7 ms·

I know Wells Fargo went full-bore with YUI to the point of creating their own derivative (http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2013/11/08/yuiconf-2013-an-amazing-two-day

by columbo 12y ago

I know Wells Fargo went full-bore with YUI to the point of creating their own derivative (http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2013/11/08/yuiconf-2013-an-amazing-two-days/ http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2013/11/08/yuiconf-2013-an-amazi...) I have to say, enterprise companies like WF really have it tough. With thousands of applications and tens-of-thousands of developers by the time they implement anything it's already been rendered obsolete. At least they didn't go 100% Flex like some other companies

lennel 12y ago
Flex (for better or worse) is still widely used in the financial space. We started using the full google closure stack a couple of years ago and I am happy about that decision everyday.
- bellerocky 12y ago
  I was the person that initiated using the closure library for a team back in 2010. It took ages to release products using it, someone called it the "write more, do less" library and I have regretted the decision ever since, especially when Google came out with Angular which felt like a total slap in the face. Closure Library had half hearted support, and even teams inside Google hated it, which is why Angular probably came about. It felt like a slap because people that bet on Google supporting Closure couldn't just stop using it and start using Angular.
  - DenisM 12y ago
    I feel for you. Same thing happened earlier to me with Google Web Toolkit. Frankly, it soured me on the whole third-party framework idea, seeing how it was impossible to predict which one will retain support over the years.
  - lennel 12y ago
    It depends on what your desired outcome is. Angular is not as solid, not as fast, nor is the whole product as able to be statically analyzed. Longer term maintenance is a pleasure with closure, adding new features a breeze, there are tons of exceptionally well tested components and I cannot stress enough how wonderful deep static analysis and dead code elimination is.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    I don't really think it is fair to compare Angular and Google closure. Angular is basically MVVM for the web, which is awesome because MVVM is awesome. Closure is OOP and "lets move heaven and earth to pretend we are still coding java, but with a weird syntax and lambda functions". It appeals to different needs.
smackfu 12y ago
Isn't this the big advantage of open source and Javascript in general? Even if the creator abandons it, you should have enough development resources to at least maintain status quo.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- columbo 12y ago
  Yeah it's the pro but the con (IMO) is that if you're the last active contributor then it has effectively become a custom framework... which nobody likes to support.
- SiVal 12y ago
  That's not quite right. The advantage is that you (and others) are ALLOWED to do what you want with it (within license limits), but there's no guarantee that you have the resources to make use of that right. Even maintaining the status quo might require more resources than you have as the world evolves and bit rot sets in. It is nice, though, that open source leaves open the possibility that some other party can pick up the ball if the original developers drop it and you can't do it yourself.
- irae 12y ago
  They chose YUI because of the current state of YUI and not because they believe on YUI future features anyway. So Yahoo bug fixes and security patches should be good enough for Wells Fargo for at least 1 year, maybe 3.
Havvy 12y ago
Wells Fargo is big enough that they can spend resources maintaining their fork. Yahoo is no longer working on it, but if somebody else wants to pick it up, they can.
- pyrrhotech 12y ago
  correct, Wells Fargo's market cap is 267 billion, 30% bigger than Facebook. They can pretty much do whatever they want
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Hah, it's funny that the place that handles your money is only worth 30% more than the place you chat with your friends.
    - gohrt 12y ago
      Good. They should be handling my money, not skimming it.
    - cookiecaper 12y ago
      To be fair, Facebook and other recent social IPOs are grossly overvalued.
      - dasil003 12y ago
        Plus their "market"-share is significantly higher than Wells Fargo's.
      - AJ007 12y ago
        To be fair, banks may also be grossly overvalued. Their market valuations are entirely dependent on large government bailouts (although Wells Fargo was certainly in good shape relative to their peers in 08.)
        Alupis 12y ago
JackFr 12y ago
Companies like Wells typically have governance policies and processes which expressly consider the scenario of the the open source 'vendor' ending development. Doesn't make it easier, but presumably someone considered the implications already.
- roel_v 12y ago
  Has anyone reading this ever worked at a place that had something like this (and was more than a paper illusion)? I think you're being overtly optimistic of big companies' IT practices.
  - georgemcbay 12y ago
    IME, many big companies are so change-averse that an event like this is mostly irrelevant to their projects. Even if the external developer who was previously maintaining the library were still maintaining it, the project the big company is shipping would still be like 2-3 major versions behind with no immediate plans to upgrade. Having access to the source and the legal ability to modify it without releasing rights to their own IP is the only issue I've really seen big companies be wary about when it comes to using external libraries, and practically speaking that's probably all they should be worried about.
  - buckbova 12y ago
    Working at a large pharmaceutical, I can assure you this is real. There's a governance structure that rivals the size and budget of a medium sized business' entire software team's.
  - jvagner 12y ago
    He's not being overly optimistic at all. That level of consideration is very real at big companies.
drcode 12y ago
> I have to say, enterprise companies like WF really have it tough. I will code up and play the worlds smallest violin in reactjs today in their honor.
- joshmn 12y ago
  Looking forward to it.
- jgalt212 12y ago
  go easy on the grave dancing. For every framework, there comes a day like this.
  - nine_k 12y ago
    If a framework goes away because a clearly better alternative crops up, it is called progress :-) In 2006, YUI was a step forward compared to the general state of JS frameworks. Today ReactJS is a step forward compared to YUI. When something supplants ReactJS because it's clearly better, I hope, nostalgia aside, few people will protest.
    - IgorPartola 12y ago
      I will bet $5 that you never had the experience where you build on top of a platform or learn to rely on a product and suddenly it gets taken out to pasture. Nostalgia is one thing, but realizing that the application that you are supposed to support and develop for years to come is built on a platform that no longer exists really sucks. It sucks in very real, very pragmatic terms, and for all the progress we can make in the general sense, the specific case of it happening to you is not going to be much easier just because there are now better alternatives and you have an excuse to start from scratch.
      - nawitus 12y ago
        One way to reduce this risk is modularization. If development stops for a single module, it can be replaced quite painlessly compared to rewriting everything because one relied on a monolithic framework.
mildavw 12y ago
I interact with Wells for some backend services. The only interface they expose is an IE-only java applet. Can't say I'm surprised they are lagging the industry by a decade.
tracker1 12y ago
Several years ago I worked on the redesign for the access request tools (ART in jQueryUI, and the backend system using ExtJS), it was a lot of fun, my understanding is ExtJS and YUI share some heritage. That said, I'm not really a fan of the likes of ext, yui or dojo... they're a bit bulky and unwieldy. Today, I've been working more on Bootstrap, React, Flux, Webpack and a few other bits... It's getting nicer all the time. I'm really appreciating JS front to back over other systems (.Net, Java) in terms of actually getting stuff done. Higher testing is pretty much required for a larger JS system, but modularity, npm, git etc go a long way.
yeukhon 12y ago
LinkedIn used to be YUI consumer too until 2-3 years ago they started moving away from it from what I heard. Occasionally I still see YUI tutorials but to be honest, the usage is quite low. At least the number of "mentions" today.

by columbo 12y ago

lennel 12y ago

Flex (for better or worse) is still widely used in the financial space. We started using the full google closure stack a couple of years ago and I am happy about that decision everyday.

bellerocky 12y ago
I was the person that initiated using the closure library for a team back in 2010. It took ages to release products using it, someone called it the "write more, do less" library and I have regretted the decision ever since, especially when Google came out with Angular which felt like a total slap in the face. Closure Library had half hearted support, and even teams inside Google hated it, which is why Angular probably came about. It felt like a slap because people that bet on Google supporting Closure couldn't just stop using it and start using Angular.
- DenisM 12y ago
  I feel for you. Same thing happened earlier to me with Google Web Toolkit. Frankly, it soured me on the whole third-party framework idea, seeing how it was impossible to predict which one will retain support over the years.
- lennel 12y ago
  It depends on what your desired outcome is. Angular is not as solid, not as fast, nor is the whole product as able to be statically analyzed. Longer term maintenance is a pleasure with closure, adding new features a breeze, there are tons of exceptionally well tested components and I cannot stress enough how wonderful deep static analysis and dead code elimination is.
- tomjen3 12y ago
  I don't really think it is fair to compare Angular and Google closure. Angular is basically MVVM for the web, which is awesome because MVVM is awesome. Closure is OOP and "lets move heaven and earth to pretend we are still coding java, but with a weird syntax and lambda functions". It appeals to different needs.

smackfu 12y ago

Isn't this the big advantage of open source and Javascript in general? Even if the creator abandons it, you should have enough development resources to at least maintain status quo.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
columbo 12y ago
Yeah it's the pro but the con (IMO) is that if you're the last active contributor then it has effectively become a custom framework... which nobody likes to support.
SiVal 12y ago
That's not quite right. The advantage is that you (and others) are ALLOWED to do what you want with it (within license limits), but there's no guarantee that you have the resources to make use of that right. Even maintaining the status quo might require more resources than you have as the world evolves and bit rot sets in. It is nice, though, that open source leaves open the possibility that some other party can pick up the ball if the original developers drop it and you can't do it yourself.
irae 12y ago
They chose YUI because of the current state of YUI and not because they believe on YUI future features anyway. So Yahoo bug fixes and security patches should be good enough for Wells Fargo for at least 1 year, maybe 3.

Havvy 12y ago

Wells Fargo is big enough that they can spend resources maintaining their fork. Yahoo is no longer working on it, but if somebody else wants to pick it up, they can.

pyrrhotech 12y ago
correct, Wells Fargo's market cap is 267 billion, 30% bigger than Facebook. They can pretty much do whatever they want
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Hah, it's funny that the place that handles your money is only worth 30% more than the place you chat with your friends.
  - gohrt 12y ago
    Good. They should be handling my money, not skimming it.
  - cookiecaper 12y ago
    To be fair, Facebook and other recent social IPOs are grossly overvalued.
    - dasil003 12y ago
      Plus their "market"-share is significantly higher than Wells Fargo's.
    - AJ007 12y ago
      To be fair, banks may also be grossly overvalued. Their market valuations are entirely dependent on large government bailouts (although Wells Fargo was certainly in good shape relative to their peers in 08.)
      - Alupis 12y ago

JackFr 12y ago

Companies like Wells typically have governance policies and processes which expressly consider the scenario of the the open source 'vendor' ending development. Doesn't make it easier, but presumably someone considered the implications already.

roel_v 12y ago
Has anyone reading this ever worked at a place that had something like this (and was more than a paper illusion)? I think you're being overtly optimistic of big companies' IT practices.
- georgemcbay 12y ago
  IME, many big companies are so change-averse that an event like this is mostly irrelevant to their projects. Even if the external developer who was previously maintaining the library were still maintaining it, the project the big company is shipping would still be like 2-3 major versions behind with no immediate plans to upgrade. Having access to the source and the legal ability to modify it without releasing rights to their own IP is the only issue I've really seen big companies be wary about when it comes to using external libraries, and practically speaking that's probably all they should be worried about.
- buckbova 12y ago
  Working at a large pharmaceutical, I can assure you this is real. There's a governance structure that rivals the size and budget of a medium sized business' entire software team's.
- jvagner 12y ago
  He's not being overly optimistic at all. That level of consideration is very real at big companies.

drcode 12y ago

> I have to say, enterprise companies like WF really have it tough. I will code up and play the worlds smallest violin in reactjs today in their honor.

joshmn 12y ago
Looking forward to it.
jgalt212 12y ago
go easy on the grave dancing. For every framework, there comes a day like this.
- nine_k 12y ago
  If a framework goes away because a clearly better alternative crops up, it is called progress :-) In 2006, YUI was a step forward compared to the general state of JS frameworks. Today ReactJS is a step forward compared to YUI. When something supplants ReactJS because it's clearly better, I hope, nostalgia aside, few people will protest.
  - IgorPartola 12y ago
    I will bet $5 that you never had the experience where you build on top of a platform or learn to rely on a product and suddenly it gets taken out to pasture. Nostalgia is one thing, but realizing that the application that you are supposed to support and develop for years to come is built on a platform that no longer exists really sucks. It sucks in very real, very pragmatic terms, and for all the progress we can make in the general sense, the specific case of it happening to you is not going to be much easier just because there are now better alternatives and you have an excuse to start from scratch.
    - nawitus 12y ago
      One way to reduce this risk is modularization. If development stops for a single module, it can be replaced quite painlessly compared to rewriting everything because one relied on a monolithic framework.

mildavw 12y ago

I interact with Wells for some backend services. The only interface they expose is an IE-only java applet. Can't say I'm surprised they are lagging the industry by a decade.

tracker1 12y ago

Several years ago I worked on the redesign for the access request tools (ART in jQueryUI, and the backend system using ExtJS), it was a lot of fun, my understanding is ExtJS and YUI share some heritage. That said, I'm not really a fan of the likes of ext, yui or dojo... they're a bit bulky and unwieldy. Today, I've been working more on Bootstrap, React, Flux, Webpack and a few other bits... It's getting nicer all the time. I'm really appreciating JS front to back over other systems (.Net, Java) in terms of actually getting stuff done. Higher testing is pretty much required for a larger JS system, but modularity, npm, git etc go a long way.

yeukhon 12y ago

LinkedIn used to be YUI consumer too until 2-3 years ago they started moving away from it from what I heard. Occasionally I still see YUI tutorials but to be honest, the usage is quite low. At least the number of "mentions" today.