5 ms·

I did not want to comment in this thread as I am heavily biased and my opinion cannot be very objective, but let me just try to clarify some facts: About me: I

by fasteo 12y ago

I did not want to comment in this thread as I am heavily biased and my opinion cannot be very objective, but let me just try to clarify some facts: About me: I do have a mitochondrial disease. In some of my cells, my mitochondrial DNA is not complete. If you think about it as a circle, about one third of that circle is missing. It is called a "heteroplasmic single deletion mtDNA mutation". 1. The mitochondrial DNA, much like the nuclear DNA, is a blueprint for building bits and pieces of our body. 2. The mitochondrial DNA encodes parts that are necessary to build the electron transport chain, i.e., to derive energy from food. In the car analogy, it encodes parts of the core engine (spark, combustion chamber, etc); the last step in the whole metabolic process. 3. The mitochondrial DNA does not encode anything outside of the electron transport chain. So, no blue eyes, no blonde, no smart. Nada. 4. This law will allow some kids to have a normal metabolism and a normal life. Nothing more. Nothing less. 5. I am well aware that this will open lots of possibilities for future genetic manipulation, but bear in mind that mtDNA is much more simpler than nuclear DNA and they are two distinct entities, so this law has no application in the field of traditional (nuclear) genetic manipulation. Hope this helps.

iwwr 12y ago
Maybe whole chromosome replacement can also be a starting way to cure some genetic diseases. In particular the Y-chromosome, which does not undergo recombination and so changes to it could be easier to predict.
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
>4. This law will allow some kids to have a normal metabolism and a normal life. Nothing more. Nothing less. // I don't get it. Of course on a personal level we have a biological drive, like a hunger, to have children. But on a group level I don't understand why we find it necessary to satisfy that need? The problem of children with mitochondrial problems being born, as in Bernardi's case in the article, could seemingly be solved by her having had a test to determine if she had mitochondrial disease (ie she would, in the future, qualify for this cytoplasmic transfer treatment) and then her not having biological children of her own. That would also rule out the potential for unknown complications later To me our current population seems barely sustainable and we already have plenty of orphans in need of families to care for them. It doesn't add up. Now, I'm sure if I were in the situation of this enabling me to have a biological family then I'd want it, that seems entirely natural. But objectively how does that benefit my community, country, the world?
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "To me our current population seems barely sustainable" Which population? Population in Africa is barely sustainable, but they aren't getting mitochondria implants there, not even diag. Population in e. g. Germany is shrinking, they have money and they certainly want to make sure everybody who is willing to bear kids get them. That's two different populations with different solution.
  - ithkuil 12y ago
    The african continent is 30 million square kilometers and 1.1 billion people. India is 3 million square kilometers with 1.2 billion people.
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      Okay, we're excluding India too. How about Europe?
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    The global population of 8 billion for the resources available on the planet in order to create sustainability going forward that will allow the planet to continue to sustain 8 billion people - and the greater number as death rates decline - for the foreseeable future. According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany, Germany's natural population as deaths-vs-births has declined by up to 0.24% (-2.4 per mille listed on Wikipedia) per annum. However, the same page indicates that Germany has the largest migrant population - 10 million people - who are not in those figures. I've not looked at their population stats in detail but first indications are that their population is not falling. Natural population of European countries falling doesn't create extra resources on the planet. Lets turn it around, explain why Germany need an increase in endemic population? How does that benefit the rest of us?
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      Endemic German population don't need to explain itself to "the rest of you" because it is self-sufficient and even generating substantial "revenue" being an industry locomotive. On the other hand, endemic African population can't even feed themself and rely on foreign aid and still starve. It is obvious that we should make sure stable and productive society remains stable. Yes, lifting Africa out of poverty is important, but more important is not kicking Germany into poverty. Which might as well happen if we populate it with random starving people from that 8 billion and order them fed no matter what. So, Germans are going to try to keep their endemic population and culture because they can and should. And the "rest of you" should probably learn how to survive without wasting precious planetary surface.
exratione 12y ago
Fortunately you probably won't have to go more than another ten years or so with that condition before it can be treated via either allotopic expression [1] of mitochondrial genes (e.g. as demonstrated for the single gene mutation in LHON [2]), delivery of whole replacement mitochondria [3], or possibly protofection of an entire replacement mitochondrial genome, although that latter item seems to have stumbled to one of those funding-related halts so common in research [4]. The others are presently pursued, though by no means as aggressively as the potential benefits merit. Everyone need mitochondria repair, not just people with inherited or other global genetic defects of the mitochondria. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotopic_expression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotopic_expression [2]: http://archopht.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1814538 http://archopht.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=18145... [3]: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.transproceed.2013.11.133 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.transproceed.2013.11.133 [4]: https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/10/what-happened-to-protofection.php https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/10/what-happened-to...
- fasteo 12y ago
  That´s also my understanding (and my hope). My bet is on heteroplasmic shift though. This will not actually "cure" the disease, but it will minimize its effects. Specifically, I am closely following the work with mitoTALENs [1]. I have no scientific background, but I find this route easier, both technically and legally. Note the Dr. Aubrey de Grey does not agree with me either [2] :) [1] Mutation specific compounds that will locate and degrade mutant mitochondria. Once degraded, mutant mitochondria will go through the normal cellular housekeeping (apoptosis) http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n9/full/nm.3261.html http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n9/full/nm.3261.html [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de_grey_ama/cia21sf http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de...
  - exratione 12y ago
    I agree that mitoTALENs look promising, as does some early work on delivering RNA to mitochondria so that the necessary proteins get made even in the absence of genes. That said, I'd have said the same about exploiting mechanisms in leishmania [1] to deliver useful molecules to mitochondria if you'd asked me five years ago. That line of work seems to be in the doldrums too at this point, not much progress to be seen. The most promising sign is the metasign - that we can compare and contrast so many different approaches, and complain because some are not getting more attention. Yet overall things are happening. [1] http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5798/471 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5798/471
QuantumChaos 12y ago
I don't think you have addressed all the concerns in the article. You say >4. This law will allow some kids to have a normal metabolism and a normal life. Nothing more. Nothing less. But the objection of Dr. Morrow is that the procedure may have risks for the children involved (and their children also). Whenever there are risks as well as benefits, there needs to be a discussion as to what is ethical.
- fasteo 12y ago
  Fair enough, and I agree with Dr. Morrow. My post was more about not confusing "à la carte" kids with mitochondrial DNA manipulation. I have read too many articles that fall into the "blonde, blue eyes and smart kids" category. This law is not about this at all.
  - QuantumChaos 12y ago
    agreed, I would characterize the procedure as a medical treatment of a disease, so put that way I agree with your point 4.
NIL8 12y ago
Your reply was helpful and insightful. Thanks you.

by fasteo 12y ago

iwwr 12y ago

Maybe whole chromosome replacement can also be a starting way to cure some genetic diseases. In particular the Y-chromosome, which does not undergo recombination and so changes to it could be easier to predict.

pbhjpbhj 12y ago

>4. This law will allow some kids to have a normal metabolism and a normal life. Nothing more. Nothing less. // I don't get it. Of course on a personal level we have a biological drive, like a hunger, to have children. But on a group level I don't understand why we find it necessary to satisfy that need? The problem of children with mitochondrial problems being born, as in Bernardi's case in the article, could seemingly be solved by her having had a test to determine if she had mitochondrial disease (ie she would, in the future, qualify for this cytoplasmic transfer treatment) and then her not having biological children of her own. That would also rule out the potential for unknown complications later To me our current population seems barely sustainable and we already have plenty of orphans in need of families to care for them. It doesn't add up. Now, I'm sure if I were in the situation of this enabling me to have a biological family then I'd want it, that seems entirely natural. But objectively how does that benefit my community, country, the world?

guard-of-terra 12y ago
"To me our current population seems barely sustainable" Which population? Population in Africa is barely sustainable, but they aren't getting mitochondria implants there, not even diag. Population in e. g. Germany is shrinking, they have money and they certainly want to make sure everybody who is willing to bear kids get them. That's two different populations with different solution.
- ithkuil 12y ago
  The african continent is 30 million square kilometers and 1.1 billion people. India is 3 million square kilometers with 1.2 billion people.
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Okay, we're excluding India too. How about Europe?
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  The global population of 8 billion for the resources available on the planet in order to create sustainability going forward that will allow the planet to continue to sustain 8 billion people - and the greater number as death rates decline - for the foreseeable future. According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany, Germany's natural population as deaths-vs-births has declined by up to 0.24% (-2.4 per mille listed on Wikipedia) per annum. However, the same page indicates that Germany has the largest migrant population - 10 million people - who are not in those figures. I've not looked at their population stats in detail but first indications are that their population is not falling. Natural population of European countries falling doesn't create extra resources on the planet. Lets turn it around, explain why Germany need an increase in endemic population? How does that benefit the rest of us?
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Endemic German population don't need to explain itself to "the rest of you" because it is self-sufficient and even generating substantial "revenue" being an industry locomotive. On the other hand, endemic African population can't even feed themself and rely on foreign aid and still starve. It is obvious that we should make sure stable and productive society remains stable. Yes, lifting Africa out of poverty is important, but more important is not kicking Germany into poverty. Which might as well happen if we populate it with random starving people from that 8 billion and order them fed no matter what. So, Germans are going to try to keep their endemic population and culture because they can and should. And the "rest of you" should probably learn how to survive without wasting precious planetary surface.

exratione 12y ago

Fortunately you probably won't have to go more than another ten years or so with that condition before it can be treated via either allotopic expression [1] of mitochondrial genes (e.g. as demonstrated for the single gene mutation in LHON [2]), delivery of whole replacement mitochondria [3], or possibly protofection of an entire replacement mitochondrial genome, although that latter item seems to have stumbled to one of those funding-related halts so common in research [4]. The others are presently pursued, though by no means as aggressively as the potential benefits merit. Everyone need mitochondria repair, not just people with inherited or other global genetic defects of the mitochondria. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotopic_expression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotopic_expression [2]: http://archopht.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1814538 http://archopht.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=18145... [3]: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.transproceed.2013.11.133 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.transproceed.2013.11.133 [4]: https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/10/what-happened-to-protofection.php https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/10/what-happened-to...

fasteo 12y ago
That´s also my understanding (and my hope). My bet is on heteroplasmic shift though. This will not actually "cure" the disease, but it will minimize its effects. Specifically, I am closely following the work with mitoTALENs [1]. I have no scientific background, but I find this route easier, both technically and legally. Note the Dr. Aubrey de Grey does not agree with me either [2] :) [1] Mutation specific compounds that will locate and degrade mutant mitochondria. Once degraded, mutant mitochondria will go through the normal cellular housekeeping (apoptosis) http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n9/full/nm.3261.html http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19/n9/full/nm.3261.html [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de_grey_ama/cia21sf http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/28e4v3/aubrey_de...
- exratione 12y ago
  I agree that mitoTALENs look promising, as does some early work on delivering RNA to mitochondria so that the necessary proteins get made even in the absence of genes. That said, I'd have said the same about exploiting mechanisms in leishmania [1] to deliver useful molecules to mitochondria if you'd asked me five years ago. That line of work seems to be in the doldrums too at this point, not much progress to be seen. The most promising sign is the metasign - that we can compare and contrast so many different approaches, and complain because some are not getting more attention. Yet overall things are happening. [1] http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5798/471 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5798/471

QuantumChaos 12y ago

I don't think you have addressed all the concerns in the article. You say >4. This law will allow some kids to have a normal metabolism and a normal life. Nothing more. Nothing less. But the objection of Dr. Morrow is that the procedure may have risks for the children involved (and their children also). Whenever there are risks as well as benefits, there needs to be a discussion as to what is ethical.

fasteo 12y ago
Fair enough, and I agree with Dr. Morrow. My post was more about not confusing "à la carte" kids with mitochondrial DNA manipulation. I have read too many articles that fall into the "blonde, blue eyes and smart kids" category. This law is not about this at all.
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  agreed, I would characterize the procedure as a medical treatment of a disease, so put that way I agree with your point 4.

NIL8 12y ago

Your reply was helpful and insightful. Thanks you.