6 ms·

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to

by awjr 12y ago

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to the general public. Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug but is legal because it can be taxed, controlled, and makes money. (http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus...) Governments should also support people that want drugs to come off those drugs and while we're at it, release all prisoners who are specifically in for possession/dealing/trafficking. We really need to give up on this idea of a drug free world. I think we need to look to Portugal for an example of what can be done and also as a starting point for possibly developing a better model http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-d...

eru 12y ago
> Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug [...] Only because of the wide spread of use.
- Xylakant 12y ago
  No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    Alcohol is also one of a very small number of drugs where the physical symptoms of withdrawal can be fatal. That doesn't mean being an alcoholic is worse than being addicted to some other drug (salt withdrawal is invariably fatal, but nobody's out there saying "salt ruins lives"), but it's potentially an argument for alcohol being especially nasty to the body.
  - awildone 12y ago
    And it get's worse. Because your not really tripping but rather fighting poisoning, it effectively cuts the connection to the better part of who you are. If it wasn't for alcohol, a lot of the trouble we see in society simply wouldn't exist.
    - growler 12y ago
      I think there are a few examples of tripping being the result of poisoning. Mushrooms, various cacti... The reason mescalin makes you puke is not because it does a body good.
      - awildone 12y ago
        Some would say the puke part is part of the cleansing, more spiritual than physical. Comparing shrooms to alcohol is very unfair. One is a spiritual plant, one is poison.
        spacemanmatt 12y ago
        Pish. Once in a while, a drink is just the right elixer for a conversation or a mood change with a new friend. It doesn't deserve top billing, and the other drugs don't deserve to be so screwed, but it does have a deserved place in the human experience. Calling it mere 'poison' misses the mark for me.
      - awildone 12y ago
        Can't comment on mescalin though, only tried cb, shrooms and hbw in the trippy part of the spectrum...
  - coldtea 12y ago
    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/people-who-drink-alcohol-outlive-those-who-abstain-study-shows-8995879.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      oh sure, this is about moderate drinkers, not about people abusing alcohol as a drug. The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant as long as you use a pure, unadultered drug (let's forget about croc or battery acid etc). But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad: destroys liver and brain among other things, compared to e.g. opium where the worst side effect is constipation. Overdoses obviously kill in both cases, so let's keep that out of the picture here.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        >But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad Well, you can die with heavy dose of water too. Actually not even that heavy, people have died drinking like 7-10 liters. >The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects.
        thisjepisje 12y ago
        How many people do you know that use excessive amounts of water recreationally, or are addicted to litres and litres of water?
        danielbln 12y ago
        > Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects. Citation? Also, what's 'moderate' use for you? A 'standard drink' equals about 10 grams alcohol, the German institute for addiction (DHS) says* that the threshold dose for risk free consumption is at 20 grams per day, with two days break per week. Above you are risking a plethora of health risks, from mouth cancer, to liver deseases, breast cancer and what have you. There are some benficial health effects, but none of them are 'significant'. *http://www.dhs.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dhs_stellungnahmen/Grenzwerte_Alkoholkonsum_Jul10.pdf http://www.dhs.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dhs_stellungnahm...
ap22213 12y ago
I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking. However, that does bring up the issue of money and alcohol. Restaurants seem to push the stuff pretty heavily, at least in the US. There should at least be some restrictions on the amount of profit that bars / restaurants can make off of it.
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  > Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. There is outrage and 'civil unrest' in some sort surrounding other drugs; the difference is the communities in which it manifests. The war on drugs very disproportionately affects people along lines of race and socioeconomic status[0]. These communities certainly are outraged at how their families and communities are being destroyed (literally) by the prohibition of these drugs and the societal ramifications that go along with the prohibition. The difference is that they're not in a position to voice that outrage as loudly. Remember why prohibition of alcohol was repealed - wealthy taxpayers were mad that their tax bills went up after the passage of the 18th amendment (the government could no longer make revenue off of alcohol taxes). This is exactly why initiatives to legalize marijuana in Colorado (Amendment 64), Washington, and California (Prop 19) have used the language 'tax and regulate'. It's not some crazy new idea - it's literally the same tactic that succeeded in passing the 21st amendment! [0] http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409066350&sr=8-1&keywords=the+new+jim+crow http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindn...
- Crito 12y ago
  > I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking. I've never seen somebody refuse the optional free pickle spear at the sandwich line at work.
  - 12y ago

by awjr 12y ago

eru 12y ago

> Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug [...] Only because of the wide spread of use.

Xylakant 12y ago
No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Alcohol is also one of a very small number of drugs where the physical symptoms of withdrawal can be fatal. That doesn't mean being an alcoholic is worse than being addicted to some other drug (salt withdrawal is invariably fatal, but nobody's out there saying "salt ruins lives"), but it's potentially an argument for alcohol being especially nasty to the body.
- awildone 12y ago
  And it get's worse. Because your not really tripping but rather fighting poisoning, it effectively cuts the connection to the better part of who you are. If it wasn't for alcohol, a lot of the trouble we see in society simply wouldn't exist.
  - growler 12y ago
    I think there are a few examples of tripping being the result of poisoning. Mushrooms, various cacti... The reason mescalin makes you puke is not because it does a body good.
    - awildone 12y ago
      Some would say the puke part is part of the cleansing, more spiritual than physical. Comparing shrooms to alcohol is very unfair. One is a spiritual plant, one is poison.
      - spacemanmatt 12y ago
        Pish. Once in a while, a drink is just the right elixer for a conversation or a mood change with a new friend. It doesn't deserve top billing, and the other drugs don't deserve to be so screwed, but it does have a deserved place in the human experience. Calling it mere 'poison' misses the mark for me.
    - awildone 12y ago
      Can't comment on mescalin though, only tried cb, shrooms and hbw in the trippy part of the spectrum...
- coldtea 12y ago
  http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/people-who-drink-alcohol-outlive-those-who-abstain-study-shows-8995879.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    oh sure, this is about moderate drinkers, not about people abusing alcohol as a drug. The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant as long as you use a pure, unadultered drug (let's forget about croc or battery acid etc). But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad: destroys liver and brain among other things, compared to e.g. opium where the worst side effect is constipation. Overdoses obviously kill in both cases, so let's keep that out of the picture here.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad Well, you can die with heavy dose of water too. Actually not even that heavy, people have died drinking like 7-10 liters. >The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects.
      - thisjepisje 12y ago
        How many people do you know that use excessive amounts of water recreationally, or are addicted to litres and litres of water?
      - danielbln 12y ago
        > Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects. Citation? Also, what's 'moderate' use for you? A 'standard drink' equals about 10 grams alcohol, the German institute for addiction (DHS) says* that the threshold dose for risk free consumption is at 20 grams per day, with two days break per week. Above you are risking a plethora of health risks, from mouth cancer, to liver deseases, breast cancer and what have you. There are some benficial health effects, but none of them are 'significant'. *http://www.dhs.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dhs_stellungnahmen/Grenzwerte_Alkoholkonsum_Jul10.pdf http://www.dhs.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dhs_stellungnahm...

ap22213 12y ago

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking. However, that does bring up the issue of money and alcohol. Restaurants seem to push the stuff pretty heavily, at least in the US. There should at least be some restrictions on the amount of profit that bars / restaurants can make off of it.

chimeracoder 12y ago
> Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. There is outrage and 'civil unrest' in some sort surrounding other drugs; the difference is the communities in which it manifests. The war on drugs very disproportionately affects people along lines of race and socioeconomic status[0]. These communities certainly are outraged at how their families and communities are being destroyed (literally) by the prohibition of these drugs and the societal ramifications that go along with the prohibition. The difference is that they're not in a position to voice that outrage as loudly. Remember why prohibition of alcohol was repealed - wealthy taxpayers were mad that their tax bills went up after the passage of the 18th amendment (the government could no longer make revenue off of alcohol taxes). This is exactly why initiatives to legalize marijuana in Colorado (Amendment 64), Washington, and California (Prop 19) have used the language 'tax and regulate'. It's not some crazy new idea - it's literally the same tactic that succeeded in passing the 21st amendment! [0] http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409066350&sr=8-1&keywords=the+new+jim+crow http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindn...
Crito 12y ago
> I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking. I've never seen somebody refuse the optional free pickle spear at the sandwich line at work.
- 12y ago