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> That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreadi

> That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreading these past months. Personally, I hope he decides to just create his own language, I would be extremely interested to follow this.

taeric 12y ago
I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly making waves and/or basically turning away from the community after some time... To say that the community seems toxic is an understatement. Granted... this may convince folks that the truely toxic elements have jumped to other pastures. In some ways, this would be better for the typesafe landscape. That seems a stretch, though.
- extempore 12y ago
  > I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. Oh, for sure. The key though is that the value of "it" which I am making worse is not a value of "it" which I have any interest in making better. Nor would I ever suggest otherwise. In your mind I may be nothing but an input into your total utility function, but there's no reason for you to expect me to care about maximizing it.
  - eklavya 12y ago
    I have not the knowledge to make an opinion on this topic but that last line is a really cool statement, what a way to put it :D
  - taeric 12y ago
    Fair enough. I am somewhat curious as to what "it" you plan on making better. Also curious as to why this fork "isn't the kind of fork that hopes eventually to be folded back into the original." That, specifically, just reads bitterly. Also, sadly, at the moment none of this is any real input to any utility I control. I have used Scala in the past. I tried setting my plans with Lift, but that didn't go over well with my coworkers. So, as of now, I am merely on the sidelines. And, do note that I am not trying to demand you not do this. Just saying from my vantage point, I'm not at all clear on what this is improving.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Come on. Scala is a big tent language that attracts people from a wide variety of ideals, which invites some amount of arguing. Also, Martin tends to hire independent thinkers, which is good and bad.
  - extempore 12y ago
    For the record, martin has never hired me for anything. I co-founded a company with him.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      I know nothing about type safe, which is way after my time.
- saryant 12y ago
  The Scala community isn't toxic. There's been drama and each time the community has moved on. Paul, Tony Morris and probably others from before I started paying any attention. Even with this recent "drama", after thinking about it for a few days, I've come to welcome it if anything. Regular Scala can shift its focus to becoming a conservative language while Typelevel acts as the incubator. If the two meet their compatibility goals, everyone wins. I'd also argue that "constantly making waves" is an overstatement. Scala just celebrated its tenth birthday. How much drama has there really been in this community over ten years? For the most part, I've found it to be very supportive. My interactions are almost entirely just on the mailing lists but I've seen few issues. Maybe I'm just blind to them, who knows. I recognize that tensions within the community are high but I don't currently believe that they present an insurmountable challenge to Scala's future.
  - frowaway001 12y ago
    This. You are absolutely right. The usual Scala-hate-brigade will jump on this "smoking gun" and will build a few new talking points on top of it how Scala will fail definitely this time for sure ... but outside their bubble nobody cares and just moves on shipping software in Scala.
    - saryant 12y ago
      I hate to call someone out like this, but to be perfectly honest I don't think your tone helps matters much. Stop attacking the people who don't like Scala (real or imaginary). Disagree, fine, but this rampant fanboyism is odd. Yes, the language has a few critics on HN whose critiques are mostly FUD. Argue against the FUD but when you attack them you only cheapen your own position. I'm just trying to say that there's a way to be effective about this. (I realize I'm attacking a person about attacking a person, I get it)
      - frowaway001 12y ago
        Thanks. I guess I sound more serious than I actually am. I find it kind of funny that we have like usually one username which gifts us with his presence in every Scala-related topic for usually ~6 months and then disappears. Either it's the same guy who just changes accounts like here: http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1sdmdq/sockpuppet_accounts_being_used_in_rscala_by/ http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1sdmdq/sockpuppet_acc... http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/25kwb1/cedric_beust_continues_to_troll_rscala_and_hacker/; http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/25kwb1/cedric_beust_c... or it's a series of people all completely unaware that dozens of earlier crusades failed. Both options are amusing. :-)
sirinath 12y ago
I also would like to see how this goes though he does not seam to be taking this step.

taeric 12y ago

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly making waves and/or basically turning away from the community after some time... To say that the community seems toxic is an understatement. Granted... this may convince folks that the truely toxic elements have jumped to other pastures. In some ways, this would be better for the typesafe landscape. That seems a stretch, though.

extempore 12y ago
> I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. Oh, for sure. The key though is that the value of "it" which I am making worse is not a value of "it" which I have any interest in making better. Nor would I ever suggest otherwise. In your mind I may be nothing but an input into your total utility function, but there's no reason for you to expect me to care about maximizing it.
- eklavya 12y ago
  I have not the knowledge to make an opinion on this topic but that last line is a really cool statement, what a way to put it :D
- taeric 12y ago
  Fair enough. I am somewhat curious as to what "it" you plan on making better. Also curious as to why this fork "isn't the kind of fork that hopes eventually to be folded back into the original." That, specifically, just reads bitterly. Also, sadly, at the moment none of this is any real input to any utility I control. I have used Scala in the past. I tried setting my plans with Lift, but that didn't go over well with my coworkers. So, as of now, I am merely on the sidelines. And, do note that I am not trying to demand you not do this. Just saying from my vantage point, I'm not at all clear on what this is improving.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Come on. Scala is a big tent language that attracts people from a wide variety of ideals, which invites some amount of arguing. Also, Martin tends to hire independent thinkers, which is good and bad.
- extempore 12y ago
  For the record, martin has never hired me for anything. I co-founded a company with him.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    I know nothing about type safe, which is way after my time.
saryant 12y ago
The Scala community isn't toxic. There's been drama and each time the community has moved on. Paul, Tony Morris and probably others from before I started paying any attention. Even with this recent "drama", after thinking about it for a few days, I've come to welcome it if anything. Regular Scala can shift its focus to becoming a conservative language while Typelevel acts as the incubator. If the two meet their compatibility goals, everyone wins. I'd also argue that "constantly making waves" is an overstatement. Scala just celebrated its tenth birthday. How much drama has there really been in this community over ten years? For the most part, I've found it to be very supportive. My interactions are almost entirely just on the mailing lists but I've seen few issues. Maybe I'm just blind to them, who knows. I recognize that tensions within the community are high but I don't currently believe that they present an insurmountable challenge to Scala's future.
- frowaway001 12y ago
  This. You are absolutely right. The usual Scala-hate-brigade will jump on this "smoking gun" and will build a few new talking points on top of it how Scala will fail definitely this time for sure ... but outside their bubble nobody cares and just moves on shipping software in Scala.
  - saryant 12y ago
    I hate to call someone out like this, but to be perfectly honest I don't think your tone helps matters much. Stop attacking the people who don't like Scala (real or imaginary). Disagree, fine, but this rampant fanboyism is odd. Yes, the language has a few critics on HN whose critiques are mostly FUD. Argue against the FUD but when you attack them you only cheapen your own position. I'm just trying to say that there's a way to be effective about this. (I realize I'm attacking a person about attacking a person, I get it)
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      Thanks. I guess I sound more serious than I actually am. I find it kind of funny that we have like usually one username which gifts us with his presence in every Scala-related topic for usually ~6 months and then disappears. Either it's the same guy who just changes accounts like here: http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1sdmdq/sockpuppet_accounts_being_used_in_rscala_by/ http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1sdmdq/sockpuppet_acc... http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/25kwb1/cedric_beust_continues_to_troll_rscala_and_hacker/; http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/25kwb1/cedric_beust_c... or it's a series of people all completely unaware that dozens of earlier crusades failed. Both options are amusing. :-)

sirinath 12y ago

I also would like to see how this goes though he does not seam to be taking this step.