5 ms·

there is in fact more forking happening: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8258255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8258255 https://news.ycombinator.co

by gtani 12y ago

there is in fact more forking happening: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8258255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8258255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8261896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8261896 _____________________________ Many (most?) of the debates regarding the scalac roadmap (and attendant tooling) happened in public on the internals mailing list. The simplest explanation is that nobody agreed on allocation of resources, which were mostly a few Typesafe employees and some (largely unknown but very talented) EPFL grad students. A sample thread https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/scala-internals/9Ts3GLsXuOg/PeWytVtp568J https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/scala-internals/9Ts3GL...

taeric 12y ago
That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. With quotes such as "There's still plenty of very basic stuff in the compiler which doesn't work," I'm honestly not sure how anyone could look forward to a dive. Don't get me wrong. I know that it isn't necessarily the case that "basic" represents "affects plenty of people." But, especially when it was used in a "hits more people than a vocal group that is complaining about a plugin that needs attention," one does get a sense that you will be hit by these things sooner than later.
- frowaway001 12y ago
  The thing is that it's much worse everywhere else, the Scala devs just work with it in a more transparent way.
  - zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
    Your ability of denial is quite impressive but looking at your posting history, it's actually not surprising at all. You seem to have quite a thing about Scala and hating pretty much anything that's not it. Java is at least as transparent as Scala in that respect: every single feature that was shipped as part of Java 8 has been discussed and decided openly on mailing-lists. Everyone knew exactly what was going to be in Java 8 (including what was not going to be shipped) which is a far cry from Scala's operating mode of adding features to the language and then retroactively creating SIPs to give them an air of legitimacy. I'm siding squarely with Paul Phillips there: I don't have a lot of faith in Typesafe to carry Scala forward any more.
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      > Java is at least as transparent as Scala in that respect: every single feature that was shipped as part of Java 8 has been discussed and decided openly on mailing-lists. You are either completely deluded or never actually read the mailing list. But hey, whatever floats your boat. I enjoy watching your desperateness. Really, if you keep posting your talking points in every remotely Scala-related topic, Scala will go away for sure. Really, I promise.
  - taeric 12y ago
    What is worse? I mean, I can understand complaining about speed of feature uptake. But... stability seems pretty good pretty much everywhere else. That is, my complaint here is that the platform is unstable. Thus making it scary to adopt. How is that "worse" everywhere else?
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      > stability seems pretty good pretty much everywhere else Stability is pretty good in Scala, too. Maybe not "nothing changed since 1995"-Java, but better than C#, Python, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, etc.
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  > That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreading these past months. Personally, I hope he decides to just create his own language, I would be extremely interested to follow this.
  - taeric 12y ago
    I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly making waves and/or basically turning away from the community after some time... To say that the community seems toxic is an understatement. Granted... this may convince folks that the truely toxic elements have jumped to other pastures. In some ways, this would be better for the typesafe landscape. That seems a stretch, though.
    - extempore 12y ago
      > I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. Oh, for sure. The key though is that the value of "it" which I am making worse is not a value of "it" which I have any interest in making better. Nor would I ever suggest otherwise. In your mind I may be nothing but an input into your total utility function, but there's no reason for you to expect me to care about maximizing it.
      - eklavya 12y ago
        I have not the knowledge to make an opinion on this topic but that last line is a really cool statement, what a way to put it :D
      - taeric 12y ago
        Fair enough. I am somewhat curious as to what "it" you plan on making better. Also curious as to why this fork "isn't the kind of fork that hopes eventually to be folded back into the original." That, specifically, just reads bitterly. Also, sadly, at the moment none of this is any real input to any utility I control. I have used Scala in the past. I tried setting my plans with Lift, but that didn't go over well with my coworkers. So, as of now, I am merely on the sidelines. And, do note that I am not trying to demand you not do this. Just saying from my vantage point, I'm not at all clear on what this is improving.

by gtani 12y ago

taeric 12y ago

That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. With quotes such as "There's still plenty of very basic stuff in the compiler which doesn't work," I'm honestly not sure how anyone could look forward to a dive. Don't get me wrong. I know that it isn't necessarily the case that "basic" represents "affects plenty of people." But, especially when it was used in a "hits more people than a vocal group that is complaining about a plugin that needs attention," one does get a sense that you will be hit by these things sooner than later.

frowaway001 12y ago
The thing is that it's much worse everywhere else, the Scala devs just work with it in a more transparent way.
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  Your ability of denial is quite impressive but looking at your posting history, it's actually not surprising at all. You seem to have quite a thing about Scala and hating pretty much anything that's not it. Java is at least as transparent as Scala in that respect: every single feature that was shipped as part of Java 8 has been discussed and decided openly on mailing-lists. Everyone knew exactly what was going to be in Java 8 (including what was not going to be shipped) which is a far cry from Scala's operating mode of adding features to the language and then retroactively creating SIPs to give them an air of legitimacy. I'm siding squarely with Paul Phillips there: I don't have a lot of faith in Typesafe to carry Scala forward any more.
  - frowaway001 12y ago
    > Java is at least as transparent as Scala in that respect: every single feature that was shipped as part of Java 8 has been discussed and decided openly on mailing-lists. You are either completely deluded or never actually read the mailing list. But hey, whatever floats your boat. I enjoy watching your desperateness. Really, if you keep posting your talking points in every remotely Scala-related topic, Scala will go away for sure. Really, I promise.
- taeric 12y ago
  What is worse? I mean, I can understand complaining about speed of feature uptake. But... stability seems pretty good pretty much everywhere else. That is, my complaint here is that the platform is unstable. Thus making it scary to adopt. How is that "worse" everywhere else?
  - frowaway001 12y ago
    > stability seems pretty good pretty much everywhere else Stability is pretty good in Scala, too. Maybe not "nothing changed since 1995"-Java, but better than C#, Python, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, etc.
zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
> That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreading these past months. Personally, I hope he decides to just create his own language, I would be extremely interested to follow this.
- taeric 12y ago
  I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly making waves and/or basically turning away from the community after some time... To say that the community seems toxic is an understatement. Granted... this may convince folks that the truely toxic elements have jumped to other pastures. In some ways, this would be better for the typesafe landscape. That seems a stretch, though.
  - extempore 12y ago
    > I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. Oh, for sure. The key though is that the value of "it" which I am making worse is not a value of "it" which I have any interest in making better. Nor would I ever suggest otherwise. In your mind I may be nothing but an input into your total utility function, but there's no reason for you to expect me to care about maximizing it.
    - eklavya 12y ago
      I have not the knowledge to make an opinion on this topic but that last line is a really cool statement, what a way to put it :D
    - taeric 12y ago
      Fair enough. I am somewhat curious as to what "it" you plan on making better. Also curious as to why this fork "isn't the kind of fork that hopes eventually to be folded back into the original." That, specifically, just reads bitterly. Also, sadly, at the moment none of this is any real input to any utility I control. I have used Scala in the past. I tried setting my plans with Lift, but that didn't go over well with my coworkers. So, as of now, I am merely on the sidelines. And, do note that I am not trying to demand you not do this. Just saying from my vantage point, I'm not at all clear on what this is improving.