7 ms·

No. You have to work, every day, whether you are too tired or not. You must push yourself, every day, and have discipline. Extraordinary results require extra

by joshu 17y ago

No. You have to work, every day, whether you are too tired or not. You must push yourself, every day, and have discipline. Extraordinary results require extraordinary efforts.

khafra 17y ago
Considering that Joshu was a famous Zen master, perhaps I should defer to your judgement. I will say that in my own life, I am often tempted by immediate action or inaction that suddenly becomes unattractive when I remember my longer-term goals.
- joshu 17y ago
  I don't know much from Zen. I'm the opposite, if anything. I appear to be attempting to achieve a state of complete Worry. That said, I DID build something while also working at a gruelling day job. So I know a bit about how to do this.
ellyagg 17y ago
Yeah, for some people, the advice in this article will lead to disaster. For example, I would rather be reading than doing, all the time. Reading is pure candy for me, instant gratification. To become (reasonably) successful, I had to stop reading.
- mattm 17y ago
  I recall a study where researchers wanted to see how "natural" work was. They took a class of young children and told them they can do whatever they want. So the first day they all ran around outside and had fun. I think by the third day they were all begging to have class again and have some work to do.
  - ellyagg 17y ago
    That reminds me of a portion of a letter Ben Franklin wrote to Peter Collinson: "The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appear strongly in the heretofore little success that has attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians. . . . They visit us frequently and see the advantages that Arts, Science and compact Society procure us; they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never strewn any inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts. "When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return. And that this is not natural [only to Indians], but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet within a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of Life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."
    - coffeemug 17y ago
      Is there a published collection of letters you're quoting from? I'd love to read it - what book is this from?
      - ellyagg 17y ago
        I originally read a reference to it in Huck's Raft: A History of American Childhood. Actually, looking it up again made me interested to know if a collection of Franklin's letters has been released in a mainstream volume, too. His Autobiography was awesome.
  - unalone 17y ago
    That's the educational theory behind the Summerhill School: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ Some kids that go there spend periods of years doing no work, going to no classes, and aren't punished. The idea is that when the kid is ready to learn, he will learn without provocation.
    - hughprime 17y ago
      Sounds dangerous. When I was a kid, I was already enough of a contrarian that if I'd gone there I probably would have done no work just to prove their silly theory wrong.
      - unalone 17y ago
        That's why it's something like a ten-year school. The idea is that given a decade of freedom, kids will more readily find what they really want.
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    I have a friend who graduated from college double majoring in Physics and Economics... and now works maybe 15 hours a week at a grocery store and plays video games most of the time, and this is by choice. Strange conditioning, or living naturally? Oh, and in case you think this is merely a phase, he's been doing this for over a year now.
    - mattm 17y ago
      I think 15-20 hours of work a week is natural. That is the amount the Kung Bushmen have been known to work per week gathering food. The rest of the time is leisure. When at work, I use a timer to time the time spent in actual productive programming. I find that if I start to go over 20 hours of productive work a week, I start to become miserable and my body reacts by bringing on colds or allergies. Perhaps your friend chooses to work at a grocery store because he can't find a job in his field where he would have the opportunity to only work 15 hours.
      - dangrover 17y ago
        I've found the exact same thing. 20 hours of real, actual, focused work seems about right. I average about that: http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg A 25 real-hours-of-work week ends up being a pretty productive and intense one for me. I feel lazy with such a low number, but I bet most office workers do far less.
- TY 17y ago
  I'm in the same boat - if I don't make myself work, I'll end up reading all the time with zero to show for it. Only one thing makes me deliver: deadline Without deadlines, nothing gets done in my world, as I always get these ideas of how to do something better using the new shiny thing X and there is no end to it. Deadline enforces discipline and requires me to do a good job of planning to allocate the precious time. Makes me say no to pleasant distractions that I would otherwise agree to... Once I have something delivered (or during my consulting work), then I allow myself to go on a "sabbatical": read the books and lurk on HN and LTU. However, the sabbatical must have a scheduled end-date too, otherwise nothing will ever get done. Deadlines must be concrete. Here are mine: my current sabbatical ends in 2 weeks (coincides with the end of my consulting engagement and loss of golden handcuffs http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743). Real work starts on October 4 with a clear deliverable by October 23...
  - indigoshift 17y ago
    I'm in the same boat. The deadline is everything. I structure my life around my deadlines, and the closer I get to the deadline, the more everything else ends up playing second fiddle to it. I'm an illustrator, though, not a programmer. But it's nice to be able to tell new clients that I haven't missed a deadline in 15 years. No illness or injury or real-life event can change that. I used to feel guilty for sometimes waiting till the last minute to finish a job, until I watched a documentary about Frank Frazetta. He would get a new painting project and wait till the night before the deadline before even starting on it. He'd stay up all night and get it done on time, then go back to what he was doing--which was usually baseball or (as he got older) golf. :)
- hyperbovine 17y ago
  Sounds like you have a future in literary criticism then. Seriously. The whole point of the post is "don't fight it," and I for one agree.
  - ellyagg 17y ago
    Heh. I don't think so. I'd rather be having sex than doing, too, but I'm not buying a bus ticket to San Fernando Valley.
joez 17y ago
Reminds me of http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html about 15 mins in. You have to show up to work everyday and if your muse doesn't then you did your part.
aditya 17y ago
do you care to share your tricks for doing that, when all you really want to do is read/sleep? how do you discipline yourself so that you don't constantly need inspiration?
- joshu 17y ago
  My technique was: Just get one thing done. Even if it's an easy, small thing. Get started and do it now. Especially if you don't want to. Having done it, try to do another; it'll be a great deal easier.
timr 17y ago
No. Some people need to do that. Others are workaholics, and need to take a break to inspire creativity. Others work because they're doing what they love, and do not need discipline because they're passionate about something. Others are usually passionate, but need momentary discipline to work through a tedious spot. Everyone is different. One size does not fit all. This is a good place to apply the Paul Bucheit quote: "Limited life experience + Overgeneralization = ADVICE"
- joshu 17y ago
  The question was "How do I work when I don't feel like it." Workaholics don't ask this. People who are doing what they love and don't need discipline because they're already doing it don't ask this. If you want to make the the world march to your beat, you need to start with your body/self.
  - timr 17y ago
    "People who are doing what they love and don't need discipline because they're already doing it don't ask this." Even passionate people go through periods when they don't feel like working, or they're working on some boring task, or whatever. The answer is not always to self-immolate, but to be self-aware, and to figure out why you're not motivated. Sometimes discipline is appropriate; sometimes rest is the better prescription. The world marches to your beat because your beat is inspiring, not because you beat your drum harder than everyone else.
  - thaumaturgy 17y ago
    I think there must be a nice middleground between your position and Sivers'. Even workaholics have periods where they need to spend a day reading a book or a weekend camping. In their case, they're just burnt-out somewhat, and need some "recharge" time. They know that they'll be ready to work again soon. Others are lazier by nature, and would spend the majority of their lives doing little or nothing -- and that might include traveling, gardening, reading, playing video games -- and they do need to push themselves if they're going to accomplish anything ... if they want to accomplish anything.
unalone 17y ago
I have a problem with this phrase have to. I don't have to do anything. There is no proven formula that works for anything. Winston Churchill was a lazy, lazy man who succeeded because he was capable of brilliance for the short bursts of time he worked. Brian Wilson spent the infamous three years high in his bedroom, then returned with a series of masterpiece albums. Ricky Gervais was a disc jockey until he was 39, then made possibly the best television show of all time despite being lazy and disruptive both while writing and directing it. Marcel Duchamp spent how long making his fountain? It became the most famous piece of art of the century. While I don't disagree that extraordinary efforts are required to produce things, I don't agree that "extraordinary" means hard work. Sometimes it means a willingness not to work unless the work means something.
- joshu 17y ago
  I didn't say that you just work hard at any random thing. it's important to do the right things. (I think of myself as very lazy as well; I tend to grind on ideas for months or years until they are simple enough.)
  - unalone 17y ago
    In that case I misinterpreted you.
- neilc 17y ago
  Winston Churchill was a lazy, lazy man who succeeded because he was capable of brilliance for the short bursts of time he worked Do you have a reference for that? My impression was that Churchill had a fairly intense work schedule. For example, http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-cohen061802.asp http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-cohen061802.as... : "Churchill, far from being an aristocratic lounger, was a glutton for work ... His working hours were, it is true, hard on his subordinates, extending as they frequently did into the small hours of the morning."
  - unalone 17y ago
    Churchill had a lopsided schedule. He would wake up, work from his bed for a few hours, then sleep through lunch and wake again in the afternoon. He was criticized for not working a proper workday, but he insisted that taking a break in between kept him sharper for longer periods of time. So he wasn't lazy in that he did nothing—he wrote a series of histories and was one of Britain's most influential prime ministers—but he worked a unique schedule.
yesimahuman 17y ago
I wish I had time to read and learn new things, but I feel antsy when I read books anymore, like I could be making things and pushing my product. Seriously, I feel like I only deserve to read when I'm on the toilet and can't really do anything else. I think I need to relax a bit.
UncleOxidant 17y ago
For the sake of argument, I'm going to ask why? I mean why do we work hard and push ourselves? We're all going to end up as worm food eventually anyway. So why push yourself? Why not just enjoy life? Now, of course, I push myself for various reasons: I want income, I want to make the world a better place, I want to learn, etc... but in the end are those reasons for working hard any better than the person who says they want to have a happy life and thus don't work hard or push themselves?

by joshu 17y ago

No. You have to work, every day, whether you are too tired or not. You must push yourself, every day, and have discipline. Extraordinary results require extraordinary efforts.

khafra 17y ago

Considering that Joshu was a famous Zen master, perhaps I should defer to your judgement. I will say that in my own life, I am often tempted by immediate action or inaction that suddenly becomes unattractive when I remember my longer-term goals.

joshu 17y ago
I don't know much from Zen. I'm the opposite, if anything. I appear to be attempting to achieve a state of complete Worry. That said, I DID build something while also working at a gruelling day job. So I know a bit about how to do this.

ellyagg 17y ago

Yeah, for some people, the advice in this article will lead to disaster. For example, I would rather be reading than doing, all the time. Reading is pure candy for me, instant gratification. To become (reasonably) successful, I had to stop reading.

mattm 17y ago
I recall a study where researchers wanted to see how "natural" work was. They took a class of young children and told them they can do whatever they want. So the first day they all ran around outside and had fun. I think by the third day they were all begging to have class again and have some work to do.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  That reminds me of a portion of a letter Ben Franklin wrote to Peter Collinson: "The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appear strongly in the heretofore little success that has attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians. . . . They visit us frequently and see the advantages that Arts, Science and compact Society procure us; they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never strewn any inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts. "When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return. And that this is not natural [only to Indians], but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet within a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of Life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."
  - coffeemug 17y ago
    Is there a published collection of letters you're quoting from? I'd love to read it - what book is this from?
    - ellyagg 17y ago
      I originally read a reference to it in Huck's Raft: A History of American Childhood. Actually, looking it up again made me interested to know if a collection of Franklin's letters has been released in a mainstream volume, too. His Autobiography was awesome.
- unalone 17y ago
  That's the educational theory behind the Summerhill School: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ Some kids that go there spend periods of years doing no work, going to no classes, and aren't punished. The idea is that when the kid is ready to learn, he will learn without provocation.
  - hughprime 17y ago
    Sounds dangerous. When I was a kid, I was already enough of a contrarian that if I'd gone there I probably would have done no work just to prove their silly theory wrong.
    - unalone 17y ago
      That's why it's something like a ten-year school. The idea is that given a decade of freedom, kids will more readily find what they really want.
- Psyonic 17y ago
  I have a friend who graduated from college double majoring in Physics and Economics... and now works maybe 15 hours a week at a grocery store and plays video games most of the time, and this is by choice. Strange conditioning, or living naturally? Oh, and in case you think this is merely a phase, he's been doing this for over a year now.
  - mattm 17y ago
    I think 15-20 hours of work a week is natural. That is the amount the Kung Bushmen have been known to work per week gathering food. The rest of the time is leisure. When at work, I use a timer to time the time spent in actual productive programming. I find that if I start to go over 20 hours of productive work a week, I start to become miserable and my body reacts by bringing on colds or allergies. Perhaps your friend chooses to work at a grocery store because he can't find a job in his field where he would have the opportunity to only work 15 hours.
    - dangrover 17y ago
      I've found the exact same thing. 20 hours of real, actual, focused work seems about right. I average about that: http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg A 25 real-hours-of-work week ends up being a pretty productive and intense one for me. I feel lazy with such a low number, but I bet most office workers do far less.
TY 17y ago
I'm in the same boat - if I don't make myself work, I'll end up reading all the time with zero to show for it. Only one thing makes me deliver: deadline Without deadlines, nothing gets done in my world, as I always get these ideas of how to do something better using the new shiny thing X and there is no end to it. Deadline enforces discipline and requires me to do a good job of planning to allocate the precious time. Makes me say no to pleasant distractions that I would otherwise agree to... Once I have something delivered (or during my consulting work), then I allow myself to go on a "sabbatical": read the books and lurk on HN and LTU. However, the sabbatical must have a scheduled end-date too, otherwise nothing will ever get done. Deadlines must be concrete. Here are mine: my current sabbatical ends in 2 weeks (coincides with the end of my consulting engagement and loss of golden handcuffs http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743). Real work starts on October 4 with a clear deliverable by October 23...
- indigoshift 17y ago
  I'm in the same boat. The deadline is everything. I structure my life around my deadlines, and the closer I get to the deadline, the more everything else ends up playing second fiddle to it. I'm an illustrator, though, not a programmer. But it's nice to be able to tell new clients that I haven't missed a deadline in 15 years. No illness or injury or real-life event can change that. I used to feel guilty for sometimes waiting till the last minute to finish a job, until I watched a documentary about Frank Frazetta. He would get a new painting project and wait till the night before the deadline before even starting on it. He'd stay up all night and get it done on time, then go back to what he was doing--which was usually baseball or (as he got older) golf. :)
hyperbovine 17y ago
Sounds like you have a future in literary criticism then. Seriously. The whole point of the post is "don't fight it," and I for one agree.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  Heh. I don't think so. I'd rather be having sex than doing, too, but I'm not buying a bus ticket to San Fernando Valley.

joez 17y ago

Reminds me of http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html about 15 mins in. You have to show up to work everyday and if your muse doesn't then you did your part.

aditya 17y ago

do you care to share your tricks for doing that, when all you really want to do is read/sleep? how do you discipline yourself so that you don't constantly need inspiration?

joshu 17y ago
My technique was: Just get one thing done. Even if it's an easy, small thing. Get started and do it now. Especially if you don't want to. Having done it, try to do another; it'll be a great deal easier.

timr 17y ago

No. Some people need to do that. Others are workaholics, and need to take a break to inspire creativity. Others work because they're doing what they love, and do not need discipline because they're passionate about something. Others are usually passionate, but need momentary discipline to work through a tedious spot. Everyone is different. One size does not fit all. This is a good place to apply the Paul Bucheit quote: "Limited life experience + Overgeneralization = ADVICE"

joshu 17y ago
The question was "How do I work when I don't feel like it." Workaholics don't ask this. People who are doing what they love and don't need discipline because they're already doing it don't ask this. If you want to make the the world march to your beat, you need to start with your body/self.
- timr 17y ago
  "People who are doing what they love and don't need discipline because they're already doing it don't ask this." Even passionate people go through periods when they don't feel like working, or they're working on some boring task, or whatever. The answer is not always to self-immolate, but to be self-aware, and to figure out why you're not motivated. Sometimes discipline is appropriate; sometimes rest is the better prescription. The world marches to your beat because your beat is inspiring, not because you beat your drum harder than everyone else.
- thaumaturgy 17y ago
  I think there must be a nice middleground between your position and Sivers'. Even workaholics have periods where they need to spend a day reading a book or a weekend camping. In their case, they're just burnt-out somewhat, and need some "recharge" time. They know that they'll be ready to work again soon. Others are lazier by nature, and would spend the majority of their lives doing little or nothing -- and that might include traveling, gardening, reading, playing video games -- and they do need to push themselves if they're going to accomplish anything ... if they want to accomplish anything.

unalone 17y ago

I have a problem with this phrase have to. I don't have to do anything. There is no proven formula that works for anything. Winston Churchill was a lazy, lazy man who succeeded because he was capable of brilliance for the short bursts of time he worked. Brian Wilson spent the infamous three years high in his bedroom, then returned with a series of masterpiece albums. Ricky Gervais was a disc jockey until he was 39, then made possibly the best television show of all time despite being lazy and disruptive both while writing and directing it. Marcel Duchamp spent how long making his fountain? It became the most famous piece of art of the century. While I don't disagree that extraordinary efforts are required to produce things, I don't agree that "extraordinary" means hard work. Sometimes it means a willingness not to work unless the work means something.

joshu 17y ago
I didn't say that you just work hard at any random thing. it's important to do the right things. (I think of myself as very lazy as well; I tend to grind on ideas for months or years until they are simple enough.)
- unalone 17y ago
  In that case I misinterpreted you.
neilc 17y ago
Winston Churchill was a lazy, lazy man who succeeded because he was capable of brilliance for the short bursts of time he worked Do you have a reference for that? My impression was that Churchill had a fairly intense work schedule. For example, http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-cohen061802.asp http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-cohen061802.as... : "Churchill, far from being an aristocratic lounger, was a glutton for work ... His working hours were, it is true, hard on his subordinates, extending as they frequently did into the small hours of the morning."
- unalone 17y ago
  Churchill had a lopsided schedule. He would wake up, work from his bed for a few hours, then sleep through lunch and wake again in the afternoon. He was criticized for not working a proper workday, but he insisted that taking a break in between kept him sharper for longer periods of time. So he wasn't lazy in that he did nothing—he wrote a series of histories and was one of Britain's most influential prime ministers—but he worked a unique schedule.

yesimahuman 17y ago

I wish I had time to read and learn new things, but I feel antsy when I read books anymore, like I could be making things and pushing my product. Seriously, I feel like I only deserve to read when I'm on the toilet and can't really do anything else. I think I need to relax a bit.

UncleOxidant 17y ago

For the sake of argument, I'm going to ask why? I mean why do we work hard and push ourselves? We're all going to end up as worm food eventually anyway. So why push yourself? Why not just enjoy life? Now, of course, I push myself for various reasons: I want income, I want to make the world a better place, I want to learn, etc... but in the end are those reasons for working hard any better than the person who says they want to have a happy life and thus don't work hard or push themselves?