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The way chickens are raised today is awful, but I don't feel like there is anything we can really do, because the industry is an absolute giant.

runjake 12y ago
"Be the change you want to see in the world." Literally. If moving to a plant-based diet is too extreme, buy organic meats, or locally-raised meats, or have half a steak (chicken breast) at each meal and increase your vegetable and whole grain brown rice portions. Do something.
- canvia 12y ago
  Vote with your dollars. Every dollar you spend is a vote for how you want the world to work. Are you an educated voter?
- joeframbach 12y ago
  Where I work, we sometimes have Meatless Mondays where a group goes out for a vegetarian lunch. It's a habit that has the capabilities to become viral and I fully support it.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  How is buying 'organic' going to help living conditions?
  - runjake 12y ago
    Great point. Something being organic itself doesn't necessarily help living conditions, so good point to bring up. My understanding is that even most grassfed beef in the US is brought into the factory farming system and grain-fed the last few months of its life (a process grimly known as "finishing")
GigabyteCoin 12y ago
There is plenty you can do right now. You don't have to support the giant chicken industry slaughterhouses if you don't want to. You can drive to a free-range chicken farm in the countryside and pay double the store price for a raw unplucked chicken... but why would you? When the ones at the walmart across the street from your house are fully defeathered, cooked, and seasoned for $7.87.
- song 12y ago
  Well the problem is that the ones at Walmart that sell for $7.87 taste awful. So, yes, I buy free range organic chicken from the farmer's market. But I also know that this is a luxury that I can afford because I"m lucky enough to work in a high paying job. I don't believe it's possible to feed everyone organic free range chicken and I appreciate how lucky I am.
- wiredfool 12y ago
  I've had plenty of free range chickens, but I've never seen one sold unplucked. Normally the process is to pop them upside down into a cone, kill them, put them in a plucker, then cut off the neck and remove the innards. It's hard to to that unplucked. Yes, it's more expensive, but I don't really see how any meat raised in decent conditions can cost anywhere near $1/lb.
manachar 12y ago
Don't buy chickens raised in awful environments? Fight laws designed to silence those who seek to promote transparency in ag business? Raise your own chickens or buy from farmers you know and trust? The industry may be a giant, but they still have to respond to market forces. If people don't buy products raised in bad conditions they will adapt or their competitors will.
thenmar 12y ago
One easy change you can make is to give up meat at restaurants, which rarely use meat raised through sustainable practices.
furyofantares 12y ago
You may not personally be able to change a company whose practices you are at odds with. However, every time you consume a chicken that was treated in ways that make you uncomfortable, the company must replace that chicken with another one to sell. In my view, every time you choose to consume (purchase) a chicken that is treated in a way you disagree with, you are responsible for producing a new chicken treated the same way. And every time you choose not to consume a chicken that is treated in a way you disagree with, you have prevented a chicken from being produced under those conditions. Of course many people will conclude that they'd rather have cheap chicken than treat chickens well, and many more people will simply not think very much about it. But if you are personally troubled by how chickens are treated then I think it's worth thinking about your role in causing that. Sorry if all that is obvious and you really just meant you don't feel like there is anything you can do to affect greater change. I am only posting it because I have talked to people who feel a lack of control because they don't believe that their personal consumption has a direct impact on production, which I believe to be incorrect.
- delecti 12y ago
  That perfectly sums up why I stopped eating meat. There was no great moral outrage, and I don't yell at friends who eat meat. I just decided that I was no longer comfortable with my money funding processes that I found objectionable.
existencebox 12y ago
The catch22 is even more disturbing than that, when you realize as a sister comment said, the organic/ethical foods are normally far more expensive. While this is an academic problem for most of the people here, for some living on a tight budget, it's a make or break for even _having_ meat on the table. I see similarities between the issues of trying to remove junkfood consumption, in that you see the highest levels of consumption in the poorest demographics simply because they don't have any other options. Until we can provide those options, or assisted accessibility to those options, I do not think we will ever break the market for unethical/unhealthy food, flavor and preferences aside.
- pyre 12y ago
  > I see similarities between the issues of trying to remove junkfood consumption, in that you see the highest levels of consumption in the poorest demographics simply because they don't have any other options. What about eating, say, a carrot instead of a bag of chips? I can buy 2 pounds of organic carrots for ~$2.50 (probably cheaper non-organic). How does that compare to the average bag of chips?
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    In many cases, produce quality is lower, selection is less, and prices are higher for produce in stores in poor neighborhoods where this can be less true of junk food. It's often expensive to be poor.
  - existencebox 12y ago
    For a time a friend of mine lived in a very bad area in Philadelphia, a bit off Diamond street. The local corner stores had, at best, potatos, and the semi-local supermarkets scaled pricewise to the college student population nearby. You could probably go out of your way and find some affordably priced, but what is convenient and available pales in comparison to the amount of really questionable foods like chips. (bag of chips is probably 49c, 99c for a big one, by the way. So you could get a bunch of chips for the price of those carrots, similarly, you could get something like 2-3 burgers instead. The prices are not such that the carrots seem appealing)
rexf 12y ago
Social media had an impact on Perdue Farms, a poultry company, according to the top comment in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8266058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8266058 so it's not hopeless.
ska 12y ago
The most effective way to influence this as a consumer is 1) Don't buy these products (in any form) 2) Do buy products from people who are doing things differently (in ways you approve of) even if very expensive. Vegetarians do #1, but not #2 - which doesn't encourage a change in practice at all, just a reduction of amounts. It can be hard to stick to #2 when faced with a $20 roasting chicken, but that's the nature of this sort of change. editing additions (above is unchanged) because I was obviously not clear enough. I was responding to a post asking what can be done to change a market like that, not saying anything about the choice of being vegetarian itself. If you decide to become vegetarian for whatever reasons, that is a market signal. However, it is not a market signal to change how meat is being processed, it is a market signal to reduce how much is being produced under any method. DeusExMachina's point is fair, eggs are a valid (for some versions of "vegetarian" [1]. The rest of his comment is exactly the same as what I'm saying - by participating in the market but choosing to buy products that are more expensive because of the way they are raised, you are signalling a value for that practice. This is much more effective for change in how that market produces goods than simply not participating. So to be clear - I'm not making a value judgment on choosing to be a vegetarian, I'm just pointing out something fairly obivous - that not participating in a market is not a very effective way of changing how that market produces things. [1] in my lexicon vegetarians don't eat cheese or eggs either, which is different from vegan's who wouldn't eat honey for example - but that's not really important
- DeusExMachina 12y ago
  I don't really understand your comment about vegetarians not doing #2. First, vegetarians don't buy meat, so yes, they don't do #2 because that's not something they would do. No matter how better animals are treated, vegetarians don't eat meat by definition. Second, it's not even true that they don't buy more expensive products. I'm vegetarian (not vegan) so I eat eggs, but only if they are biological and from free range chickens. Yes, they cost more, but vegetarians don't buy only on cost.
  - jmulho 12y ago
    > but only if they are biological... Aren't all eggs biological?
Yetanfou 12y ago
Well, don't eat them then. In fact, don't eat any industrially-produced meat at all as it is not just the chickens who drew the short straw. If you want to eat chicken and have enough space to keep a few of them, raise your own. If you don't want to raise chickens but still want to eat them, find someone who raises them in a sensible way to provide you. The same goes for pork, beef and whatnot. In practice this will probably reduce your meat consumption quite a bit, which is a good thing. Good for you, and good for us.
ams6110 12y ago
Awful for who? Not for the people who might not otherwise have an affordable source of protein (meat and/or eggs) thanks to the economies of commercial chicken farming.

runjake 12y ago

"Be the change you want to see in the world." Literally. If moving to a plant-based diet is too extreme, buy organic meats, or locally-raised meats, or have half a steak (chicken breast) at each meal and increase your vegetable and whole grain brown rice portions. Do something.

canvia 12y ago
Vote with your dollars. Every dollar you spend is a vote for how you want the world to work. Are you an educated voter?
joeframbach 12y ago
Where I work, we sometimes have Meatless Mondays where a group goes out for a vegetarian lunch. It's a habit that has the capabilities to become viral and I fully support it.
Dylan16807 12y ago
How is buying 'organic' going to help living conditions?
- runjake 12y ago
  Great point. Something being organic itself doesn't necessarily help living conditions, so good point to bring up. My understanding is that even most grassfed beef in the US is brought into the factory farming system and grain-fed the last few months of its life (a process grimly known as "finishing")

GigabyteCoin 12y ago

There is plenty you can do right now. You don't have to support the giant chicken industry slaughterhouses if you don't want to. You can drive to a free-range chicken farm in the countryside and pay double the store price for a raw unplucked chicken... but why would you? When the ones at the walmart across the street from your house are fully defeathered, cooked, and seasoned for $7.87.

song 12y ago
Well the problem is that the ones at Walmart that sell for $7.87 taste awful. So, yes, I buy free range organic chicken from the farmer's market. But I also know that this is a luxury that I can afford because I"m lucky enough to work in a high paying job. I don't believe it's possible to feed everyone organic free range chicken and I appreciate how lucky I am.
wiredfool 12y ago
I've had plenty of free range chickens, but I've never seen one sold unplucked. Normally the process is to pop them upside down into a cone, kill them, put them in a plucker, then cut off the neck and remove the innards. It's hard to to that unplucked. Yes, it's more expensive, but I don't really see how any meat raised in decent conditions can cost anywhere near $1/lb.

manachar 12y ago

Don't buy chickens raised in awful environments? Fight laws designed to silence those who seek to promote transparency in ag business? Raise your own chickens or buy from farmers you know and trust? The industry may be a giant, but they still have to respond to market forces. If people don't buy products raised in bad conditions they will adapt or their competitors will.

thenmar 12y ago

One easy change you can make is to give up meat at restaurants, which rarely use meat raised through sustainable practices.

furyofantares 12y ago

You may not personally be able to change a company whose practices you are at odds with. However, every time you consume a chicken that was treated in ways that make you uncomfortable, the company must replace that chicken with another one to sell. In my view, every time you choose to consume (purchase) a chicken that is treated in a way you disagree with, you are responsible for producing a new chicken treated the same way. And every time you choose not to consume a chicken that is treated in a way you disagree with, you have prevented a chicken from being produced under those conditions. Of course many people will conclude that they'd rather have cheap chicken than treat chickens well, and many more people will simply not think very much about it. But if you are personally troubled by how chickens are treated then I think it's worth thinking about your role in causing that. Sorry if all that is obvious and you really just meant you don't feel like there is anything you can do to affect greater change. I am only posting it because I have talked to people who feel a lack of control because they don't believe that their personal consumption has a direct impact on production, which I believe to be incorrect.

delecti 12y ago
That perfectly sums up why I stopped eating meat. There was no great moral outrage, and I don't yell at friends who eat meat. I just decided that I was no longer comfortable with my money funding processes that I found objectionable.

existencebox 12y ago

The catch22 is even more disturbing than that, when you realize as a sister comment said, the organic/ethical foods are normally far more expensive. While this is an academic problem for most of the people here, for some living on a tight budget, it's a make or break for even _having_ meat on the table. I see similarities between the issues of trying to remove junkfood consumption, in that you see the highest levels of consumption in the poorest demographics simply because they don't have any other options. Until we can provide those options, or assisted accessibility to those options, I do not think we will ever break the market for unethical/unhealthy food, flavor and preferences aside.

pyre 12y ago
> I see similarities between the issues of trying to remove junkfood consumption, in that you see the highest levels of consumption in the poorest demographics simply because they don't have any other options. What about eating, say, a carrot instead of a bag of chips? I can buy 2 pounds of organic carrots for ~$2.50 (probably cheaper non-organic). How does that compare to the average bag of chips?
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  In many cases, produce quality is lower, selection is less, and prices are higher for produce in stores in poor neighborhoods where this can be less true of junk food. It's often expensive to be poor.
- existencebox 12y ago
  For a time a friend of mine lived in a very bad area in Philadelphia, a bit off Diamond street. The local corner stores had, at best, potatos, and the semi-local supermarkets scaled pricewise to the college student population nearby. You could probably go out of your way and find some affordably priced, but what is convenient and available pales in comparison to the amount of really questionable foods like chips. (bag of chips is probably 49c, 99c for a big one, by the way. So you could get a bunch of chips for the price of those carrots, similarly, you could get something like 2-3 burgers instead. The prices are not such that the carrots seem appealing)

rexf 12y ago

Social media had an impact on Perdue Farms, a poultry company, according to the top comment in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8266058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8266058 so it's not hopeless.

ska 12y ago

The most effective way to influence this as a consumer is 1) Don't buy these products (in any form) 2) Do buy products from people who are doing things differently (in ways you approve of) even if very expensive. Vegetarians do #1, but not #2 - which doesn't encourage a change in practice at all, just a reduction of amounts. It can be hard to stick to #2 when faced with a $20 roasting chicken, but that's the nature of this sort of change. editing additions (above is unchanged) because I was obviously not clear enough. I was responding to a post asking what can be done to change a market like that, not saying anything about the choice of being vegetarian itself. If you decide to become vegetarian for whatever reasons, that is a market signal. However, it is not a market signal to change how meat is being processed, it is a market signal to reduce how much is being produced under any method. DeusExMachina's point is fair, eggs are a valid (for some versions of "vegetarian" [1]. The rest of his comment is exactly the same as what I'm saying - by participating in the market but choosing to buy products that are more expensive because of the way they are raised, you are signalling a value for that practice. This is much more effective for change in how that market produces goods than simply not participating. So to be clear - I'm not making a value judgment on choosing to be a vegetarian, I'm just pointing out something fairly obivous - that not participating in a market is not a very effective way of changing how that market produces things. [1] in my lexicon vegetarians don't eat cheese or eggs either, which is different from vegan's who wouldn't eat honey for example - but that's not really important

DeusExMachina 12y ago
I don't really understand your comment about vegetarians not doing #2. First, vegetarians don't buy meat, so yes, they don't do #2 because that's not something they would do. No matter how better animals are treated, vegetarians don't eat meat by definition. Second, it's not even true that they don't buy more expensive products. I'm vegetarian (not vegan) so I eat eggs, but only if they are biological and from free range chickens. Yes, they cost more, but vegetarians don't buy only on cost.
- jmulho 12y ago
  > but only if they are biological... Aren't all eggs biological?

Yetanfou 12y ago

Well, don't eat them then. In fact, don't eat any industrially-produced meat at all as it is not just the chickens who drew the short straw. If you want to eat chicken and have enough space to keep a few of them, raise your own. If you don't want to raise chickens but still want to eat them, find someone who raises them in a sensible way to provide you. The same goes for pork, beef and whatnot. In practice this will probably reduce your meat consumption quite a bit, which is a good thing. Good for you, and good for us.

ams6110 12y ago

Awful for who? Not for the people who might not otherwise have an affordable source of protein (meat and/or eggs) thanks to the economies of commercial chicken farming.