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Three Congressmen Are Using Red Tape to Bind SpaceX to Earth

154 points by rpm4321 12y ago

coreymgilmore 12y ago
With the current state of politics in the US, I'm not surprised by this. A successful privately owned company being the target of "red-taping" since I doubt SpaceX provides the political donations that a company like Boeing does. This is unfortunate and hopefully it goes no where. Sounds like Elon needs to get the Tesla lawyers who have reversed states' legislation against selling cars directly to start working on this too.
- Tloewald 12y ago
  Oddly enough, I tried out Greenhouse -- http://allaregreen.us/ http://allaregreen.us/ -- (the plugin that gives you donor information for congress persons) on the four different people cited, and big donations from defense contractors and aerospace only figured for one of them, so it's not quite as simple as I thought. Or perhaps the money is more cleverly disguised.
  - pmorici 12y ago
    I wouldn't put much stock in that information. It is really easy to just put down anything on the donation form. You need to actually go look at the names of the people who made the donations and see what they are connected to.
  - scj 12y ago
    From the article: "As one might expect, government officials who have such contractors in their own districts and states are unhappy with this." If many local jobs are being threatened, a politician would want to be seen attempting to protect them. No bribes required.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    Doesn't count PAC money. The top of the corp rarely gets attributed for the money the move around. The FEC accounting only applies to worker class.
- jasonlotito 12y ago
  These congressmen are representatives of their districts, so I'm not sure why we are surprised when the congressmen speak up for the people that are in their districts.
jameskilton 12y ago
Ah yes, Republican congressmen trying to harm a private company because it's doing better than a government funded program. Pot, kettle, yada yada.
- rrmm 12y ago
  They are the big government they claim to want to eliminate.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    They always have been. It's only "big government" when it benefits their mates and future board positions.
    - masklinn 12y ago
      There's a missing negation unless I'm misreading your comment: it's only big government when it doesn't benefit their mates.
      - tormeh 12y ago
        or "their" can refer to democrats.
      - XorNot 12y ago
        They only complain about regulations when someone they know, or want to be on the board with, wants that regulation to go away. It's exactly the right size government when it happens to be a massive handout to those same people, or buys off a social group who literally do want to control what you do in the bedroom, for example. The point is, its all misdirection anyway - the correct question about governments is always to focus on issues and results. When someone has to declare ideology as a motivator, and can't imagine step-wise plans or trials, then they should be ignored.
- terrence_giggy 12y ago
  Ah yes, an obviously left leaning author accuses several of is local representatives of wrong-doing. Lets take it as cannon and use the opportunity to pile on an bash them Republicans. After all, it is the severity of the accusation that matters, right?
kelvin0 12y ago
I wonder how many rolls of tape would be needed to hold a launching rocket to it`s pad? Not taking into account the heat which would probably melt it?
- vixin 12y ago
  its pad.
- Crito 12y ago
  A lot. Going with the Saturn V, since information about it is widely available: 4 hold-down clamps that put out 350 metric tons each. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch13-4.html http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch13-4.html Best tape I can find in 20 seconds of googling: "Super Strength II: super heavy duty tape with 400 lbs of tensile strength (meets OSHA 29 CFR Part 1926.502)" http://www.reefindustries.com/barricade-tape.php http://www.reefindustries.com/barricade-tape.php That's nearly 2000 layers of tape for each hold-down clamp, or 8000 total. How many meters of tape that is depends on how much tape is needed per layer per clamp. Lets say two meters, so we're talking 16km of this heavy-duty tape. That super-heavy duty stuff comes in 300' rolls, so you would need 175 rolls of it to hold down a Saturn V right at launch. That is just right at launch though, when the fuel inside the rocket is doing most of the "hold the rocket down" work. As the rocket burns more and more fuel, you will need more and more tape to hold it down. A smaller rocket like the F9 will require less tape.
  - kelvin0 12y ago
    Excellent, well this means SpaceX is safe from govt. red-tape since the Reps will be too lazy to implement this. Thanks!
nomercy400 12y ago
The good part about launching into space is that there are many places you can launch into space, including outside of the US. Can't they just move to another part of the world, or across some borders?
- yock 12y ago
  It's probably trivial for congress to classify your rocket technology as a weapons system and forbid export.
  - jbigelow76 12y ago
    But it wouldn't be export if you're not an American company. SpaceX could move south of the border and become SpaceMeX, problem solved :)
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
  - Crito 12y ago
    That has already been done. It's called ITAR: http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-IV http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-IV
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  Except SpaceX is a defacto government program considering its funded by the COTS program (and other pork/favors) and its main customer is going to be the USG. Also, the corruption works in SpaceX's favor. You have to be some blind free market type to believe that Musk isn't using the system for his benefit via the typical favor/donation system that rules Washington. Why would he leave the bed of gold we spin for him? Space contractor in the US is a sweet gig, and Musk knows it. He's not going anywhere, especially over a over-politicized minor bump in the road such as this. This blog posting sells ad impressions and gives people their 2 minutes hate against $other_political_party, but to guys like Musk its meaningless and if it does have a cost, its washed up in the cost of doing business.
byerley 12y ago
I can't understand this author's spin. The memo - http://coffman.house.gov/sites/coffman.house.gov/files/documents/07%2015%2014%20SpaceX%20Concerns%20%282%29.pdf http://coffman.house.gov/sites/coffman.house.gov/files/docum... is a request to NASA for un-redacted information about the SpaceX failures. They're not asking for an investigation or delays (as far as I can tell), they just want disclosure. How is making failure information public going to slow down progress?
- tericho 12y ago
  Is it just me or is that memo cut off after 1 page? Kinda hard to see what they're asking for.
  - winter_blue 12y ago
    The memo is two pages long, and the request for un-redacted information is present on the second page. byerley is right though -- I don't see anything asking for an investigation or some other show-stopper.
- jameskilton 12y ago
  This is the status quo for politics these days. Our elected officials are masters of the switcheroo. They ask innocent, logical sounding questions to pry for information they will then use to destroy something they don't like. You can't ask "what's wrong with this request" anymore. You have to ask "why would they be asking for this? What do they get out of this information?"
  - byerley 12y ago
    Elected officials can certainly be two-faced. However, I think criticizing their decisions while everyone is still in the information gathering stages is taking vigilance way too far. Politicians are people too and you have to give them a fair shake at doing their job before you can lament the result.
- HillRat 12y ago
  It's a first salvo. Coffman and Brooks both serve on HASC and on the HASC Oversight and Investigations subcommittee; Brooks is vice-chair of the House science committee's Space and Aeronautics subcommittee. Whatever NASA provides is going to be grist for investigations into SpaceX and possibly legislation crippling it (and potentially other small competitors) in favor of the big aerospace employers in the reps' districts. In particular, this is probably an attempt to force NASA into selecting Boeing's CST-100 as the agency's new orbital vehicle. Boeing's option certainly has fewer operational "anomalies" than SpaceX's Dragon, because it hasn't even made it to orbit yet -- but don't expect politically-motivated Congressmen to admit that Boeing is a higher risk than a proven, if upstart, solution.
stealthlogic 12y ago
Typical.
snowwrestler 12y ago
This stuff happens all the time to major government contractors, of which SpaceX is one. It's par for the course; call it a standard cost of doing business with the government. IMO it is an example of why the U.S. system of government has lasted so long: it guides parochial self-interest and competition into constructive pathways. In this case, members of Congress want to protect their district's pet contractors, but the actual act is to request public disclosure of data. Which, in the long run, is a good thing!

154 points by rpm4321 12y ago

With the current state of politics in the US, I'm not surprised by this. A successful privately owned company being the target of "red-taping" since I doubt SpaceX provides the political donations that a company like Boeing does. This is unfortunate and hopefully it goes no where. Sounds like Elon needs to get the Tesla lawyers who have reversed states' legislation against selling cars directly to start working on this too.

Tloewald 12y ago
Oddly enough, I tried out Greenhouse -- http://allaregreen.us/ http://allaregreen.us/ -- (the plugin that gives you donor information for congress persons) on the four different people cited, and big donations from defense contractors and aerospace only figured for one of them, so it's not quite as simple as I thought. Or perhaps the money is more cleverly disguised.
- pmorici 12y ago
  I wouldn't put much stock in that information. It is really easy to just put down anything on the donation form. You need to actually go look at the names of the people who made the donations and see what they are connected to.
- scj 12y ago
  From the article: "As one might expect, government officials who have such contractors in their own districts and states are unhappy with this." If many local jobs are being threatened, a politician would want to be seen attempting to protect them. No bribes required.
- sitkack 12y ago
  Doesn't count PAC money. The top of the corp rarely gets attributed for the money the move around. The FEC accounting only applies to worker class.
jasonlotito 12y ago
These congressmen are representatives of their districts, so I'm not sure why we are surprised when the congressmen speak up for the people that are in their districts.

jameskilton 12y ago

Ah yes, Republican congressmen trying to harm a private company because it's doing better than a government funded program. Pot, kettle, yada yada.

rrmm 12y ago
They are the big government they claim to want to eliminate.
- XorNot 12y ago
  They always have been. It's only "big government" when it benefits their mates and future board positions.
  - masklinn 12y ago
    There's a missing negation unless I'm misreading your comment: it's only big government when it doesn't benefit their mates.
    - tormeh 12y ago
      or "their" can refer to democrats.
    - XorNot 12y ago
      They only complain about regulations when someone they know, or want to be on the board with, wants that regulation to go away. It's exactly the right size government when it happens to be a massive handout to those same people, or buys off a social group who literally do want to control what you do in the bedroom, for example. The point is, its all misdirection anyway - the correct question about governments is always to focus on issues and results. When someone has to declare ideology as a motivator, and can't imagine step-wise plans or trials, then they should be ignored.
terrence_giggy 12y ago
Ah yes, an obviously left leaning author accuses several of is local representatives of wrong-doing. Lets take it as cannon and use the opportunity to pile on an bash them Republicans. After all, it is the severity of the accusation that matters, right?

kelvin0 12y ago

I wonder how many rolls of tape would be needed to hold a launching rocket to it`s pad? Not taking into account the heat which would probably melt it?

vixin 12y ago
its pad.
Crito 12y ago
A lot. Going with the Saturn V, since information about it is widely available: 4 hold-down clamps that put out 350 metric tons each. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch13-4.html http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-4204/ch13-4.html Best tape I can find in 20 seconds of googling: "Super Strength II: super heavy duty tape with 400 lbs of tensile strength (meets OSHA 29 CFR Part 1926.502)" http://www.reefindustries.com/barricade-tape.php http://www.reefindustries.com/barricade-tape.php That's nearly 2000 layers of tape for each hold-down clamp, or 8000 total. How many meters of tape that is depends on how much tape is needed per layer per clamp. Lets say two meters, so we're talking 16km of this heavy-duty tape. That super-heavy duty stuff comes in 300' rolls, so you would need 175 rolls of it to hold down a Saturn V right at launch. That is just right at launch though, when the fuel inside the rocket is doing most of the "hold the rocket down" work. As the rocket burns more and more fuel, you will need more and more tape to hold it down. A smaller rocket like the F9 will require less tape.
- kelvin0 12y ago
  Excellent, well this means SpaceX is safe from govt. red-tape since the Reps will be too lazy to implement this. Thanks!

nomercy400 12y ago

The good part about launching into space is that there are many places you can launch into space, including outside of the US. Can't they just move to another part of the world, or across some borders?

yock 12y ago
It's probably trivial for congress to classify your rocket technology as a weapons system and forbid export.
- jbigelow76 12y ago
  But it wouldn't be export if you're not an American company. SpaceX could move south of the border and become SpaceMeX, problem solved :)
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
- Crito 12y ago
  That has already been done. It's called ITAR: http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-IV http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-IV
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Except SpaceX is a defacto government program considering its funded by the COTS program (and other pork/favors) and its main customer is going to be the USG. Also, the corruption works in SpaceX's favor. You have to be some blind free market type to believe that Musk isn't using the system for his benefit via the typical favor/donation system that rules Washington. Why would he leave the bed of gold we spin for him? Space contractor in the US is a sweet gig, and Musk knows it. He's not going anywhere, especially over a over-politicized minor bump in the road such as this. This blog posting sells ad impressions and gives people their 2 minutes hate against $other_political_party, but to guys like Musk its meaningless and if it does have a cost, its washed up in the cost of doing business.

byerley 12y ago

I can't understand this author's spin. The memo - http://coffman.house.gov/sites/coffman.house.gov/files/documents/07%2015%2014%20SpaceX%20Concerns%20%282%29.pdf http://coffman.house.gov/sites/coffman.house.gov/files/docum... is a request to NASA for un-redacted information about the SpaceX failures. They're not asking for an investigation or delays (as far as I can tell), they just want disclosure. How is making failure information public going to slow down progress?

tericho 12y ago
Is it just me or is that memo cut off after 1 page? Kinda hard to see what they're asking for.
- winter_blue 12y ago
  The memo is two pages long, and the request for un-redacted information is present on the second page. byerley is right though -- I don't see anything asking for an investigation or some other show-stopper.
jameskilton 12y ago
This is the status quo for politics these days. Our elected officials are masters of the switcheroo. They ask innocent, logical sounding questions to pry for information they will then use to destroy something they don't like. You can't ask "what's wrong with this request" anymore. You have to ask "why would they be asking for this? What do they get out of this information?"
- byerley 12y ago
  Elected officials can certainly be two-faced. However, I think criticizing their decisions while everyone is still in the information gathering stages is taking vigilance way too far. Politicians are people too and you have to give them a fair shake at doing their job before you can lament the result.
HillRat 12y ago
It's a first salvo. Coffman and Brooks both serve on HASC and on the HASC Oversight and Investigations subcommittee; Brooks is vice-chair of the House science committee's Space and Aeronautics subcommittee. Whatever NASA provides is going to be grist for investigations into SpaceX and possibly legislation crippling it (and potentially other small competitors) in favor of the big aerospace employers in the reps' districts. In particular, this is probably an attempt to force NASA into selecting Boeing's CST-100 as the agency's new orbital vehicle. Boeing's option certainly has fewer operational "anomalies" than SpaceX's Dragon, because it hasn't even made it to orbit yet -- but don't expect politically-motivated Congressmen to admit that Boeing is a higher risk than a proven, if upstart, solution.

stealthlogic 12y ago

Typical.

snowwrestler 12y ago

This stuff happens all the time to major government contractors, of which SpaceX is one. It's par for the course; call it a standard cost of doing business with the government. IMO it is an example of why the U.S. system of government has lasted so long: it guides parochial self-interest and competition into constructive pathways. In this case, members of Congress want to protect their district's pet contractors, but the actual act is to request public disclosure of data. Which, in the long run, is a good thing!