6 ms·

Then why post anything at all?

by mhurron 12y ago

tomp 12y ago
To point out that the stifling of politically-incorrect speech and speech critical of certain topics has a chilling effect.
- CJefferson 12y ago
  How is someone writing an article about a very little discussed topic, compared to the huge number of articles and books about make game developers, stifling?
  - tomp 12y ago
    I wasn't talking about the article being stifling, rather the discussion (as witnessed by the downvotes). Can you list some of the articles/books about specifically male game developers? I haven't seen any yet (though I must admit that I rarely read anything about gaming, except technically oriented articles).
    - recursive 12y ago
      Please don't interpret my downvotes as anything other than a chilling effect on nonsensical comments.
    - CJefferson 12y ago
      There are huge numbers of articles and books which exclusively discuss male game developers, almost every one I've ever read. Did any of them say "This article will only be about men"? No. I'm not clear of your point -- do you wish all articles which only discuss men were labelled as such?
      - tomp 12y ago
        My point exactly; there are no articles saying "this article will only be about men" like this one is about women. Instead, they are saying "this article will be about great games" or "shitty games" or such. That's why I perceive this article as sexist.
        tptacek 12y ago
        That's because you're using a term you don't fully understand. Singling out men and women for gender-neutral praise ("great women in video games" or "great women in badminton" or whatever) isn't sexist. "Sexist" is a normative term. It describes an "ought". Specifically: sexism points out instances where we "ought not" stereotype genders. So it would be sexist to point out that women as a class are inferior or superior at video game development. This post does neither of these things. The term you're flailing around for is "gender biased". "Gender bias" is a descriptive term. It describes an "is". This post "is" about highlighting the achievements of women in the industry. It uses gender as a criteria for inclusion. By itself, gender bias leaves you with too many unknowns to solve the system for a normative result. You can add intent and circumstances (for instance) to solve it for impact. If you think the intent of this article is to suggest that women are superior to men, you'll sound like a crazy person. If you suggest that the circumstances of gender balance in our industry are such that women's achievements are nonnotable, you'll sound like your head is in the sand. But you haven't even done either of those two things; you've got x, y, and z, one equation, and have just decided to leave y and z out and declare the system solved.
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        One example of this I've used in the past is a maternity ward. This is very clearly a health facility with a high level of gender bias. It is not sexist in the least though. I haven't figured out a good example of something that is sexist that doesn't display gender bias though...
        tomp 12y ago
        > Singling out men and women for gender-neutral praise isn't sexist. I agree. However, this isn't a Wikipedia article (which should usually be accompanied by a similar article about the opposite sex). And this article has some issues (IMO) that a Wikipedia article wouldn't have; I won't list them, as I said in my first comment, but @pervycreeper list some of the issues he sees. > The term you're flailing around for is "gender biased". Possibly. However, in my mind "sexism" (along with every other "-ism") is defined as any (irrelevant) discrimination, including positive discrimination. Therefore, I perceive the current "more women in CS" craze (nor the general "more people in CS" trend) as inappropriate/(unfairly) biased/-ism. Of course, we might argue whether it's irrelevant or not; personally, I was brought up in a different society where everyone had to work, my mother was the technical person in the family, and if anything, I was discouraged from spending too much time behind the computer, so I'm convinced that in my country, in my generation, computer skills are the result of means (computers were much more expensive back then) and interest, and not gender at all; if I were brought up in the US, I might have a different view on sexism in CS.
  - lobotryas 12y ago
    You have it the other way around. Tomp is saying that indiscriminately shutting down any criticism of this topic is having a chilling effect on discourse. I agree. Can you imagine anyone daring to post a negative opinion about this article? They'd be verbally assaulted, down voted and shadow-banned in minutes.
byerley 12y ago
Because it's a poorly written article and the media on this issue is in a really silly place right now, but no one sane wants to deal with the hysteria currently associated with mentioning a burger chain so it's hard to construct well-reasoned yet diplomatic criticism.
- SheepSlapper 12y ago
  Yup. I know exactly what he means, but we don't have to explicitly say it and open that whole can of worms. I think it's best to grab some popcorn and watch from the sidelines, not actively participate in the silliness.
- recursive 12y ago
  > hysteria currently associated with mentioning a burger chain The what now?
- A_COMPUTER 12y ago
  I want to take a moment to talk about a woman in video games. She made a really great game, well some people don't call them games, but it was a text adventure game. A quite well made one. Many people didn't realize how effectively you could leverage the medium to make such an emotionally evocative piece of, dare I say it, art. I am of course talking about Emily Short. In the year 2000 or thereabouts, she made a short interactive fiction story called "Galatea." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_%28video_game%29 ) I highly suggest trying it out. I think it's sad how fourteen years later, similar to the devolution of FPS's from Quake to Call of Duty, some new text adventures may have gained a much wider audience and are praised to high heaven but are clearly inferior artistically and in design.
  - makeset 12y ago
    What do you mean by "devolution from Quake to Call of Duty"? I am honestly curious, as I haven't played either (motion sickness; no FPS for me).
    - 12y ago

Then why post anything at all?

by mhurron 12y ago

Then why post anything at all?

tomp 12y ago

To point out that the stifling of politically-incorrect speech and speech critical of certain topics has a chilling effect.

CJefferson 12y ago
How is someone writing an article about a very little discussed topic, compared to the huge number of articles and books about make game developers, stifling?
- tomp 12y ago
  I wasn't talking about the article being stifling, rather the discussion (as witnessed by the downvotes). Can you list some of the articles/books about specifically male game developers? I haven't seen any yet (though I must admit that I rarely read anything about gaming, except technically oriented articles).
  - recursive 12y ago
    Please don't interpret my downvotes as anything other than a chilling effect on nonsensical comments.
  - CJefferson 12y ago
    There are huge numbers of articles and books which exclusively discuss male game developers, almost every one I've ever read. Did any of them say "This article will only be about men"? No. I'm not clear of your point -- do you wish all articles which only discuss men were labelled as such?
    - tomp 12y ago
      My point exactly; there are no articles saying "this article will only be about men" like this one is about women. Instead, they are saying "this article will be about great games" or "shitty games" or such. That's why I perceive this article as sexist.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        That's because you're using a term you don't fully understand. Singling out men and women for gender-neutral praise ("great women in video games" or "great women in badminton" or whatever) isn't sexist. "Sexist" is a normative term. It describes an "ought". Specifically: sexism points out instances where we "ought not" stereotype genders. So it would be sexist to point out that women as a class are inferior or superior at video game development. This post does neither of these things. The term you're flailing around for is "gender biased". "Gender bias" is a descriptive term. It describes an "is". This post "is" about highlighting the achievements of women in the industry. It uses gender as a criteria for inclusion. By itself, gender bias leaves you with too many unknowns to solve the system for a normative result. You can add intent and circumstances (for instance) to solve it for impact. If you think the intent of this article is to suggest that women are superior to men, you'll sound like a crazy person. If you suggest that the circumstances of gender balance in our industry are such that women's achievements are nonnotable, you'll sound like your head is in the sand. But you haven't even done either of those two things; you've got x, y, and z, one equation, and have just decided to leave y and z out and declare the system solved.
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        One example of this I've used in the past is a maternity ward. This is very clearly a health facility with a high level of gender bias. It is not sexist in the least though. I haven't figured out a good example of something that is sexist that doesn't display gender bias though...
        tomp 12y ago
        > Singling out men and women for gender-neutral praise isn't sexist. I agree. However, this isn't a Wikipedia article (which should usually be accompanied by a similar article about the opposite sex). And this article has some issues (IMO) that a Wikipedia article wouldn't have; I won't list them, as I said in my first comment, but @pervycreeper list some of the issues he sees. > The term you're flailing around for is "gender biased". Possibly. However, in my mind "sexism" (along with every other "-ism") is defined as any (irrelevant) discrimination, including positive discrimination. Therefore, I perceive the current "more women in CS" craze (nor the general "more people in CS" trend) as inappropriate/(unfairly) biased/-ism. Of course, we might argue whether it's irrelevant or not; personally, I was brought up in a different society where everyone had to work, my mother was the technical person in the family, and if anything, I was discouraged from spending too much time behind the computer, so I'm convinced that in my country, in my generation, computer skills are the result of means (computers were much more expensive back then) and interest, and not gender at all; if I were brought up in the US, I might have a different view on sexism in CS.
- lobotryas 12y ago
  You have it the other way around. Tomp is saying that indiscriminately shutting down any criticism of this topic is having a chilling effect on discourse. I agree. Can you imagine anyone daring to post a negative opinion about this article? They'd be verbally assaulted, down voted and shadow-banned in minutes.

byerley 12y ago

Because it's a poorly written article and the media on this issue is in a really silly place right now, but no one sane wants to deal with the hysteria currently associated with mentioning a burger chain so it's hard to construct well-reasoned yet diplomatic criticism.

SheepSlapper 12y ago
Yup. I know exactly what he means, but we don't have to explicitly say it and open that whole can of worms. I think it's best to grab some popcorn and watch from the sidelines, not actively participate in the silliness.
recursive 12y ago
> hysteria currently associated with mentioning a burger chain The what now?
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
I want to take a moment to talk about a woman in video games. She made a really great game, well some people don't call them games, but it was a text adventure game. A quite well made one. Many people didn't realize how effectively you could leverage the medium to make such an emotionally evocative piece of, dare I say it, art. I am of course talking about Emily Short. In the year 2000 or thereabouts, she made a short interactive fiction story called "Galatea." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_%28video_game%29 ) I highly suggest trying it out. I think it's sad how fourteen years later, similar to the devolution of FPS's from Quake to Call of Duty, some new text adventures may have gained a much wider audience and are praised to high heaven but are clearly inferior artistically and in design.
- makeset 12y ago
  What do you mean by "devolution from Quake to Call of Duty"? I am honestly curious, as I haven't played either (motion sickness; no FPS for me).
  - 12y ago