USA is finally switching to EMV based credit card payments (chip and pin) during this year and the next, meaning that most terminals will likely be able to accept NFC payments as well (Google Wallet, Apple Pay, whatever else that follows the spec)
72deluxe 12y ago
If it means that someone here in the UK can finally pay for something somewhere with an NFC-capable phone, then good! Google Wallet has been US-only for years (and I think the UK promises about its arrival never materialised, unless I am wrong?) In any case, hopefully this will force the industry to move forward, particularly on Android.
owenwil 12y ago
Google Wallet required Carrier SIM support which forced consumers to actually go and get a SIM that supported it, as well as a handset that supported said SIM. Apple's solution does not require this and cuts MNO's out entirely

This seems similar to Google Wallet, which has been around for a few years. How does Apple plan to make this a bigger success?

by adorton 12y ago

This seems similar to Google Wallet, which has been around for a few years. How does Apple plan to make this a bigger success?

Nickoladze 12y ago

Hopefully this means stores will actually install the NFC readers or whatever.

dangoor 12y ago
One interesting unrelated development: the US is moving to chip-and-PIN cards next year. Merchants that don't move over to the new system (in other words, those that still take signatures instead of having you do the chip-and-PIN thing) will be responsible for fraud that occurs in their stores... so merchants will switch. If merchants are getting new credit card terminals anyhow, it seems likely they'd get NFC compatible ones. I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago...
- baddox 12y ago
  My Bank of America Visa recently expired, and the new one they sent me has what appears to be chip and pin. Weirdly, there is no information in the included pamphlet about the technology. I assume they're just preemptively putting the cards out there.
  - Sanddancer 12y ago
    I got a chip and pin card from wells fargo a couple months back, and the actual pin came in an envelope a few weeks after the card.
  - HeavenFox 12y ago
    They've been issuing them for a while. It's not chip and pin, but chip and signature. afaik no major US bank issue chip and pin yet.
  - shade 12y ago
    I have a Bank of America MasterCard that expired recently and they sent me a new card, but when you go to their information page about chip cards ( http://bankofamerica.com/chipcardfacts http://bankofamerica.com/chipcardfacts ) it seems pretty clear that it's actually chip and signature. They emphasize that if you get asked for a PIN, you should tell the merchant it only requires a signature. I don't know enough about chip and PIN to say if it's possible, but I'm hoping that means they'll eventually move to adding a PIN too. All that said -- my iPhone 5 is coming off contract in a few weeks now and I definitely plan on picking up an iPhone 6; I'm looking forward to seeing how well Pay works.
- craigching 12y ago
  > I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago... Yep, Whole Foods near me has as well. Also Walgreens near me has new terminals too.
- Thrymr 12y ago
  Sadly, US banks seem to be going with chip-and-signature rather than chip-and-PIN. It's not easy to find one that will issue chip-and-PIN.
  - craigching 12y ago
    Will a chip and sig work in Europe? That's probably my biggest issue is traveling and not having a chip.
    - makomk 12y ago
      It ought to, since some European customers have chip-and-signature cards for various reasons. There's no guarantee that shop employees will be properly trained on how to handle it though.
    - Cadsby 12y ago
      Generally yes, although the cashier might be momentarily confused when the machine prompts her to get a signature since everyone else just uses their pin. The only place it won't work at all is self-service kiosk.
JohnTHaller 12y ago
Stores are already installing them to conform to the upcoming chip and signature standard rolling out across the US. You can tap most of your credit cards instead of swiping at the small number of merchants that have rolled it out (McDonalds, Staples, etc).

pacofvf 12y ago

if by similar you mean actually the same, yes they are similar

mitchty 12y ago
How? Google wallet basically dumps magstripe out of nfc. This doesn't do anything close to that. Can you explain how they are the same?
- pacofvf 12y ago
  From the user POV, it's the same: 1. upload your Credit/Debit card info to an app(passport/wallet) 2. your phone must have NFC. 3. pay with your phone at a NFC capable terminal.

MBCook 12y ago

Apple has three advantages. First, it's on iPhone, which is a ton of devices. Second, they already have your credit card because you've used it to buy apps or music, etc. Third, people will know this exists because of the media. So if you get a new iPhone, you're ready to start using it almost immediately. I'm sure I'll use it. With Android, Google has to get you to sign up for wallet and get you to know that you should want to. Plus you had to have a phone that supports it (I don't know how common that is among high end Android phones). This is one of those situations where "just being Apple" is a huge advantage.

eevilspock 12y ago
Does Google Wallet have similar security features, such as not storing or transmitting your actual credit card number or your name, or use of a secure enclave in the phone hardware?
- thrownaway2424 12y ago
  No. Google Wallet simply blurts the magstripe information into the reader over NFC. It has no security features to speak of.
  - dsimms 12y ago
    That doesn't make any sense, no. Instead, they skip the secure element and transmit something non-standard (...by buying a bank and routing those through that, essentially acting as a proxy to the card networks?): http://secureidnews.com/news-item/host-card-emulation-enables-nfc-without-a-secure-element/ http://secureidnews.com/news-item/host-card-emulation-enable...
  - praxulus 12y ago
    It doesn't use your card's number, it creates a virtual card and gives that number to the payment terminal. https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2676665?rd=1 https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2676665?rd=1

guybrushT 12y ago

I can only guess: but I believe that this will fly if the iPhone 6 is a hit, but it could really soar if the Apple Watch sells very well. Paying with something on my wrist seems more natural (slightly better UX?). If the products end up 'failing' (which for apple means sell like iPhone 5C) then this will just drag on like any product from an extremely large company like Google or Apple that just lives because they can push it on users.

csours 12y ago

Millions of adoring fans who trust the Apple brand. People who turn on Apple Pay for "convenience" and then use it for "impulse buy"

bsimpson 12y ago

Google Wallet was terrible because you had to unlock your phone and enter a PIN, making it instantly way more cumbersome than swiping a card. Since the iPhones that have NFC also have TouchID, they can authenticate you instantly without resorting to a PIN. If it works as advertised, it will be a huge improvement over Google Wallet. (I still think Square got closest to an ideal payment scheme with Pay with Square, where the cashier verifies your face to charge you without requiring you to pull anything out. Too bad they broke it by requiring you to pull out your phone to check-in before it would work.)

FlailFast 12y ago
Agreed on Square, but they even went a step further for a time and allowed geofencing at your favorite places...back when Square Wallet was still around, I used to frequently go to a Houston-area coffee shop with Square Register and never had to pull my phone out to pay. It was downright magical...wish they hadn't cancelled Wallet, it really had so much potential.
chrischen 12y ago
That's not the real issue. The real issue is that it doesn't fulfill the promise of you not having to hold your cards anymore (unless you only shop at Walgreens).
- swift 12y ago
  In the short term, sure, but if there's sufficient uptake things might look different in a few years. For me, it might not take much - just Walgreens, some supermarkets, and a decent number of local restaurants supporting this might be enough to allow me to leave my wallet at home on a typical workday. Ironically the one card I'd probably still need, my transit card (Clipper), I assume also uses NFC of some sort. It'd be nice if the new iPhone's NFC feature could support that as well.
  - cbhl 12y ago
    Clipper uses a technology called "MiFare DESFire". I'm under the impression that mobile phones can read these, but can't emulate them for some reason. (But apparently they can emulate its predecessor, MiFare Classic, which is unencrypted?)

maxbrown 12y ago

No idea if it'll be a bigger success, but some thoughts: 1. Timing - 2011 (Wallet release) seems early for consumer NFC, not to mention smartphone penetration ([1] ~30% 2011 to ~70% 2014) and mass market comfort with mobile transactions (Uber, etc.) Wallet may just have been launched too early, they may have educated the market rather than capitalized on it. 2. Existing credit card info - many consumers already give Apple their CC info and payments (iTunes). I can only think of a few examples where you pay Google (Adwords, Google Play) and they are less commonly used. 3. Hype factor - Apple has some magic when it comes to hyping consumer products and services. Google has some of this, but I don't think it's nearly as much, especially with the general population (i.e. non-developers). [1] http://www.gsmarena.com/asymco_pricing_doesnt_affect_smartphone_adoption_in_the_us-news-8982.php http://www.gsmarena.com/asymco_pricing_doesnt_affect_smartph...

bergie 12y ago
A bit more on the timing: USA is finally switching to EMV based credit card payments (chip and pin) during this year and the next, meaning that most terminals will likely be able to accept NFC payments as well (Google Wallet, Apple Pay, whatever else that follows the spec)

72deluxe 12y ago

If it means that someone here in the UK can finally pay for something somewhere with an NFC-capable phone, then good! Google Wallet has been US-only for years (and I think the UK promises about its arrival never materialised, unless I am wrong?) In any case, hopefully this will force the industry to move forward, particularly on Android.

owenwil 12y ago

Google Wallet required Carrier SIM support which forced consumers to actually go and get a SIM that supported it, as well as a handset that supported said SIM. Apple's solution does not require this and cuts MNO's out entirely