5 ms·

It's Time for a Four-Day Workweek

70 points by gkuan 12y ago

cheepin 12y ago
"some have speculated that the Jews adopted this after their exile in Babylon in the sixth century B.C." Citation needed. The Torah would clearly put the 7 day week as one of the earliest doctrines, far before the Babylonian exile.
- blahedo 12y ago
  Fully agreed that citation is needed here, but I thought the Torah was first written down during the exiles (though, to be sure, based on oral tradition that was much older); the given "some have speculated" would be more or less consistent with that.
- dsr_ 12y ago
  Unless you believe that the Torah was handed down intact on Mount Sinai, it was written between 600 and 400 BCE. Anything before that is, er, hearsay.
sreya 12y ago
I would gladly move to 10 hour days for four days. Hell I'd do 12 hours for 3 days
- jqm 12y ago
  Just as long as you don't try to do 40 hours in one day... (heck, why not... we have multi-tasking now....) But really, I'll believe 4 day work weeks when I see them. They will always find something wasteful for people to do to eat up the hours even if we do become on the whole more efficient. Besides, all the insurance people and real estate people will still hang out chatting for 60+ hours and then tell everyone they work 60 hours a week. (My girlfriend is a realtor...that's how I know what they do. She doesn't understand why she can't just call to chat anytime while I'm at work because... I'm working! And no, I probably can't "work" 60 hours a week for an extended period of time. But given the choice, I'd prefer to have to work 60 hours a week rather than have to chat 60 hours a week.... so I say they deserve their money!)
svec 12y ago
<shameless plug for working at iRobot> It's not quite all the way to a 4-day workweek, but we've got something close at iRobot: At iRobot we have "summer hours" during (surprise!) the summer. Fridays are half days as long as you get in your 40 hours by noon on Friday, which many people do. I love it! Want to work here (Boston, MA or Pasadena, CA)? Check out our available jobs (we're hiring software engineers!!!) (http://www.irobot.com/us/Company/Careers.aspx http://www.irobot.com/us/Company/Careers.aspx) and then email me: csvec@irobot.com </shameless plug>
- minikites 12y ago
  That's not anything close to a four day week, that's a five day week with long hours on four out of five days.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- iLoch 12y ago
  Sounds like you're working 44 hours for 40 hours of pay? (For example: you could have all your hours done by Thursday night, but you still have to come in for a half day on Friday, correct?) If they're going to make you work 40 hours anyway, why the extra half day? Seems fine to me to set the required work time to 40 hours, but that should mean that you can leave once you've got 40 hours in.
  - cesarbs 12y ago
    "Fridays are half days as long as you get in your 40 hours by noon on Friday" means they're working 40 hours over 4.5 days, instead of 5.
    - iLoch 12y ago
      Right, but what if I work 10 hours a day from Monday to Thursday? I've put in my 40 hours but still have to wait until Friday afternoon. In that case they'd probably get paid 44 hours, but it's also possible that they're only getting paid for the 40 hours - which is why I ask if the half day is really necessary.
iLoch 12y ago
I recently moved from a Mon-Fri 9-5 to Tue-Fri 9-5; I've definitely noticed an improvement in my morale, and possibly an improvement in my productivity, though that's harder to measure. I don't necessarily think replacing the day missed with more work each day is a brilliant solution though, as productivity tends to drop off dramatically over the day anyway. If we want to work less, it might be best to actually work less.
nazgulnarsil 12y ago
I think I prefer 5 six hour days.
- andyjdavis 12y ago
  Provided you don't have to physically travel to a work location more days but shorter does seem to be more productive, for me at least. I could work a few long days a week but I get a lot more done working a few hours a day instead. I'll often work 6 or even 7 days a week but those work days are only 1-4 hours long. In particular 1-2 hours spent working on saturday or sunday usually results in a extremely disproportionate increase in overall productivity.
- bernardlunn 12y ago
  I agree. I prefer 6 days but shorter days - plus 2 week holidays where one switches off totally and sabbaticals once a decade or so. Its a recipe for creativity, not just grinding it out.
mv 12y ago
My current schedule is 12 days on 13 hour shifts followed by two days off. Resident physicians get screwed and only recently were 'limited' to 80 hour work weeks. I would love even a five day work week. I have noticed my moral has dropped immensely on this schedule. It is definitely hard to balance work with social life, exercise, and sleep.
- sjy 12y ago
  Why are working hours in the medical industry so crazy? It doesn't seem to be in anyone's interest.
  - shellum 12y ago
    My brother in law just finished a residency and we asked him the same question. Apparently more mistakes are made in hand offs between doctors than from tired doctors.
    - barry-cotter 12y ago
      I am too lazy to check since I'm on my phone but I believe in the UK between less fatigue and fewer handoff errors it's a wash except for surgeons where there's a clear loss, as in under the new system more patients die.
  - dsr_ 12y ago
    Tradition, hazing, survivorship bias, and the fact that the people who are in charge of the system are only starting to think of quality-control statistics as something that could apply to the practice of general medicine.
  - tghw 12y ago
    There have been hospitals that have cut resident hours to more reasonable schedules. They measured the number of errors, hoping to see a drop. Unfortunately, the number of errors stayed the same. The problem is that shorter hours increases the number of patient handoffs between doctors. Most residents cap at 12 patients. So, as you're trying to get out the door to go home, eat some food and sleep, you have to brief the incoming doctor on 10-12 hours of care for 12 patients. Either you have to go fast and skip some stuff, or you'll be there forever.
jrs235 12y ago
I think the best 4 day work week would be a rolling day off and probably not coincide with co workers ( allows someone to be in every business day). First week you get Monday off, second week Tuesday off, etc. if you need a day that everyone needs to be in perhaps you exclude a day, perhaps Wednesdays, from the rolling off day.
- jrs235 12y ago
  Your coworker would get first work Tuesday off, second week Thursday off ( if excluding Wednesdays for all hands in day), etc...
- jrs235 12y ago
  This assumes you also always get Saturday and Sunday off.
gooble_flop 12y ago
Weeks were originally based around market day: you'd work your fields for 6 days then go into town on the 7th to trade, socialise, etc. Basing weeks around a day of rest was a Jewish innovation. There are examples of places using 8 or 10 day weeks (e.g. the Roman Empire, revolutionary France, the USSR) but everyone keeps returning to a 7 day week.
- collyw 12y ago
  Yes, but we have technology available that wasn't in the days of Roman Empire, or even the USSR. Politicians keep telling us we have had growth, yet everyone seems to be working more and more just to make ends meets.
patrickpkt 12y ago
I did a year of a 4 day/9 hour schedule (our normal work week is 35 hours). I would do Monday-Thursday one week, followed by a Tuesday-Friday, to make alternate weekends 4 days long. For the last year, due to a head injury, I've worked 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, in 2.5 hour chunks. While my hours are shorter, I've found it really refreshing to have a 3 hour midday break. Lunch is never rushed, I have time to watch a tv show or run an errand or two, and I generally come back to work in the afternoon very refreshed. On top of that, it's easier to focus in - 2.5 hour blocks don't leave time for distractedness. I liked the 4/10 schedule, but I don't think it fulfilled my hopes for it. My intention was to use my off days for my own projects, as I was starting to burn out and feel uninspired. What I found was that it was difficult to shift gears for just a day or two, especially after working long hours the previous several days. For the most part, the off days would just be when I would run errands. Instead of taking a half day to take the dogs to the vet, I would use my free day. So, it was nice enough, but hard to fully utilize well. Of course, I think the real trick is finding a job that lets you have a good work life balance. My work year, if I were full time, is only ~1500 hours. That, more than anything, is what I'll be looking for in any future jobs.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
rabino 12y ago
Some tech companies here (in Argentina) are implementing implementing 9-2 or 3 on fridays. It's a nice touch.
paupino_masano 12y ago
I thought this was an interesting comment buried down below: about Utah adopting a 4/10hr work schedule to cut operating costs during the recession. http://le.utah.gov/audit/10_10arpt.pdf http://le.utah.gov/audit/10_10arpt.pdf
squozzer 12y ago
Let's say, as an experiment, we decide to work four days a week. Which day do we take off? Just a hunch but the top two candidates most likely are Monday and Friday. Friday's claims: 1) "TGIF" now has some teeth. 2) Friendly gesture towards our Muslim countrymen. Hey, we took the rest of Saturday off to help get along with our Jewish friends. 3) We can still hate Mondays. Monday's claims: 1) A lot of work for artists churning out anti-Tuesday work that oddly resembles the old anti-Monday work. Aw, screw that - I have a better idea. 365 divided by 7 = 52.14whatever but 365 divided by 5 = 73. So if the 4 day workweek seems unworkable, let's instead eliminate Saturday and Sunday. MWahHahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
programminggeek 12y ago
At my job we've been doing 4x10 schedule and it works pretty well for the most part, but there are downsides. A 3 day weekend is great, but less great if your spouse/family is not around that extra day. Also, the extra day tends to get filled up with chores or other stuff. It becomes everyone else's "catch all" kind of day. I have noticed that 10 hour days tend to grind on a team and it can make a bad situation potentially worse than it actually is as people get stressed out or tired during a compressd time period. I think a better solution doesn't lie in rearranging the 40 hour week. I think it lies in a 20 hour week. Work two days, "rest" 5 days. Work becomes the exception, not the rule. We absolutely right now have enough productivity at our fingertips that the average person could work 20 hour weeks and probably get about the same amount of stuff done, just with less time spent "working" while on twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. throughout the day. There would be less time spent emailing and frankly, I'm not sure people would notice the difference in output, but they'd probably notice the difference in their life. For most people, the problem is pay and it's not because there isn't enough money to make this work, it's because people attach salaries to the notion of the 40 hour week and how things traditionally are run. For many businesses, a 20 hour week would be plenty if people accepted this reality and worked around it. The fact is, all the gains in productivity from automation and technology for the most part have gone to the bottom line profits, not to the employees pocketbooks. If we are going to start negotiating for better work life balance and working conditions, don't just shuffle hours around, eliminate the nonessential busy work that fills the day and work towards a dramatic improvement, not just an incremental change.
- aye 12y ago
  Yeah, 4x10 sounds awful -- in fact, working 10 hour days in general sounds awful. I doubt that advocates of a shorter work week have "work the same number of hours, but in a different configuration." The problem is that even without enough work to go around, people in the U.S. believe that we should be working at minimum 40 hours a week. I think it's going to be really difficult to get people to change that. I can imagine a lot of people staying late or working at home on the weekends to "catch up" with a shortened week. Maybe it would be easier to start a "9-3" campaign than a "Monday-Thursday" campaign.
frogpelt 12y ago
What if we just stopped caring about weeks and employers required 20 days of work per month? If you wanted an extra long vacation, you could work 40 days in a row and take 20 days off. This, in addition, to the 13-month, 28-day calendar would be interesting time innovations to me. I also find 100-second minutes and 10-hour days intriguing. But we would have to redefine the second.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  This is highly dependent on jobs that don't require "coverage". Lots of jobs do not fit into that category but could still benefit from a reduced work week.
mchusma 12y ago
The evidence here is pretty scant, and some of that is for good reason. Different jobs/tasks are more prone to benefit from reduced workweeks, others are not. Different individuals work at different paces.
axilmar 12y ago
We don't have two days of rest. On Saturday we need to go shopping for the rest of the week in the morning, in the afternoon we must prepare the family for the night out, and in the evening we must take care of the family as they are out. On Sunday we have to clean the house, doing all the cleaning tasks we couldn't do on the previous days, and watch the ball games with the relatives in the evening.
- collyw 12y ago
  This. I struggle without kids to get myself organised. Trying to do a side project in my spare time (what spare time?). Its difficult.
matell 12y ago
I am team leader of a software development team and thanks to tolerance of my boss I have a 4-day work week for past 20 months (Monday - Thursday, 8 working hours per day on average). The rest of my team (and also rest of the company employees) is working 5 days. Compared to 5 work days per week I feel my work is much more focused, better organized and prioritized. there is no space to spend 1 hour a day reading hacker news. The team does not seem to suffer from the fact I am not there at Friday. they have the option to call me via phone if they get completely blocked in some issue (such a call occurs maybe once in two months). I try proactively to avoid being the blocker any time by replacing email communication by issue tracking and shared intranet boards and documents as much as possible.

70 points by gkuan 12y ago

"some have speculated that the Jews adopted this after their exile in Babylon in the sixth century B.C." Citation needed. The Torah would clearly put the 7 day week as one of the earliest doctrines, far before the Babylonian exile.

blahedo 12y ago
Fully agreed that citation is needed here, but I thought the Torah was first written down during the exiles (though, to be sure, based on oral tradition that was much older); the given "some have speculated" would be more or less consistent with that.
dsr_ 12y ago
Unless you believe that the Torah was handed down intact on Mount Sinai, it was written between 600 and 400 BCE. Anything before that is, er, hearsay.

sreya 12y ago

I would gladly move to 10 hour days for four days. Hell I'd do 12 hours for 3 days

jqm 12y ago
Just as long as you don't try to do 40 hours in one day... (heck, why not... we have multi-tasking now....) But really, I'll believe 4 day work weeks when I see them. They will always find something wasteful for people to do to eat up the hours even if we do become on the whole more efficient. Besides, all the insurance people and real estate people will still hang out chatting for 60+ hours and then tell everyone they work 60 hours a week. (My girlfriend is a realtor...that's how I know what they do. She doesn't understand why she can't just call to chat anytime while I'm at work because... I'm working! And no, I probably can't "work" 60 hours a week for an extended period of time. But given the choice, I'd prefer to have to work 60 hours a week rather than have to chat 60 hours a week.... so I say they deserve their money!)

svec 12y ago

<shameless plug for working at iRobot> It's not quite all the way to a 4-day workweek, but we've got something close at iRobot: At iRobot we have "summer hours" during (surprise!) the summer. Fridays are half days as long as you get in your 40 hours by noon on Friday, which many people do. I love it! Want to work here (Boston, MA or Pasadena, CA)? Check out our available jobs (we're hiring software engineers!!!) (http://www.irobot.com/us/Company/Careers.aspx http://www.irobot.com/us/Company/Careers.aspx) and then email me: csvec@irobot.com </shameless plug>

minikites 12y ago
That's not anything close to a four day week, that's a five day week with long hours on four out of five days.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
iLoch 12y ago
Sounds like you're working 44 hours for 40 hours of pay? (For example: you could have all your hours done by Thursday night, but you still have to come in for a half day on Friday, correct?) If they're going to make you work 40 hours anyway, why the extra half day? Seems fine to me to set the required work time to 40 hours, but that should mean that you can leave once you've got 40 hours in.
- cesarbs 12y ago
  "Fridays are half days as long as you get in your 40 hours by noon on Friday" means they're working 40 hours over 4.5 days, instead of 5.
  - iLoch 12y ago
    Right, but what if I work 10 hours a day from Monday to Thursday? I've put in my 40 hours but still have to wait until Friday afternoon. In that case they'd probably get paid 44 hours, but it's also possible that they're only getting paid for the 40 hours - which is why I ask if the half day is really necessary.

iLoch 12y ago

I recently moved from a Mon-Fri 9-5 to Tue-Fri 9-5; I've definitely noticed an improvement in my morale, and possibly an improvement in my productivity, though that's harder to measure. I don't necessarily think replacing the day missed with more work each day is a brilliant solution though, as productivity tends to drop off dramatically over the day anyway. If we want to work less, it might be best to actually work less.

nazgulnarsil 12y ago

I think I prefer 5 six hour days.

andyjdavis 12y ago
Provided you don't have to physically travel to a work location more days but shorter does seem to be more productive, for me at least. I could work a few long days a week but I get a lot more done working a few hours a day instead. I'll often work 6 or even 7 days a week but those work days are only 1-4 hours long. In particular 1-2 hours spent working on saturday or sunday usually results in a extremely disproportionate increase in overall productivity.
bernardlunn 12y ago
I agree. I prefer 6 days but shorter days - plus 2 week holidays where one switches off totally and sabbaticals once a decade or so. Its a recipe for creativity, not just grinding it out.

mv 12y ago

My current schedule is 12 days on 13 hour shifts followed by two days off. Resident physicians get screwed and only recently were 'limited' to 80 hour work weeks. I would love even a five day work week. I have noticed my moral has dropped immensely on this schedule. It is definitely hard to balance work with social life, exercise, and sleep.

sjy 12y ago
Why are working hours in the medical industry so crazy? It doesn't seem to be in anyone's interest.
- shellum 12y ago
  My brother in law just finished a residency and we asked him the same question. Apparently more mistakes are made in hand offs between doctors than from tired doctors.
  - barry-cotter 12y ago
    I am too lazy to check since I'm on my phone but I believe in the UK between less fatigue and fewer handoff errors it's a wash except for surgeons where there's a clear loss, as in under the new system more patients die.
- dsr_ 12y ago
  Tradition, hazing, survivorship bias, and the fact that the people who are in charge of the system are only starting to think of quality-control statistics as something that could apply to the practice of general medicine.
- tghw 12y ago
  There have been hospitals that have cut resident hours to more reasonable schedules. They measured the number of errors, hoping to see a drop. Unfortunately, the number of errors stayed the same. The problem is that shorter hours increases the number of patient handoffs between doctors. Most residents cap at 12 patients. So, as you're trying to get out the door to go home, eat some food and sleep, you have to brief the incoming doctor on 10-12 hours of care for 12 patients. Either you have to go fast and skip some stuff, or you'll be there forever.

jrs235 12y ago

I think the best 4 day work week would be a rolling day off and probably not coincide with co workers ( allows someone to be in every business day). First week you get Monday off, second week Tuesday off, etc. if you need a day that everyone needs to be in perhaps you exclude a day, perhaps Wednesdays, from the rolling off day.

jrs235 12y ago
Your coworker would get first work Tuesday off, second week Thursday off ( if excluding Wednesdays for all hands in day), etc...
jrs235 12y ago
This assumes you also always get Saturday and Sunday off.

gooble_flop 12y ago

Weeks were originally based around market day: you'd work your fields for 6 days then go into town on the 7th to trade, socialise, etc. Basing weeks around a day of rest was a Jewish innovation. There are examples of places using 8 or 10 day weeks (e.g. the Roman Empire, revolutionary France, the USSR) but everyone keeps returning to a 7 day week.

collyw 12y ago
Yes, but we have technology available that wasn't in the days of Roman Empire, or even the USSR. Politicians keep telling us we have had growth, yet everyone seems to be working more and more just to make ends meets.

patrickpkt 12y ago

I did a year of a 4 day/9 hour schedule (our normal work week is 35 hours). I would do Monday-Thursday one week, followed by a Tuesday-Friday, to make alternate weekends 4 days long. For the last year, due to a head injury, I've worked 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, in 2.5 hour chunks. While my hours are shorter, I've found it really refreshing to have a 3 hour midday break. Lunch is never rushed, I have time to watch a tv show or run an errand or two, and I generally come back to work in the afternoon very refreshed. On top of that, it's easier to focus in - 2.5 hour blocks don't leave time for distractedness. I liked the 4/10 schedule, but I don't think it fulfilled my hopes for it. My intention was to use my off days for my own projects, as I was starting to burn out and feel uninspired. What I found was that it was difficult to shift gears for just a day or two, especially after working long hours the previous several days. For the most part, the off days would just be when I would run errands. Instead of taking a half day to take the dogs to the vet, I would use my free day. So, it was nice enough, but hard to fully utilize well. Of course, I think the real trick is finding a job that lets you have a good work life balance. My work year, if I were full time, is only ~1500 hours. That, more than anything, is what I'll be looking for in any future jobs.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

rabino 12y ago

Some tech companies here (in Argentina) are implementing implementing 9-2 or 3 on fridays. It's a nice touch.

paupino_masano 12y ago

I thought this was an interesting comment buried down below: about Utah adopting a 4/10hr work schedule to cut operating costs during the recession. http://le.utah.gov/audit/10_10arpt.pdf http://le.utah.gov/audit/10_10arpt.pdf

squozzer 12y ago

Let's say, as an experiment, we decide to work four days a week. Which day do we take off? Just a hunch but the top two candidates most likely are Monday and Friday. Friday's claims: 1) "TGIF" now has some teeth. 2) Friendly gesture towards our Muslim countrymen. Hey, we took the rest of Saturday off to help get along with our Jewish friends. 3) We can still hate Mondays. Monday's claims: 1) A lot of work for artists churning out anti-Tuesday work that oddly resembles the old anti-Monday work. Aw, screw that - I have a better idea. 365 divided by 7 = 52.14whatever but 365 divided by 5 = 73. So if the 4 day workweek seems unworkable, let's instead eliminate Saturday and Sunday. MWahHahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

programminggeek 12y ago

At my job we've been doing 4x10 schedule and it works pretty well for the most part, but there are downsides. A 3 day weekend is great, but less great if your spouse/family is not around that extra day. Also, the extra day tends to get filled up with chores or other stuff. It becomes everyone else's "catch all" kind of day. I have noticed that 10 hour days tend to grind on a team and it can make a bad situation potentially worse than it actually is as people get stressed out or tired during a compressd time period. I think a better solution doesn't lie in rearranging the 40 hour week. I think it lies in a 20 hour week. Work two days, "rest" 5 days. Work becomes the exception, not the rule. We absolutely right now have enough productivity at our fingertips that the average person could work 20 hour weeks and probably get about the same amount of stuff done, just with less time spent "working" while on twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. throughout the day. There would be less time spent emailing and frankly, I'm not sure people would notice the difference in output, but they'd probably notice the difference in their life. For most people, the problem is pay and it's not because there isn't enough money to make this work, it's because people attach salaries to the notion of the 40 hour week and how things traditionally are run. For many businesses, a 20 hour week would be plenty if people accepted this reality and worked around it. The fact is, all the gains in productivity from automation and technology for the most part have gone to the bottom line profits, not to the employees pocketbooks. If we are going to start negotiating for better work life balance and working conditions, don't just shuffle hours around, eliminate the nonessential busy work that fills the day and work towards a dramatic improvement, not just an incremental change.

aye 12y ago
Yeah, 4x10 sounds awful -- in fact, working 10 hour days in general sounds awful. I doubt that advocates of a shorter work week have "work the same number of hours, but in a different configuration." The problem is that even without enough work to go around, people in the U.S. believe that we should be working at minimum 40 hours a week. I think it's going to be really difficult to get people to change that. I can imagine a lot of people staying late or working at home on the weekends to "catch up" with a shortened week. Maybe it would be easier to start a "9-3" campaign than a "Monday-Thursday" campaign.

frogpelt 12y ago

What if we just stopped caring about weeks and employers required 20 days of work per month? If you wanted an extra long vacation, you could work 40 days in a row and take 20 days off. This, in addition, to the 13-month, 28-day calendar would be interesting time innovations to me. I also find 100-second minutes and 10-hour days intriguing. But we would have to redefine the second.

kasey_junk 12y ago
This is highly dependent on jobs that don't require "coverage". Lots of jobs do not fit into that category but could still benefit from a reduced work week.

mchusma 12y ago

The evidence here is pretty scant, and some of that is for good reason. Different jobs/tasks are more prone to benefit from reduced workweeks, others are not. Different individuals work at different paces.

axilmar 12y ago

We don't have two days of rest. On Saturday we need to go shopping for the rest of the week in the morning, in the afternoon we must prepare the family for the night out, and in the evening we must take care of the family as they are out. On Sunday we have to clean the house, doing all the cleaning tasks we couldn't do on the previous days, and watch the ball games with the relatives in the evening.

collyw 12y ago
This. I struggle without kids to get myself organised. Trying to do a side project in my spare time (what spare time?). Its difficult.

matell 12y ago

I am team leader of a software development team and thanks to tolerance of my boss I have a 4-day work week for past 20 months (Monday - Thursday, 8 working hours per day on average). The rest of my team (and also rest of the company employees) is working 5 days. Compared to 5 work days per week I feel my work is much more focused, better organized and prioritized. there is no space to spend 1 hour a day reading hacker news. The team does not seem to suffer from the fact I am not there at Friday. they have the option to call me via phone if they get completely blocked in some issue (such a call occurs maybe once in two months). I try proactively to avoid being the blocker any time by replacing email communication by issue tracking and shared intranet boards and documents as much as possible.