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This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in a lower Manhattan, and as a well-dressed white person, my interactions with p

This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in a lower Manhattan, and as a well-dressed white person, my interactions with police are invariably polite and deferential (including when I got a ticket for running a red light on a Citibike last month). But I know from friends that those same police officers become totally different people when in a different environment (particularly uptown and in poorer Brooklyn neighborhoods) and especially when dealing with people of color. There is bullying, there is haughtiness, and there is often a complete lack of respect. Video cameras can change that. The knowledge that any citizen can file a complaint about an unnecessarily hostile interaction means that police officers will begin to act the way they are supposed to, as the only members of our community to whom we grant a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force. I also believe that video cameras will have a positive impact on police, increasing the respect they receive from the community and their self-respect, and enabling them to prove that they are often in the right around contested confrontations.

chimeracoder 12y ago
> This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in Manhattan as well, and I used to think this would help. But then Eric Garner[0] happened. The video evidence there was about as clear as you can get, and still it was amazing how apologetic the responses I saw from both NYPD and other LEOs in other jurisdictions (e.g. /r/ProtectAndServe)[1][2]. And look at Ferguson. We have no shortage of evidence of the atrocities that have been committed there. The problem isn't just pictorial evidence. The problem is actually turning that evidence into action. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner [1] https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_dont_see_what_they_could_have_done_differently/ https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_d... [2] Note that this particular thread was later linked from /r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut so the current state is not representative of what it was when it was initially posted - previously, the comments defending the NYPD had far more support (votes-wise), and many of the comments defending Garner are from readers of the latter subreddit.
- Daishiman 12y ago
  And this is where the innocent geeks realize that the biggest problems to solve are not technological, but political. No amount of tech will change the fact that if LEOs treat themselves like a gang and the courts side with them through complicit inaction, the only recourse for the people is potentially violent pushback.
  - jjoonathan 12y ago
    Violent pushback just gives them an excuse to crack down. Nonviolent pushback is ignored. The only way to win is to plaster the media with enough doubt-proof examples of misconduct to convince the silent majority that there's a problem. Cameras are an important first step along that path. They aren't the last step, but they are the first step. Next comes journalism, advocacy, leaking of "lost" footage, campaigning to put restrictions on police testimony in the absence of "lost" footage, penalties for policemen caught breaking the law (perhaps another cycle of journalism and advocacy before this happens), and (eventually) policemen everywhere learning to abandon the slew of shady practices that have crept into their routine.
  - snogglethorpe 12y ago
    You're right that the police need to stop being so insular and start treating the public with some respect. "Violent pushback" is not going to help though, it would almost certainly make things worse by making the police's hardline tactics look justified ("look at what we're fighting against!"). It would cause the general population to side (even more) with the police, and would probably result in the police doubling down rather than backing off. As a start, the politicians need to actually hold the police department accountable, and stop deferring to them by default. [I rather liked Bloomberg as a mayor, but the way he seemed to always defer to Ray Kelly and let the latter get away with anything he wanted (which was inevitably horrid) was downright disgusting.]
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    As others pointed violent pushback might not work. It won't work unless it is total and simultaneous pushback. As in at the end of the pushback all the LEOs will be removed and replaced with supposedly better LEOs. I don't see this mythical "revolution" ever taking place. Now what might work is a slow burn PR effort that will take years. This mean footage of police abuses being pushed to the front. Sharing footage of police killing pets (dogs) without reason. Sharing them abusing their power. Upvoting stories about police violence. Most importantly, these stories have to involve middle class and higher non-minorities. Those voters, still, as a majority hold the opinion that "police is here to protect us". They have to be exposed to the other side of that message for a while to change their opinion. They can only hold up so long but after seeing innocent children burned by flashbang grenades in no-knock raids. Peaceful family dogs shot in their own yard in front of the children by cop who mistakenly went to the wrong house and so on.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
I've had a couple of interactions with the NYPD, and it's never been polite or deferential. It wouldn't surprise me if it's on average worse for non-Asian minorities, but don't think that being white will keep you safe. Bodycams can help protect all of us from the cops.
- duaneb 12y ago
  As a white male, I've experienced nothing but respect from police officers. Of course I'm horrified by the reality of stop-and-frisk, but NYPD is far from a force of racist assholes. Body cams will definitely help, but let's not classify them hastily.
  - zem 12y ago
    > As a white male, I've experienced nothing but respect from police officers > NYPD is far from a force of racist assholes i don't think the first statement adds any sort of confirmation to the second (i.e. you literally can tell nothing about how racist nypd are based solely on your interactions with them).
  - serf 12y ago
    As a white male, I've routinely been disrespected and stopped extraneously in California, Massachusetts, and New York, without further ticketing or incident, just merely as a form of harassment. I'm inclined to believe that gender and race have little to do with the dealings of a power-hungry organization, and even more inclined to believe that personal (anecdotal) race/age/gender has even less to do with understanding the power-grab that's going on between military groups and the rapidly growing 'paramilitary' that people seem to believe various PDs are growing into.
    - justinsteele 12y ago
      As a white male, I disagree with your belief that race has little to do with police interactions. http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data There is much, much more data as well. It's rather frightening that it has taken this long for us to do anything about it.
jobu 12y ago
It goes both ways. Average citizens tend to behave a little better when they know they're being filmed, and sometimes spurious complaints about officers are dropped when people watch the video of their interaction.
Apofis 12y ago
Living in South Brooklyn, maybe 10% of my interactions with police have been pleasant. FFS, me and my boss got pulled over by undercover police just last month on a bullshit pretense that we didn't signal the turn, which he did 100%. He was wearing a suit and I was dressed casual. We were pulled out of the car, his car was searched without consent and I was searched without consent. I got into an argument with the cop because they violated our rights and the Sergeant kept on going on and on about how an unsignaled left turn is probable cause. Fuck that shit, we weren't doing anything wrong and are far from looking like drug dealers or gang bangers. What were we doing before the stop? Boss stopped by a bank, then we got in the car, stopped a few blocks away at a cell phone store where I bought something, I got back in the car and we got pulled over on the first turn. I for one can't wait for police to have body cameras, because then it stops being your word against the cops. And that changes everything, it gives leeway for people that want to fight these kind of daily infringements on our rights.
- apaprocki 12y ago
  I once was driving down Nostrand Ave and there were two unmarked cars stopped side-by-side blocking both lanes in the middle of the street. I slowed, stopped, sat there for 5 seconds waiting and then leaned on the horn. The car in the outer lane went and I continued forward. He then ran up behind me and turned on lights. He immediately came over annoyed that I had the nerve to honk at him and told me he was writing me a ticket because my passenger wasn't wearing her seat belt (she was -- he didn't even look in the car). I was able to diffuse the situation but it is tiny little abuses of power like this that lead to bigger ones.
  - Apofis 12y ago
    And that's exactly what I'm talking about, this kind of bullshit would stop if they had body cameras. Plainclothes detectives in NYC are even worse than regular cops, they're arrogant dickheads that think they're above the law.
- kansface 12y ago
  Arguing with a police officer is a surefire way to get arrested. Assert your rights in court, not on the street.
Shivetya 12y ago
So where is the protection from all their video taping being used for data mining purposes? I can see a future where their cameras are on all the time or nearly all the time. This indirect recording would treated similarly to how they now treat license plate scanners and I do not doubt some police are actively hoping they can. So yeah while its nice that cops will have to wear them there needs to be sufficient protection from extending what they are used for. I don't want to live in a world where every cop I walk by, see or don't see, records me.
- brandonmenc 12y ago
  The solution is to keep the recordings locked and unviewed until the court needs them as evidence.
  - hndamien 12y ago
    Great idea.
    - pawn 12y ago
      In case you're wondering why you were downvoted, it's not that people disagree with you, but that people don't want to see comments of agreement or disagreement without anything else to say.
- polarix 12y ago
  Every cop you walk by is already recording you, in a forgetful, hostile, and potentially hallucinatory medium.
  - knodi123 12y ago
    yeah, but he's talking about automated indexing by a database. not really relevant.
  - Crito 12y ago
    While typically a bad thing (see, the unreliability of eye-witness testimony) it isn't always. It is easy to imagine a near-future where all police lapel-cams feed into a centralized database where facial recognition can be used to retro-actively follow individuals throughout the city. It is just as easy to imagine ways that this could be abused. This sort of tracking can and is already be done manually in relatively small areas using CCTV footage (airports, malls, hotels), but expect to see it become "a thing" for entire cities. "Quantity has a quality all its own." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh#Investigation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mab... "The chief of Dubai Police Dhahi Khalfan Tamim said that there are 648 hours of video films in which the 27 suspected persons are appearing.[110]"
chrischen 12y ago
It's not just police officers, but really anyone is subject to prejudice. I was sitting in a hotel once (I wasn't staying there), and some thug-gy teens came in asking if they could use the phone to make the call. They were denied the privilege so they came to me to ask if I could let them use their phone. I let them use the phone under the condition that I hold it and put it on speaker. No one picked up so I went to the hotel staff and asked them if they could let them use their phone. To my surprise, the staff started to apologize to me and said they'd called security. Point of the story is that almost everyone is prejudiced against thug-looking-people and it's often misattributed to racism.
- knodi123 12y ago
  I literally cannot understand your second paragraph. Way too many vague pronouns and probably typos.
  - dntrkv 12y ago
    Teens asked to use hotel's phone, hotel staff said no. Teens asked if they could use the OP's phone, he let them but nobody picked up. OP asked hotel staff if they could use the hotel's phone. Staff told OP they already called security on the teens because they are "thuggy" looking. At least that's how I understood it.
- jacalata 12y ago
  Or that peoples perceptions of "thuggishness" are partly based on racism? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140306095117.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140306095117.ht...
- Steuard 12y ago
  "Point of the story is that almost everyone is prejudiced against thug-looking-people and it's often misattributed to racism." I don't think I follow you here. I think that most folks concerned about racism in these situations would say that race is a big factor in how folks define "thug looking". (I'd be willing to bet that for a whole lot of people, there's a range of intermediate dress/appearance/behavior where they'd say a white person was not "thug looking" but an equivalent-looking black person was not.)
dataminded 12y ago
The NYPD is the most racist and abusive police force that I have encountered in the United States. I'm really looking forward to the cameras.
- r00fus 12y ago
  More than the LAPD? Watts Riots? Rodney King? Or is it just that the LAPD is closer to the limelight? The problem with US police almost everywhere is that they have been corrupted, both by big corporations and the war on drugs. I'm not sure if it's possible to clean house, since the judiciary is likely similarly corrupt and police and judiciary support each other.
bmmayer1 12y ago
The more troubling aspect of this story that no one seems to be talking about is that these cameras are being introduced because somewhere the presumption of innocence on the part of citizens is being abridged. We shouldn't have to require police to wear cameras to prove our innocence. The courts should be more stringent in their requirements for evidence in proving our guilt instead. Police testimony counts too much and too little evidence is required to have unconstitutional stop-and-frisks hold up in court.
- Apofis 12y ago
  It shouldn't be this way, but sadly it is. At least in NYC, a cops word is bond basically. Body cameras will help curb this bullshit.
rbcgerard 12y ago
The devil will be in the policy: Will there be a PRESUMPTION that the civilian is telling the truth if there is no video? Will officers ACTUALLY be disciplined for not having recorded an incident? Also, it sounds like from reading this story, that should someone contest the events in a police report, officers will get to go back, review the video and get to change their story depending on how damaging the video is...

chimeracoder 12y ago

> This will turn out to be the most important technology news of the year. I live in Manhattan as well, and I used to think this would help. But then Eric Garner[0] happened. The video evidence there was about as clear as you can get, and still it was amazing how apologetic the responses I saw from both NYPD and other LEOs in other jurisdictions (e.g. /r/ProtectAndServe)[1][2]. And look at Ferguson. We have no shortage of evidence of the atrocities that have been committed there. The problem isn't just pictorial evidence. The problem is actually turning that evidence into action. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner [1] https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_dont_see_what_they_could_have_done_differently/ https://pay.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/2b4on3/i_d... [2] Note that this particular thread was later linked from /r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut so the current state is not representative of what it was when it was initially posted - previously, the comments defending the NYPD had far more support (votes-wise), and many of the comments defending Garner are from readers of the latter subreddit.

Daishiman 12y ago
And this is where the innocent geeks realize that the biggest problems to solve are not technological, but political. No amount of tech will change the fact that if LEOs treat themselves like a gang and the courts side with them through complicit inaction, the only recourse for the people is potentially violent pushback.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  Violent pushback just gives them an excuse to crack down. Nonviolent pushback is ignored. The only way to win is to plaster the media with enough doubt-proof examples of misconduct to convince the silent majority that there's a problem. Cameras are an important first step along that path. They aren't the last step, but they are the first step. Next comes journalism, advocacy, leaking of "lost" footage, campaigning to put restrictions on police testimony in the absence of "lost" footage, penalties for policemen caught breaking the law (perhaps another cycle of journalism and advocacy before this happens), and (eventually) policemen everywhere learning to abandon the slew of shady practices that have crept into their routine.
- snogglethorpe 12y ago
  You're right that the police need to stop being so insular and start treating the public with some respect. "Violent pushback" is not going to help though, it would almost certainly make things worse by making the police's hardline tactics look justified ("look at what we're fighting against!"). It would cause the general population to side (even more) with the police, and would probably result in the police doubling down rather than backing off. As a start, the politicians need to actually hold the police department accountable, and stop deferring to them by default. [I rather liked Bloomberg as a mayor, but the way he seemed to always defer to Ray Kelly and let the latter get away with anything he wanted (which was inevitably horrid) was downright disgusting.]
- rdtsc 12y ago
  As others pointed violent pushback might not work. It won't work unless it is total and simultaneous pushback. As in at the end of the pushback all the LEOs will be removed and replaced with supposedly better LEOs. I don't see this mythical "revolution" ever taking place. Now what might work is a slow burn PR effort that will take years. This mean footage of police abuses being pushed to the front. Sharing footage of police killing pets (dogs) without reason. Sharing them abusing their power. Upvoting stories about police violence. Most importantly, these stories have to involve middle class and higher non-minorities. Those voters, still, as a majority hold the opinion that "police is here to protect us". They have to be exposed to the other side of that message for a while to change their opinion. They can only hold up so long but after seeing innocent children burned by flashbang grenades in no-knock raids. Peaceful family dogs shot in their own yard in front of the children by cop who mistakenly went to the wrong house and so on.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

I've had a couple of interactions with the NYPD, and it's never been polite or deferential. It wouldn't surprise me if it's on average worse for non-Asian minorities, but don't think that being white will keep you safe. Bodycams can help protect all of us from the cops.

duaneb 12y ago
As a white male, I've experienced nothing but respect from police officers. Of course I'm horrified by the reality of stop-and-frisk, but NYPD is far from a force of racist assholes. Body cams will definitely help, but let's not classify them hastily.
- zem 12y ago
  > As a white male, I've experienced nothing but respect from police officers > NYPD is far from a force of racist assholes i don't think the first statement adds any sort of confirmation to the second (i.e. you literally can tell nothing about how racist nypd are based solely on your interactions with them).
- serf 12y ago
  As a white male, I've routinely been disrespected and stopped extraneously in California, Massachusetts, and New York, without further ticketing or incident, just merely as a form of harassment. I'm inclined to believe that gender and race have little to do with the dealings of a power-hungry organization, and even more inclined to believe that personal (anecdotal) race/age/gender has even less to do with understanding the power-grab that's going on between military groups and the rapidly growing 'paramilitary' that people seem to believe various PDs are growing into.
  - justinsteele 12y ago
    As a white male, I disagree with your belief that race has little to do with police interactions. http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data There is much, much more data as well. It's rather frightening that it has taken this long for us to do anything about it.

jobu 12y ago

It goes both ways. Average citizens tend to behave a little better when they know they're being filmed, and sometimes spurious complaints about officers are dropped when people watch the video of their interaction.

Apofis 12y ago

Living in South Brooklyn, maybe 10% of my interactions with police have been pleasant. FFS, me and my boss got pulled over by undercover police just last month on a bullshit pretense that we didn't signal the turn, which he did 100%. He was wearing a suit and I was dressed casual. We were pulled out of the car, his car was searched without consent and I was searched without consent. I got into an argument with the cop because they violated our rights and the Sergeant kept on going on and on about how an unsignaled left turn is probable cause. Fuck that shit, we weren't doing anything wrong and are far from looking like drug dealers or gang bangers. What were we doing before the stop? Boss stopped by a bank, then we got in the car, stopped a few blocks away at a cell phone store where I bought something, I got back in the car and we got pulled over on the first turn. I for one can't wait for police to have body cameras, because then it stops being your word against the cops. And that changes everything, it gives leeway for people that want to fight these kind of daily infringements on our rights.

apaprocki 12y ago
I once was driving down Nostrand Ave and there were two unmarked cars stopped side-by-side blocking both lanes in the middle of the street. I slowed, stopped, sat there for 5 seconds waiting and then leaned on the horn. The car in the outer lane went and I continued forward. He then ran up behind me and turned on lights. He immediately came over annoyed that I had the nerve to honk at him and told me he was writing me a ticket because my passenger wasn't wearing her seat belt (she was -- he didn't even look in the car). I was able to diffuse the situation but it is tiny little abuses of power like this that lead to bigger ones.
- Apofis 12y ago
  And that's exactly what I'm talking about, this kind of bullshit would stop if they had body cameras. Plainclothes detectives in NYC are even worse than regular cops, they're arrogant dickheads that think they're above the law.
kansface 12y ago
Arguing with a police officer is a surefire way to get arrested. Assert your rights in court, not on the street.

Shivetya 12y ago

So where is the protection from all their video taping being used for data mining purposes? I can see a future where their cameras are on all the time or nearly all the time. This indirect recording would treated similarly to how they now treat license plate scanners and I do not doubt some police are actively hoping they can. So yeah while its nice that cops will have to wear them there needs to be sufficient protection from extending what they are used for. I don't want to live in a world where every cop I walk by, see or don't see, records me.

brandonmenc 12y ago
The solution is to keep the recordings locked and unviewed until the court needs them as evidence.
- hndamien 12y ago
  Great idea.
  - pawn 12y ago
    In case you're wondering why you were downvoted, it's not that people disagree with you, but that people don't want to see comments of agreement or disagreement without anything else to say.
polarix 12y ago
Every cop you walk by is already recording you, in a forgetful, hostile, and potentially hallucinatory medium.
- knodi123 12y ago
  yeah, but he's talking about automated indexing by a database. not really relevant.
- Crito 12y ago
  While typically a bad thing (see, the unreliability of eye-witness testimony) it isn't always. It is easy to imagine a near-future where all police lapel-cams feed into a centralized database where facial recognition can be used to retro-actively follow individuals throughout the city. It is just as easy to imagine ways that this could be abused. This sort of tracking can and is already be done manually in relatively small areas using CCTV footage (airports, malls, hotels), but expect to see it become "a thing" for entire cities. "Quantity has a quality all its own." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh#Investigation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mab... "The chief of Dubai Police Dhahi Khalfan Tamim said that there are 648 hours of video films in which the 27 suspected persons are appearing.[110]"

chrischen 12y ago

It's not just police officers, but really anyone is subject to prejudice. I was sitting in a hotel once (I wasn't staying there), and some thug-gy teens came in asking if they could use the phone to make the call. They were denied the privilege so they came to me to ask if I could let them use their phone. I let them use the phone under the condition that I hold it and put it on speaker. No one picked up so I went to the hotel staff and asked them if they could let them use their phone. To my surprise, the staff started to apologize to me and said they'd called security. Point of the story is that almost everyone is prejudiced against thug-looking-people and it's often misattributed to racism.

knodi123 12y ago
I literally cannot understand your second paragraph. Way too many vague pronouns and probably typos.
- dntrkv 12y ago
  Teens asked to use hotel's phone, hotel staff said no. Teens asked if they could use the OP's phone, he let them but nobody picked up. OP asked hotel staff if they could use the hotel's phone. Staff told OP they already called security on the teens because they are "thuggy" looking. At least that's how I understood it.
jacalata 12y ago
Or that peoples perceptions of "thuggishness" are partly based on racism? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140306095117.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140306095117.ht...
Steuard 12y ago
"Point of the story is that almost everyone is prejudiced against thug-looking-people and it's often misattributed to racism." I don't think I follow you here. I think that most folks concerned about racism in these situations would say that race is a big factor in how folks define "thug looking". (I'd be willing to bet that for a whole lot of people, there's a range of intermediate dress/appearance/behavior where they'd say a white person was not "thug looking" but an equivalent-looking black person was not.)

dataminded 12y ago

The NYPD is the most racist and abusive police force that I have encountered in the United States. I'm really looking forward to the cameras.

r00fus 12y ago
More than the LAPD? Watts Riots? Rodney King? Or is it just that the LAPD is closer to the limelight? The problem with US police almost everywhere is that they have been corrupted, both by big corporations and the war on drugs. I'm not sure if it's possible to clean house, since the judiciary is likely similarly corrupt and police and judiciary support each other.

bmmayer1 12y ago

The more troubling aspect of this story that no one seems to be talking about is that these cameras are being introduced because somewhere the presumption of innocence on the part of citizens is being abridged. We shouldn't have to require police to wear cameras to prove our innocence. The courts should be more stringent in their requirements for evidence in proving our guilt instead. Police testimony counts too much and too little evidence is required to have unconstitutional stop-and-frisks hold up in court.

Apofis 12y ago
It shouldn't be this way, but sadly it is. At least in NYC, a cops word is bond basically. Body cameras will help curb this bullshit.

rbcgerard 12y ago

The devil will be in the policy: Will there be a PRESUMPTION that the civilian is telling the truth if there is no video? Will officers ACTUALLY be disciplined for not having recorded an incident? Also, it sounds like from reading this story, that should someone contest the events in a police report, officers will get to go back, review the video and get to change their story depending on how damaging the video is...