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Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

192 points by vincvinc 12y ago

akumen 12y ago
A quick scan on Russian sources shows no confirmation of a large scale invasion taking place. EU rhetoric also quickly changed since this morning and suddenly nobody is using the word "invasion" anymore. Ukraine crying "wolf", again until confirmed.
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  So Russia is known for having a strong propaganda machine. Moreover, Russia openly admitting that it is invading a sovereign nation though it's Kremlin-controlled media outlets (aka almost all media outlets in Russia) would mean trouble. So by Occam's Razor, Putin is telling the media he controls to cover up as much of this as possible. The EU rhetoric is a bit more nuanced, but probably comes from a similar place: if Russia is "invading" Ukraine, EU might be compelled to do something, which would put them in the precarious political and military position: the EU depends on Russian natural gas. Also Russia has nukes which makes opposing them militarily very dangerous (think, starting WWIII dangerous). What evidence do you have that Russia is not in fact invading Ukraine? How can you explain these events? Especially the NATO satellite photos showing Russian military forces across the border?
  - akfanta 12y ago
    > So Russia is known for having a strong propaganda machine. This may shock you, but every country has a strong propaganda machine.
  - akumen 12y ago
    Source bias is always an issue. I think we would all agree that western media doesn't have the best track record when it comes to "proof" either. Same goes for NATO imagery, I recall similar imagery as proof of WMDs in Iraq etc. The images currently being circulated were actually captured on captured on 21-23 August 2014, a week ago during Russian military exercises near the border. The interesting thing is that the artillery positions are inside Russian territory and from what I can tell are pointing the wrong direction. Time will tell. A much larger geopolitical game is being played here and Ukraine is just a pawn to be sacrificed.
    - akumen 12y ago
      Looks like somebody at ZH also knows how to use a compass. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/nato-releases-satellite-imagery-proof-russia-has-invaded-ukraine http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/nato-releases-satel...
  - korzun 12y ago
    Just FYI, IgorPartola is extremely biased. > Ukraine has no propaganda because Ukraine doesn't have much of anything.
- gpvos 12y ago
  Russian media are actually starting to report on this. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597
- danmaz74 12y ago
  The same Russian sources that denied until the very end that there were Russian forces at work in the occupation of Crimea? The same sources that after the fact congratulated and decorated the forces that brialliantly completed the operation?
vincvinc 12y ago
Additionally, Reddit's crowdsourced liveblog has more sources but no map. http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi
- akumen 12y ago
  The map makes no sense. Reddit's feed is infinitely better.
- austenallred 12y ago
  Also try grasswire's crowdsourced feed being curated and fact-checked in real-time. https://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1fece014-714a-4cd9-a9dd-6b980f8e0d47 https://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1fece014-714a-4cd9-a9dd-6b...
peaton 12y ago
Wow, I guess this is what would have happened online during World War II if it happened in modern times. Interesting historic landmark as far as information dissemination during confrontations/wars.
- albemuth 12y ago
  relevant: https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII "@RealTimeWWII is a Twitter feed describing the events of World War II, created by British historian and Oxford grad Alwyn Collinson(...)."
  - IgorPartola 12y ago
    This is pretty cool. It'd be interesting to have a personal service set up around this such that it starts sending messages just to you with "news" updates. I briefly looked at these tweets, but since I didn't follow @RealTimeWWII when it first started, I cannot get the full effect. More broadly, I'd love to see the original coverage for a few historical events. My most recent curiosity is the Watergate scandal. What was on TV at the time? What were people saying? I know what the scandal "was" but I don't know how people reacted to it. I was I could in some fashion reproduce it at the time and see what was going on.
    - delinka 12y ago
      History as a Service. Scheduled notifications about historical events relayed in "virtual real time" from a start date of your choosing. Like a DVR (or Netflix streaming) for history.
  - Raphmedia 12y ago
    Are they basing it on the right dates and wrong year, or is it simply starting from the creating of the page?
    - omh 12y ago
      They're using the right dates. So today's tweets are for August 1942.
CrowderSoup 12y ago
This is a really cool use of technology with a real world application.
ollysb 12y ago
"Occupied Crimea" is a bit debatable isn't it? (seeing as the citizens voted for and celebrated joining with Russia)
- eCa 12y ago
  Apart from the problems of holding referendums while occupied, the referendum itself was not legal under neither Ukrainian nor Crimean law [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Legal_aspects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014...
  - ollysb 12y ago
    Legal or not they do seem to represent the will of the people, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrates-as-region-joins-russia-20143224139630640.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrat...
    - Tuna-Fish 12y ago
      You do realize that when a region is under strict military occupation, those who oppose the occupation cannot exactly openly voice their protests, while those who like it, can. There is a portion of the population who support the annexation of Crimea, but you cannot make any real judgement of it's size by the data we have. (IMHO It's probably >50%).
      - ancap 12y ago
        What evidence is there that during the vote there was "strict military occupation"?
        Tuna-Fish 12y ago
        Among other things, the statements of Crimean Ukrainians and Tatars who have since then fled the place? If you were not part of the Russian majority you very much have to keep your head down.
nokiaman 12y ago
Looks like propaganda. Didn't Ukrainian president Poroshenko say he had hard evidence that the rebels and Russia shot down fligth MH17? Where is it? All gone a bit quiet hasn't it? Every few days he makes new claims but never backs them up with evidence. Any Russian programmers want to comment? How does it feel for Russia to be constantly demonized? Even here on HackerNews, when was the last time there was any positive story involving Russia and technology? Maybe it was Tetris. Yesterday Gazprom announced they are selling oil in Rubles and Yuan, no USD involved in the transaction, a story that might not make HackerNews but worthy of reporting in mainstream news, yet the headlines were that Russian hackers had targeted JP Morgan, and a few days before it was Chinese hackers. Plus ca change, plus c'est la même chose.
- dicroce 12y ago
  So how do they pay you? Rubles?
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - deleted 12y ago
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  - sp332 12y ago
    RMB, to avoid volatility from sanctions against Russia.
    - nokiaman 12y ago
      HKD is pegged to the USD so it works well as a proxy, and if you hold for the long-term, you have the potential upside of exchanging to RMB (stronger than the HKD and trend is up versus the USD) if or when the peg is removed.
- deleted 12y ago
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- xendo 12y ago
alexro 12y ago
Comments on the referenced twitter "sources" are hilarious. Shows just how sarcastic people are of any propaganda these days.
bndr 12y ago
It's hard to analyse this kind of information considering that 100% of information on the site is pro-ukraine and mostly with citation of Ukrainian sources. It may or may not be propaganda, but I don't feel like trusting the site.
- varsketiz 12y ago
  Would you care to argue or provide more information for the Russian side? Please tweet the information at livemap.The problem is that there is not much coming from the russian side - they keep on denying the obvious [1] or blatantly lying [2]. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080 [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213
davidw 12y ago
As evidenced by the flame wars breaking out, this is 'current events' and thus off-topic for this site: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html That it's "using tech to cover them" is a fig-leaf, at best.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Nothing in that link says "current events" are off-topic. Given that this is Hacker News and that the definition of news is information about current events, I'm not sure what you're on about.
  - davidw 12y ago
    Let's see: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      Live mapping an invasion for the first time isn't an "interesting new phenomenon"?
      - davidw 12y ago
        It's been done before: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/raf-operations-room http://www.britishpathe.com/video/raf-operations-room Note also that no one is talking about the map in and of itself because it's not all that interesting and nothing new.
- colinbartlett 12y ago
  The post demonstrates a clever use of web technology to present current information. Comments will be what they will, but regardless, I am pleased to have been shown this little web app on HN.
raldi 12y ago
Super mobile-hostile.
jkaljundi 12y ago
World War III has really started :(
3rd3 12y ago
Am I the only one who feels uneasy about stuff like this? I can't quite figure out why.
- acomjean 12y ago
  Your not the only one. Its a strange feeling that Russia can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences. They seem a little out of control. They annexed Crimea. Nobody did anything. They shot down a civilian airliner (or supplied the missiles/training). No consequences. Send in caravans of "Humanitarian Aid" that Ukraine didn't ask for. Crickets.. Then they just get on their media and deny everything. Its hard to watch it all fall apart.
  - IgorPartola 12y ago
    Think about it this way: the world stability currently depends on Russia and the US having an understanding that if anyone starts nuclear warfare, then Russia and the US will nuke the crap out of them. This is why Isreal, Pakistan, India, etc. have not yet nuked anyone. The direct consequence of this is that the US and Russia can get away with quite a bit: they have the largest nuke stockpiles and the most ability to deliver them. Now, turn this around: "Its a strange feeling that the US can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences. They seem a little out of control. "They invaded Iraq. Nobody did anything. They routinely use drones. No consequences. They set up military bases in Afghanistan. Crickets.. "Then they just get on their media and deny everything. "Its hard to watch it all fall apart." This is how the rest of the world see the US. Note, that I am not using this as an excuse for anything the US or Russia is doing. Just pointing out that to people who do not live in Russia or the US, both countries seem "out of control".
  - alexro 12y ago
    It works the same for US : can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences
  - cmdkeen 12y ago
    It's worth bearing this kind of thing in mind the next time there is an NSA thread and the "police state" type posts start up. Western governments do bad things but the rule of law does apply, democratic elections do occur and there are consequences. Iraq was a serious mistake but it has coloured the USA and UK's involvement with the world, and their internal politics for years - very much unlike Russia and Chechnya.
IgorPartola 12y ago
I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody wants to start WWIII, but this has to be disturbing developments for countries like Poland, Romania, etc. Also, I wonder if Putin is really willing to continue this invasion at the cost of being ex-communicated by the US and parts of Western Europe? I suppose he is currently banking that most of Western Europe depends on his natural gas, so they cannot completely shut him out.
- JacobEdelman 12y ago
  I am disappointed by the fact that while their are several comments supporting Russia almost all of them have been down voted a ton. You shouldn't down vote people just because you disagree with them.
  - bpodgursky 12y ago
    If it's an issue which is remotely controversial and they are making useful contributions, I agree. If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it... I'm sorry, but you're not contributing to the discussion but instead are just spreading misinformation and your comment is not useful. Not all opinions are equally valid.
    - venomsnake 12y ago
      > If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it... All of US circa 2003? No downvotes back then.
  - IgorPartola 12y ago
    What bpodgursky said. Also, note how these downvoted comments typically include no sources, and are usually a one sentence attack on Ukraine, or a one sentence defense of Russia's actions.
pond_lilly 12y ago
stop this madness already. I know this is HN, but common! There is something morbid in posting stuff like that and obsessing over it, especially when it is a blatant lie. Reddit has been overtaken by mass hysteria over Ukraine for months now and it is spilling to HN as well.
shaurz 12y ago
Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0
danmaz74 12y ago
A more reliable map, but not live, is updated daily on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2esqrq/ukraine_map_827_rebels_take_novoazovsk/ http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2esqrq/uk... This live map is most often too optimistic for the Ukrainian side, but it's still useful to follow the general trends.
lelifer 12y ago
so how do i know that the site is not propaganda itself. I mean if you look at how easily US could pull off the iraq thing by spoon-feeding propaganda to its citizens you shouldn't really trust anything political anymore without doing a ton of research beforehand. Also im Russian, and even if russia did take over Ukraine it would not be a big deal for Ukrainians since they are mostly Russians anyway, please downvote me i care so much about reddit.
korzun 12y ago
First, it's extremely hard to get real 'facts' if you are in US right now. I can't find a single reliable source. I'm neither Ukrainian or Russian but I will provide a small insight into this conflict. Obviously if you have relations to either party you will be supporting that side. The media is a total joke. Anything they say even if somewhat true will be discredited in some way or another by either side. Situation here is complex, if you guys were following this the newly elected officials (after the coup) are not officially recognized thought out the whole Ukraine. Think about it this way, there are republicans and democrats. Whitehouse get's stormed and Obama is thrown out and replaced with let's say Bush. Bush is backing republican states (keep in mind, it's a bit less civil there), republican states start to fight democrats within those states and assault democrats within their own states. Democrats start to fight back and shit storm ensues. Now if you flip that a bit, democrats in this case are part of another (powerful) country. That country is sending reinforcements to protect it's people against government that they do not recognize due to coup. Both sides think they are right. In MY opinion, I think it's valid for cities that are completely Russian to refuse to recognize new president appointed by people who organized a coup. Especially when there could be ties to a nationalist party within Ukraine. My 2 cents.
SEJeff 12y ago
I wish it would loop the Imperial Death March starwars theme via a flash app or something. That would make this perfect.
austenallred 12y ago
Note: This particular map has been less than completely accurate in the past, and is often carrying a significant pro-Ukrainian slant, including being blatantly false on a couple of really important occasions. It's not a particularly bad one, but make sure to compare it with http://militarymap.info http://militarymap.info and http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker (Russian)
daveslash 12y ago
Small script to make the map iterate day-by-day for a given month. Need to update it to move onto the next month. a = setInterval(function() { var nextDay = 1 + parseInt($("[name='datac']").val()); $("[name='datac']").val(nextDay) $("#loadmore").click(); } , 3000)
vvpan 12y ago
My personal concern in all this is that violence stops. Whether it's Russian or NATO intervention I think it's good and will eventually diminish the number of civilian casualties. Also, a lot of the sources are not good at all.
jl6 12y ago
This is what information war looks like. Disinformation, propaganda, FUD, distortion, lies, astroturfing, bias, plausible deniability and false flag ops - from ALL sides. How are we as information professionals supposed to deal with this? I have no way to form an opinion on this conflict as everything I read has been filtered through a media (social media included) which has either no means or no motivation to prove the trustworthiness of their message.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  "ALL sides", "no way to form an opinion", "information war". Pay attention, this is how astroturfing to spread FUD looks like. The person is not trying to increase understanding, he or she is trying to promote apathy.
  - jl6 12y ago
    No, I'm appealing for help in trying to understand the situation. You seem to have a strong opinion on the matter. How have you come to that in such a hostile information environment? Edit: on second reading, your comment seems tantamount to accusing me of being "one of them". Everyone seems to have picked a side and is part of the fight. Where's the verifiably objective and neutral commentary?

192 points by vincvinc 12y ago

A quick scan on Russian sources shows no confirmation of a large scale invasion taking place. EU rhetoric also quickly changed since this morning and suddenly nobody is using the word "invasion" anymore. Ukraine crying "wolf", again until confirmed.

IgorPartola 12y ago
So Russia is known for having a strong propaganda machine. Moreover, Russia openly admitting that it is invading a sovereign nation though it's Kremlin-controlled media outlets (aka almost all media outlets in Russia) would mean trouble. So by Occam's Razor, Putin is telling the media he controls to cover up as much of this as possible. The EU rhetoric is a bit more nuanced, but probably comes from a similar place: if Russia is "invading" Ukraine, EU might be compelled to do something, which would put them in the precarious political and military position: the EU depends on Russian natural gas. Also Russia has nukes which makes opposing them militarily very dangerous (think, starting WWIII dangerous). What evidence do you have that Russia is not in fact invading Ukraine? How can you explain these events? Especially the NATO satellite photos showing Russian military forces across the border?
- akfanta 12y ago
  > So Russia is known for having a strong propaganda machine. This may shock you, but every country has a strong propaganda machine.
- akumen 12y ago
  Source bias is always an issue. I think we would all agree that western media doesn't have the best track record when it comes to "proof" either. Same goes for NATO imagery, I recall similar imagery as proof of WMDs in Iraq etc. The images currently being circulated were actually captured on captured on 21-23 August 2014, a week ago during Russian military exercises near the border. The interesting thing is that the artillery positions are inside Russian territory and from what I can tell are pointing the wrong direction. Time will tell. A much larger geopolitical game is being played here and Ukraine is just a pawn to be sacrificed.
  - akumen 12y ago
    Looks like somebody at ZH also knows how to use a compass. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/nato-releases-satellite-imagery-proof-russia-has-invaded-ukraine http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/nato-releases-satel...
- korzun 12y ago
  Just FYI, IgorPartola is extremely biased. > Ukraine has no propaganda because Ukraine doesn't have much of anything.
gpvos 12y ago
Russian media are actually starting to report on this. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597
danmaz74 12y ago
The same Russian sources that denied until the very end that there were Russian forces at work in the occupation of Crimea? The same sources that after the fact congratulated and decorated the forces that brialliantly completed the operation?

vincvinc 12y ago

Additionally, Reddit's crowdsourced liveblog has more sources but no map. http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi

akumen 12y ago
The map makes no sense. Reddit's feed is infinitely better.
austenallred 12y ago
Also try grasswire's crowdsourced feed being curated and fact-checked in real-time. https://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1fece014-714a-4cd9-a9dd-6b980f8e0d47 https://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1fece014-714a-4cd9-a9dd-6b...

peaton 12y ago

Wow, I guess this is what would have happened online during World War II if it happened in modern times. Interesting historic landmark as far as information dissemination during confrontations/wars.

albemuth 12y ago
relevant: https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII "@RealTimeWWII is a Twitter feed describing the events of World War II, created by British historian and Oxford grad Alwyn Collinson(...)."
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  This is pretty cool. It'd be interesting to have a personal service set up around this such that it starts sending messages just to you with "news" updates. I briefly looked at these tweets, but since I didn't follow @RealTimeWWII when it first started, I cannot get the full effect. More broadly, I'd love to see the original coverage for a few historical events. My most recent curiosity is the Watergate scandal. What was on TV at the time? What were people saying? I know what the scandal "was" but I don't know how people reacted to it. I was I could in some fashion reproduce it at the time and see what was going on.
  - delinka 12y ago
    History as a Service. Scheduled notifications about historical events relayed in "virtual real time" from a start date of your choosing. Like a DVR (or Netflix streaming) for history.
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  Are they basing it on the right dates and wrong year, or is it simply starting from the creating of the page?
  - omh 12y ago
    They're using the right dates. So today's tweets are for August 1942.

CrowderSoup 12y ago

This is a really cool use of technology with a real world application.

ollysb 12y ago

"Occupied Crimea" is a bit debatable isn't it? (seeing as the citizens voted for and celebrated joining with Russia)

eCa 12y ago
Apart from the problems of holding referendums while occupied, the referendum itself was not legal under neither Ukrainian nor Crimean law [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Legal_aspects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014...
- ollysb 12y ago
  Legal or not they do seem to represent the will of the people, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrates-as-region-joins-russia-20143224139630640.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrat...
  - Tuna-Fish 12y ago
    You do realize that when a region is under strict military occupation, those who oppose the occupation cannot exactly openly voice their protests, while those who like it, can. There is a portion of the population who support the annexation of Crimea, but you cannot make any real judgement of it's size by the data we have. (IMHO It's probably >50%).
    - ancap 12y ago
      What evidence is there that during the vote there was "strict military occupation"?
      - Tuna-Fish 12y ago
        Among other things, the statements of Crimean Ukrainians and Tatars who have since then fled the place? If you were not part of the Russian majority you very much have to keep your head down.

nokiaman 12y ago

Looks like propaganda. Didn't Ukrainian president Poroshenko say he had hard evidence that the rebels and Russia shot down fligth MH17? Where is it? All gone a bit quiet hasn't it? Every few days he makes new claims but never backs them up with evidence. Any Russian programmers want to comment? How does it feel for Russia to be constantly demonized? Even here on HackerNews, when was the last time there was any positive story involving Russia and technology? Maybe it was Tetris. Yesterday Gazprom announced they are selling oil in Rubles and Yuan, no USD involved in the transaction, a story that might not make HackerNews but worthy of reporting in mainstream news, yet the headlines were that Russian hackers had targeted JP Morgan, and a few days before it was Chinese hackers. Plus ca change, plus c'est la même chose.

dicroce 12y ago
So how do they pay you? Rubles?
- deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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- sp332 12y ago
  RMB, to avoid volatility from sanctions against Russia.
  - nokiaman 12y ago
    HKD is pegged to the USD so it works well as a proxy, and if you hold for the long-term, you have the potential upside of exchanging to RMB (stronger than the HKD and trend is up versus the USD) if or when the peg is removed.
deleted 12y ago
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xendo 12y ago

alexro 12y ago

Comments on the referenced twitter "sources" are hilarious. Shows just how sarcastic people are of any propaganda these days.

bndr 12y ago

It's hard to analyse this kind of information considering that 100% of information on the site is pro-ukraine and mostly with citation of Ukrainian sources. It may or may not be propaganda, but I don't feel like trusting the site.

varsketiz 12y ago
Would you care to argue or provide more information for the Russian side? Please tweet the information at livemap.The problem is that there is not much coming from the russian side - they keep on denying the obvious [1] or blatantly lying [2]. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080 [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

davidw 12y ago

As evidenced by the flame wars breaking out, this is 'current events' and thus off-topic for this site: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html That it's "using tech to cover them" is a fig-leaf, at best.

ceejayoz 12y ago
Nothing in that link says "current events" are off-topic. Given that this is Hacker News and that the definition of news is information about current events, I'm not sure what you're on about.
- davidw 12y ago
  Let's see: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Live mapping an invasion for the first time isn't an "interesting new phenomenon"?
    - davidw 12y ago
      It's been done before: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/raf-operations-room http://www.britishpathe.com/video/raf-operations-room Note also that no one is talking about the map in and of itself because it's not all that interesting and nothing new.
colinbartlett 12y ago
The post demonstrates a clever use of web technology to present current information. Comments will be what they will, but regardless, I am pleased to have been shown this little web app on HN.

raldi 12y ago

Super mobile-hostile.

jkaljundi 12y ago

World War III has really started :(

3rd3 12y ago

Am I the only one who feels uneasy about stuff like this? I can't quite figure out why.

acomjean 12y ago
Your not the only one. Its a strange feeling that Russia can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences. They seem a little out of control. They annexed Crimea. Nobody did anything. They shot down a civilian airliner (or supplied the missiles/training). No consequences. Send in caravans of "Humanitarian Aid" that Ukraine didn't ask for. Crickets.. Then they just get on their media and deny everything. Its hard to watch it all fall apart.
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  Think about it this way: the world stability currently depends on Russia and the US having an understanding that if anyone starts nuclear warfare, then Russia and the US will nuke the crap out of them. This is why Isreal, Pakistan, India, etc. have not yet nuked anyone. The direct consequence of this is that the US and Russia can get away with quite a bit: they have the largest nuke stockpiles and the most ability to deliver them. Now, turn this around: "Its a strange feeling that the US can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences. They seem a little out of control. "They invaded Iraq. Nobody did anything. They routinely use drones. No consequences. They set up military bases in Afghanistan. Crickets.. "Then they just get on their media and deny everything. "Its hard to watch it all fall apart." This is how the rest of the world see the US. Note, that I am not using this as an excuse for anything the US or Russia is doing. Just pointing out that to people who do not live in Russia or the US, both countries seem "out of control".
- alexro 12y ago
  It works the same for US : can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences
- cmdkeen 12y ago
  It's worth bearing this kind of thing in mind the next time there is an NSA thread and the "police state" type posts start up. Western governments do bad things but the rule of law does apply, democratic elections do occur and there are consequences. Iraq was a serious mistake but it has coloured the USA and UK's involvement with the world, and their internal politics for years - very much unlike Russia and Chechnya.

IgorPartola 12y ago

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody wants to start WWIII, but this has to be disturbing developments for countries like Poland, Romania, etc. Also, I wonder if Putin is really willing to continue this invasion at the cost of being ex-communicated by the US and parts of Western Europe? I suppose he is currently banking that most of Western Europe depends on his natural gas, so they cannot completely shut him out.

JacobEdelman 12y ago
I am disappointed by the fact that while their are several comments supporting Russia almost all of them have been down voted a ton. You shouldn't down vote people just because you disagree with them.
- bpodgursky 12y ago
  If it's an issue which is remotely controversial and they are making useful contributions, I agree. If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it... I'm sorry, but you're not contributing to the discussion but instead are just spreading misinformation and your comment is not useful. Not all opinions are equally valid.
  - venomsnake 12y ago
    > If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it... All of US circa 2003? No downvotes back then.
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  What bpodgursky said. Also, note how these downvoted comments typically include no sources, and are usually a one sentence attack on Ukraine, or a one sentence defense of Russia's actions.

pond_lilly 12y ago

stop this madness already. I know this is HN, but common! There is something morbid in posting stuff like that and obsessing over it, especially when it is a blatant lie. Reddit has been overtaken by mass hysteria over Ukraine for months now and it is spilling to HN as well.

shaurz 12y ago

Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0

danmaz74 12y ago

A more reliable map, but not live, is updated daily on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2esqrq/ukraine_map_827_rebels_take_novoazovsk/ http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2esqrq/uk... This live map is most often too optimistic for the Ukrainian side, but it's still useful to follow the general trends.

lelifer 12y ago

so how do i know that the site is not propaganda itself. I mean if you look at how easily US could pull off the iraq thing by spoon-feeding propaganda to its citizens you shouldn't really trust anything political anymore without doing a ton of research beforehand. Also im Russian, and even if russia did take over Ukraine it would not be a big deal for Ukrainians since they are mostly Russians anyway, please downvote me i care so much about reddit.

korzun 12y ago

First, it's extremely hard to get real 'facts' if you are in US right now. I can't find a single reliable source. I'm neither Ukrainian or Russian but I will provide a small insight into this conflict. Obviously if you have relations to either party you will be supporting that side. The media is a total joke. Anything they say even if somewhat true will be discredited in some way or another by either side. Situation here is complex, if you guys were following this the newly elected officials (after the coup) are not officially recognized thought out the whole Ukraine. Think about it this way, there are republicans and democrats. Whitehouse get's stormed and Obama is thrown out and replaced with let's say Bush. Bush is backing republican states (keep in mind, it's a bit less civil there), republican states start to fight democrats within those states and assault democrats within their own states. Democrats start to fight back and shit storm ensues. Now if you flip that a bit, democrats in this case are part of another (powerful) country. That country is sending reinforcements to protect it's people against government that they do not recognize due to coup. Both sides think they are right. In MY opinion, I think it's valid for cities that are completely Russian to refuse to recognize new president appointed by people who organized a coup. Especially when there could be ties to a nationalist party within Ukraine. My 2 cents.

SEJeff 12y ago

I wish it would loop the Imperial Death March starwars theme via a flash app or something. That would make this perfect.

austenallred 12y ago

Note: This particular map has been less than completely accurate in the past, and is often carrying a significant pro-Ukrainian slant, including being blatantly false on a couple of really important occasions. It's not a particularly bad one, but make sure to compare it with http://militarymap.info http://militarymap.info and http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker (Russian)

daveslash 12y ago

Small script to make the map iterate day-by-day for a given month. Need to update it to move onto the next month. a = setInterval(function() { var nextDay = 1 + parseInt($("[name='datac']").val()); $("[name='datac']").val(nextDay) $("#loadmore").click(); } , 3000)

vvpan 12y ago

My personal concern in all this is that violence stops. Whether it's Russian or NATO intervention I think it's good and will eventually diminish the number of civilian casualties. Also, a lot of the sources are not good at all.

jl6 12y ago

This is what information war looks like. Disinformation, propaganda, FUD, distortion, lies, astroturfing, bias, plausible deniability and false flag ops - from ALL sides. How are we as information professionals supposed to deal with this? I have no way to form an opinion on this conflict as everything I read has been filtered through a media (social media included) which has either no means or no motivation to prove the trustworthiness of their message.

vdaniuk 12y ago
"ALL sides", "no way to form an opinion", "information war". Pay attention, this is how astroturfing to spread FUD looks like. The person is not trying to increase understanding, he or she is trying to promote apathy.
- jl6 12y ago
  No, I'm appealing for help in trying to understand the situation. You seem to have a strong opinion on the matter. How have you come to that in such a hostile information environment? Edit: on second reading, your comment seems tantamount to accusing me of being "one of them". Everyone seems to have picked a side and is part of the fight. Where's the verifiably objective and neutral commentary?