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I buy organic for three reasons: 1) Despite what Norman Borlaug said, the vegetables taste better. I don't really care why. Maybe it has nothing to do with the

I buy organic for three reasons: 1) Despite what Norman Borlaug said, the vegetables taste better. I don't really care why. Maybe it has nothing to do with the fertilizer used, rather that they simply don't ripen the tomatoes with ethylene (the other side of the techno-farming coin). 2) I can afford it. 3) I don't trust Monsanto and their ilk to integrate technology to better feed me. I expect them to rely on technology to improve their bottom line, very likely disadvantaging me in the process -- their goals and incentives are simply not aligned with my own.

timr 17y ago
There's definitely a lot of all-or-nothing thinking going on here, on both sides of the issue. I agree with Borlaug about nitrogen fertilizer; we can't replace it efficiently. But I also have qualms about the over-use of pesticides and fertilizer; air and water pollution; decreasing genetic diversity of industrially farmed food (probably the primary reason why organic produce tastes better, in practice); and dependence upon a global supply chain that requires massive amounts of energy, and that leads to perverse nutritional incentives. Don't get me started on non-vegetable farming.... I think a lot of claims coming from organic fetishists are off the deep end, but they're not entirely wrong. I think a lot of the claims coming from industrial farming fetishists are off the deep end, but they're not entirely wrong. As usual, the world consists of many shades of gray.
rjurney 17y ago
There's nothing wrong with you buying first-world, boutique food. Buy hydroponic vegetables if you want. You are not the problem: there aren't that many of you. The problem is that new age extremism has vilified Borlaug, and the very Green Revolution that makes modern civilization - largely absent from starvation due to inefficient agriculture - possible. This man saved a billion people from starvation and resulting war, won the Nobel Prize, and your average North American has no idea who he is. As a result of the efforts of eco-extremist organizations like Greenpeace, the debate on agriculture is incredibly misinformed, and the very innovations in research that are critical for supporting the increasing global population are vilified by arguments that are entirely religious, rather than scientific. And people don't know that is what they are. As a wealthy westerner, wanting to eat any kind of food - fine by me. Wanting to end research into genetic improvements in crop yields - absolutely condemnable.
- antonovka 17y ago
  There's nothing wrong with you buying first-world, boutique food. Buy hydroponic vegetables if you want. You are not the problem: there aren't that many of you. The problem is that new age extremism has vilified Borlaug ... Isn't calling organic food "first-world, boutique food" and many of its proponents "new age extrem[ists]" bit of hyperbolic vilification in of itself? Commercial farming practices brought both good and bad, and you illustrate both extremes by railing so strongly against the one of them in multiple posts.
  - rjurney 17y ago
    Have you ever grown a traditional garden, vs. an organic one? Try it on any kind of scale over 100 square feet, then tell me about the work involved, and tell me whether 'boutique' fits organic or not :D
    - antonovka 17y ago
      Seeing as I can buy organic produce in large grocery stores for a relatively low price above the baseline, it is, by definition, not a boutique product. You're clearly using boutique as a backhanded pejorative for the production model. The argumentative slight-of-hand is ridiculous. Have you ever grown a traditional garden, vs. an organic one? Try it on any kind of scale over 100 square feet, then tell me about the work involved, and tell me whether 'boutique' fits organic or not :D What were your experiences in attempting this, and where did you find the organic approach led to significant inefficiencies in production? How does your experience compare with that of successful larger organic operations?
      - rjurney 17y ago
        Relatively low? Organic foods are about 150% of the price of non-organic foods. Producing them is much more labor intensive. If you don't use roundup, you have to weed. Boutique: small scale, upper crust.

timr 17y ago

There's definitely a lot of all-or-nothing thinking going on here, on both sides of the issue. I agree with Borlaug about nitrogen fertilizer; we can't replace it efficiently. But I also have qualms about the over-use of pesticides and fertilizer; air and water pollution; decreasing genetic diversity of industrially farmed food (probably the primary reason why organic produce tastes better, in practice); and dependence upon a global supply chain that requires massive amounts of energy, and that leads to perverse nutritional incentives. Don't get me started on non-vegetable farming.... I think a lot of claims coming from organic fetishists are off the deep end, but they're not entirely wrong. I think a lot of the claims coming from industrial farming fetishists are off the deep end, but they're not entirely wrong. As usual, the world consists of many shades of gray.

rjurney 17y ago

There's nothing wrong with you buying first-world, boutique food. Buy hydroponic vegetables if you want. You are not the problem: there aren't that many of you. The problem is that new age extremism has vilified Borlaug, and the very Green Revolution that makes modern civilization - largely absent from starvation due to inefficient agriculture - possible. This man saved a billion people from starvation and resulting war, won the Nobel Prize, and your average North American has no idea who he is. As a result of the efforts of eco-extremist organizations like Greenpeace, the debate on agriculture is incredibly misinformed, and the very innovations in research that are critical for supporting the increasing global population are vilified by arguments that are entirely religious, rather than scientific. And people don't know that is what they are. As a wealthy westerner, wanting to eat any kind of food - fine by me. Wanting to end research into genetic improvements in crop yields - absolutely condemnable.

antonovka 17y ago
There's nothing wrong with you buying first-world, boutique food. Buy hydroponic vegetables if you want. You are not the problem: there aren't that many of you. The problem is that new age extremism has vilified Borlaug ... Isn't calling organic food "first-world, boutique food" and many of its proponents "new age extrem[ists]" bit of hyperbolic vilification in of itself? Commercial farming practices brought both good and bad, and you illustrate both extremes by railing so strongly against the one of them in multiple posts.
- rjurney 17y ago
  Have you ever grown a traditional garden, vs. an organic one? Try it on any kind of scale over 100 square feet, then tell me about the work involved, and tell me whether 'boutique' fits organic or not :D
  - antonovka 17y ago
    Seeing as I can buy organic produce in large grocery stores for a relatively low price above the baseline, it is, by definition, not a boutique product. You're clearly using boutique as a backhanded pejorative for the production model. The argumentative slight-of-hand is ridiculous. Have you ever grown a traditional garden, vs. an organic one? Try it on any kind of scale over 100 square feet, then tell me about the work involved, and tell me whether 'boutique' fits organic or not :D What were your experiences in attempting this, and where did you find the organic approach led to significant inefficiencies in production? How does your experience compare with that of successful larger organic operations?
    - rjurney 17y ago
      Relatively low? Organic foods are about 150% of the price of non-organic foods. Producing them is much more labor intensive. If you don't use roundup, you have to weed. Boutique: small scale, upper crust.