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> This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in Manhattan as well, and I used to think this would help. But then Eric Gar

> This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in Manhattan as well, and I used to think this would help. But then Eric Garner[0] happened. The video evidence there was about as clear as you can get, and still it was amazing how apologetic the responses I saw from both NYPD and other LEOs in other jurisdictions (e.g. /r/ProtectAndServe)[1][2]. And look at Ferguson. We have no shortage of evidence of the atrocities that have been committed there. The problem isn't just pictorial evidence. The problem is actually turning that evidence into action. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner [1] https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_dont_see_what_they_could_have_done_differently/ https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_d... [2] Note that this particular thread was later linked from /r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut so the current state is not representative of what it was when it was initially posted - previously, the comments defending the NYPD had far more support (votes-wise), and many of the comments defending Garner are from readers of the latter subreddit.

Daishiman 12y ago
And this is where the innocent geeks realize that the biggest problems to solve are not technological, but political. No amount of tech will change the fact that if LEOs treat themselves like a gang and the courts side with them through complicit inaction, the only recourse for the people is potentially violent pushback.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  Violent pushback just gives them an excuse to crack down. Nonviolent pushback is ignored. The only way to win is to plaster the media with enough doubt-proof examples of misconduct to convince the silent majority that there's a problem. Cameras are an important first step along that path. They aren't the last step, but they are the first step. Next comes journalism, advocacy, leaking of "lost" footage, campaigning to put restrictions on police testimony in the absence of "lost" footage, penalties for policemen caught breaking the law (perhaps another cycle of journalism and advocacy before this happens), and (eventually) policemen everywhere learning to abandon the slew of shady practices that have crept into their routine.
- snogglethorpe 12y ago
  You're right that the police need to stop being so insular and start treating the public with some respect. "Violent pushback" is not going to help though, it would almost certainly make things worse by making the police's hardline tactics look justified ("look at what we're fighting against!"). It would cause the general population to side (even more) with the police, and would probably result in the police doubling down rather than backing off. As a start, the politicians need to actually hold the police department accountable, and stop deferring to them by default. [I rather liked Bloomberg as a mayor, but the way he seemed to always defer to Ray Kelly and let the latter get away with anything he wanted (which was inevitably horrid) was downright disgusting.]
- rdtsc 12y ago
  As others pointed violent pushback might not work. It won't work unless it is total and simultaneous pushback. As in at the end of the pushback all the LEOs will be removed and replaced with supposedly better LEOs. I don't see this mythical "revolution" ever taking place. Now what might work is a slow burn PR effort that will take years. This mean footage of police abuses being pushed to the front. Sharing footage of police killing pets (dogs) without reason. Sharing them abusing their power. Upvoting stories about police violence. Most importantly, these stories have to involve middle class and higher non-minorities. Those voters, still, as a majority hold the opinion that "police is here to protect us". They have to be exposed to the other side of that message for a while to change their opinion. They can only hold up so long but after seeing innocent children burned by flashbang grenades in no-knock raids. Peaceful family dogs shot in their own yard in front of the children by cop who mistakenly went to the wrong house and so on.
- krschultz 12y ago
  Agree technology is insufficient alone to cause change, but I'm pretty sure that the police killing Eric Gargner wouldn't even be a story without the video. The cops would write the report as resisting arrest and that would be it. Some people would be pissed, but not on the level that happened after the video was widely available. Wouldn't the Michael Brown situation be far clearer if there was a video of the actual shooting? How far away was he? Was he backing up? How did a shot get fired in the police car? Side h actually touch the officer? Etc etc etc. If the facts were indisputable it would be a different conversation.
- XorNot 12y ago
  Civil wars are bad. You don't want one.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
baddox 12y ago
It will certainly take more than cameras, but the cameras should at least help. There will also have to be actual accountability, as in, police officers will have to get into legal trouble for things they do on camera.
jonknee 12y ago
There is an argument that the cop would have been more likely to not have roughed up Eric Garner if he knew he was being recorded by admissible means.
- dunmalg 12y ago
  Not to mention the fact that the perceived lack of action in one particular case does not accurately predict what happens when it turns into hundreds of cases.

Daishiman 12y ago

And this is where the innocent geeks realize that the biggest problems to solve are not technological, but political. No amount of tech will change the fact that if LEOs treat themselves like a gang and the courts side with them through complicit inaction, the only recourse for the people is potentially violent pushback.

jjoonathan 12y ago
Violent pushback just gives them an excuse to crack down. Nonviolent pushback is ignored. The only way to win is to plaster the media with enough doubt-proof examples of misconduct to convince the silent majority that there's a problem. Cameras are an important first step along that path. They aren't the last step, but they are the first step. Next comes journalism, advocacy, leaking of "lost" footage, campaigning to put restrictions on police testimony in the absence of "lost" footage, penalties for policemen caught breaking the law (perhaps another cycle of journalism and advocacy before this happens), and (eventually) policemen everywhere learning to abandon the slew of shady practices that have crept into their routine.
snogglethorpe 12y ago
You're right that the police need to stop being so insular and start treating the public with some respect. "Violent pushback" is not going to help though, it would almost certainly make things worse by making the police's hardline tactics look justified ("look at what we're fighting against!"). It would cause the general population to side (even more) with the police, and would probably result in the police doubling down rather than backing off. As a start, the politicians need to actually hold the police department accountable, and stop deferring to them by default. [I rather liked Bloomberg as a mayor, but the way he seemed to always defer to Ray Kelly and let the latter get away with anything he wanted (which was inevitably horrid) was downright disgusting.]
rdtsc 12y ago
As others pointed violent pushback might not work. It won't work unless it is total and simultaneous pushback. As in at the end of the pushback all the LEOs will be removed and replaced with supposedly better LEOs. I don't see this mythical "revolution" ever taking place. Now what might work is a slow burn PR effort that will take years. This mean footage of police abuses being pushed to the front. Sharing footage of police killing pets (dogs) without reason. Sharing them abusing their power. Upvoting stories about police violence. Most importantly, these stories have to involve middle class and higher non-minorities. Those voters, still, as a majority hold the opinion that "police is here to protect us". They have to be exposed to the other side of that message for a while to change their opinion. They can only hold up so long but after seeing innocent children burned by flashbang grenades in no-knock raids. Peaceful family dogs shot in their own yard in front of the children by cop who mistakenly went to the wrong house and so on.
krschultz 12y ago
Agree technology is insufficient alone to cause change, but I'm pretty sure that the police killing Eric Gargner wouldn't even be a story without the video. The cops would write the report as resisting arrest and that would be it. Some people would be pissed, but not on the level that happened after the video was widely available. Wouldn't the Michael Brown situation be far clearer if there was a video of the actual shooting? How far away was he? Was he backing up? How did a shot get fired in the police car? Side h actually touch the officer? Etc etc etc. If the facts were indisputable it would be a different conversation.
XorNot 12y ago
Civil wars are bad. You don't want one.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

baddox 12y ago

It will certainly take more than cameras, but the cameras should at least help. There will also have to be actual accountability, as in, police officers will have to get into legal trouble for things they do on camera.

jonknee 12y ago

There is an argument that the cop would have been more likely to not have roughed up Eric Garner if he knew he was being recorded by admissible means.

dunmalg 12y ago
Not to mention the fact that the perceived lack of action in one particular case does not accurately predict what happens when it turns into hundreds of cases.