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It's interesting you didn't mention family at all. Having kids is a huge commitment of time. I think a good take-away from your rant (plus the consideration of

It's interesting you didn't mention family at all. Having kids is a huge commitment of time. I think a good take-away from your rant (plus the consideration of family) is that we need to be talking more about making time for things. Too often we talk a great deal about what can be done in a few hours a day, but when it comes to making that time, we just say, "If it's important to you, you'll make the time." We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I may not be able to commit even a single hour of dedicated time per day... but I can certainly do something for a few minutes here and there throughout the day which adds up to an hour. How can we make that kind of practice more effective?

nervousvarun 12y ago
Maybe I'm wrong but I interpreted the logic there as: Having kids is definitely an enormous time-sink but that is a choice. Without basic income having a job essentially is not.
- DanielStraight 12y ago
  I guess I took it a different way. My interpretation was basically... once you get to a certain point in your life, the amount of time required for your responsibilities is significantly higher than it was in your youth. Four hours per day is probably achievable for the average college student but incredibly unlikely for the average "adult", for lack of a better term.
zxcvvcxz 12y ago
Gahhh I'm not even that old, don't scare me with this family talk. >We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I may not be able to commit even a single hour of dedicated time per day... but I can certainly do something for a few minutes here and there throughout the day which adds up to an hour. Sounds noble in theory, but in practice there are two problems: 1) you won't be entering a state of flow on your tasks, and 2) you still won't be racking up the volume to get anywhere close to world-class.
- DanielStraight 12y ago
  To point number 1, I tend to think of flow as helpful but not necessary. For some tasks, I'm not really sure flow applies at all. I mean, I'm pretty damn good at tying my shoes. I do it without even thinking about it. I don't think flow was involved in learning that; it's just muscle memory. That's a trivial example of course, but there are other factors than flow which influence the effectiveness of practice. I don't think we should just give up if we can't have flow. To point 2, you're right of course, but we can't be world-class at more than 1 or 2 things anyway. There's still benefit to being pretty good at something. A great phrase I stole from a blog called All Japanese All The Time is "You can have, do or be anything, but you can't have, do and be everything." If you want to commit your whole life to being say... the greatest chainsaw juggler in history, that's probably achievable. But you aren't also going to be fluent in 10 languages, an expert computer programmer, a world-class guitarist, and a grandmaster in chess. I'm alright with only being an expert in things I'm able to devote full-time efforts to. But I'd also like to be pretty good in other stuff. How can I take bits and pieces of time here and there to achieve that? That's what I'd like to see some research (formal or informal) on.
  - bryondowd 12y ago
    I can't speak for others, but for myself, flow is definitely necessary. At least when learning something new or approaching a new problem. In the case of tying your shoes, once you've learned how, you might only spend a moment doing it each time and improving to perfection. But when you first learned as a child, you probably watched someone else do it multiple times, and sat awkwardly fumbling with laces for a (relatively) lengthy amount of time. So if I have a running project in a language I am familiar with, I can spend a few minutes here and there making small improvements and honing my skills, but if I want to learn a new language, or just start a new project in an unfamiliar area, I would need hours set aside to really get into a flow. Scraps of time would never provide enough for things to click. Basically, to more familiar the subject, the less time you need to accomplish something, the more efficiently you can use scattered time. So if you want to really broaden your skillset, it is very difficult when you have a 9-5 with a long commute, a home to maintain, social obligations/family, basic needs, etc. I suppose that might mean that if you want to make efficient use of your scattered time to perfect skills, you would have to focus on your strongest skills when you have minimal time, and improve them to perfection.
marcosdumay 12y ago
> We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I'm not sure it can be done. The best way to maximize the use of small chuncks of time is to join them into rarer big chuncks of time.
- kamaal 12y ago
  Agreed, there is a term in the Perl community for it called 'tuits'. Its called a unit of time where you can get some meaningful work done.
- jtheory 12y ago
  It really depends on what you're learning. If you're learning to juggle, you can absolutely get value out of 25 2-minute chunks during the day. Even more complicated skills -- you may not be able to get things set up on a computer, but if you have a notepad you can take 5 minutes and jot down what you remember of whatever you're trying to learn. Next 5 minutes? Fill in the missing bits, or look up one of them. I have lots of somewhat random skills that I've developed without really dedicating time at all -- like Tuuvan throat singing, or using the NATO phonetic alphabet -- practiced while driving, or in other chunks of time that seem to be already occupied (but are actually just constrained).
jtheory 12y ago
Being involved in raising your kids takes a huge amount of time. BUT - the best way to raise kids is to bring them into your life, not leave your life to do kid things, so that huge block of time is not "lost" to your kids at the cost of your own interests. Obviously not all projects are suitable to sharing with a 4-year-old (learning HTML? probably not), but more than you might think (getting exercise? yes. learning an instrument? yes. learning a foreign language? oh yes. photography, sketching, painting, sculpture? yes. training a seeing-eye dog? yes. house repair kind of things? many of them, yes). Even pretty little kids can learn to work with dangerous tools (they'll be really good about following safety rules when they realize how much you'll let them do as long as they're safe). I see lots of parents who think spending time with their kids involves sitting and watching some loathsome cartoon with them. Honestly, if you're creative about bringing them into your world, instead of you going into the (artificial, invented) childhood world that's been set up for them, it's better for everyone.
- 3pt14159 12y ago
  When I was a small child my dad taught me how to take apart motorcycle engines, while my mom taught me QBASIC and getting around in DOS. You'd be surprised at how much children can learn even at a very young age if you don't make it look harder than it is.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Or even simply because you do it. Not making it look harder than it is is a step up from simply having a lack of fear of getting your hands dirty and trying things. Taking your time, having a notebook and/or a digital camera and you can pretty much take anything apart with a reasonable chance that you can put it back together again. I first got my taste of powertools when I was 12, visited a friend of my moms who didn't bat an eye at letting me use his big electric drill after showing me how dangerous the thing was. Proper respect for tools is half the battle, after that you'll make sure you hold them well instead of half-assed and have the business end pointed where it can do no harm. Two days with that guy did more for my sense of shop safety than a few years cumulative after that. The level of trust both increased my abilities and my responsibility. After that it was back home where none of that was allowed. I let my 11 year old roam the workshop at will after some instruction and I never regretted it. He built me a custom bike a week ago, so I guess that paid off well :)
tbrownaw 12y ago
We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I may not be able to commit even a single hour of dedicated time per day... but I can certainly do something for a few minutes here and there throughout the day which adds up to an hour. How can we make that kind of practice more effective? I saw some article go past a while ago, claiming that intensive practice works far better than the same amount of scattered practice. Maybe use those scattered minutes to keep up on small tasks that would otherwise pile up, so you can set aside a full day every few weeks? Or use those few minutes to relax and do nothing, so you'll be more clear-headed (and presumably perform better) for whatever you do next...
protonfish 12y ago
But being a parent also gives you many new opportunities to learn. My 11-year old loves YouTube so we have been working on making our own videos, experimenting with different cameras and editing. My 3-year-old loves swords so we fight with foam swords (a lot) and watch sword fighting videos (plus Princess Bride and Star Wars.) It's not much now but in 10 years we could have a nice set of fencing equipment and he could be a fighting force to be reckoned with (he already terrifies me.) Other great areas of expertise for family guys are: Cooking, music, coaching sports, outdoorsmanship, and almost anything educational (science projects are my favorite.) Get ideas by listening by to what your kids are interested in. It will help motivate them to learn and it will expose you to cool stuff you would have never thought of on your own.
superuser2 12y ago
Having kids is optional. That's a voluntary sacrifice in a way that having a job is very much not. They don't really belong in the same breath.
- snoman 12y ago
  > Having kids is optional. Choosing not to participate in a fundamental experience of the human condition is no more a choice than choosing not to have a job.
  - crpatino 12y ago
    On the other hand, your job will be very happy to expand and take all "family time" that you have voluntarily chosen to forgo. Going with the flow takes you where the flow takes everybody else. You must first learn what is valuable for you and then plan your life around those values, not the other way around.
  - superuser2 12y ago
    If this is your mindset, then you've made a choice to value having children over other things like free time and disposable income. Perfectly valid. Other people do not share your priorities.
    - halfcat 12y ago
      And only one of these sets of priorities is self-centered.
      - superuser2 12y ago
        The sacrifices you make to raise a child after it's born are certainly altruistic. The decision to have a child in the first place is entirely self-centered (or maybe centered on a partner who is him/herself self-centered.) Humans are not in danger of dying out because we're breeding too slowly; if anything, it'll be the opposite. Which is not to say that it's bad, but (assuming you are actually financially and emotionally capable of raising the kid) no better or worse than choosing differently. Condescension from people with attitudes like yours is why millions of people who know they will be complete failures as parents decide to inflict themselves and their circumstances on innocent children who don't deserve that kind of suffering.

nervousvarun 12y ago

Maybe I'm wrong but I interpreted the logic there as: Having kids is definitely an enormous time-sink but that is a choice. Without basic income having a job essentially is not.

DanielStraight 12y ago
I guess I took it a different way. My interpretation was basically... once you get to a certain point in your life, the amount of time required for your responsibilities is significantly higher than it was in your youth. Four hours per day is probably achievable for the average college student but incredibly unlikely for the average "adult", for lack of a better term.

zxcvvcxz 12y ago

Gahhh I'm not even that old, don't scare me with this family talk. >We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I may not be able to commit even a single hour of dedicated time per day... but I can certainly do something for a few minutes here and there throughout the day which adds up to an hour. Sounds noble in theory, but in practice there are two problems: 1) you won't be entering a state of flow on your tasks, and 2) you still won't be racking up the volume to get anywhere close to world-class.

DanielStraight 12y ago
To point number 1, I tend to think of flow as helpful but not necessary. For some tasks, I'm not really sure flow applies at all. I mean, I'm pretty damn good at tying my shoes. I do it without even thinking about it. I don't think flow was involved in learning that; it's just muscle memory. That's a trivial example of course, but there are other factors than flow which influence the effectiveness of practice. I don't think we should just give up if we can't have flow. To point 2, you're right of course, but we can't be world-class at more than 1 or 2 things anyway. There's still benefit to being pretty good at something. A great phrase I stole from a blog called All Japanese All The Time is "You can have, do or be anything, but you can't have, do and be everything." If you want to commit your whole life to being say... the greatest chainsaw juggler in history, that's probably achievable. But you aren't also going to be fluent in 10 languages, an expert computer programmer, a world-class guitarist, and a grandmaster in chess. I'm alright with only being an expert in things I'm able to devote full-time efforts to. But I'd also like to be pretty good in other stuff. How can I take bits and pieces of time here and there to achieve that? That's what I'd like to see some research (formal or informal) on.
- bryondowd 12y ago
  I can't speak for others, but for myself, flow is definitely necessary. At least when learning something new or approaching a new problem. In the case of tying your shoes, once you've learned how, you might only spend a moment doing it each time and improving to perfection. But when you first learned as a child, you probably watched someone else do it multiple times, and sat awkwardly fumbling with laces for a (relatively) lengthy amount of time. So if I have a running project in a language I am familiar with, I can spend a few minutes here and there making small improvements and honing my skills, but if I want to learn a new language, or just start a new project in an unfamiliar area, I would need hours set aside to really get into a flow. Scraps of time would never provide enough for things to click. Basically, to more familiar the subject, the less time you need to accomplish something, the more efficiently you can use scattered time. So if you want to really broaden your skillset, it is very difficult when you have a 9-5 with a long commute, a home to maintain, social obligations/family, basic needs, etc. I suppose that might mean that if you want to make efficient use of your scattered time to perfect skills, you would have to focus on your strongest skills when you have minimal time, and improve them to perfection.

marcosdumay 12y ago

> We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I'm not sure it can be done. The best way to maximize the use of small chuncks of time is to join them into rarer big chuncks of time.

kamaal 12y ago
Agreed, there is a term in the Perl community for it called 'tuits'. Its called a unit of time where you can get some meaningful work done.
jtheory 12y ago
It really depends on what you're learning. If you're learning to juggle, you can absolutely get value out of 25 2-minute chunks during the day. Even more complicated skills -- you may not be able to get things set up on a computer, but if you have a notepad you can take 5 minutes and jot down what you remember of whatever you're trying to learn. Next 5 minutes? Fill in the missing bits, or look up one of them. I have lots of somewhat random skills that I've developed without really dedicating time at all -- like Tuuvan throat singing, or using the NATO phonetic alphabet -- practiced while driving, or in other chunks of time that seem to be already occupied (but are actually just constrained).

jtheory 12y ago

Being involved in raising your kids takes a huge amount of time. BUT - the best way to raise kids is to bring them into your life, not leave your life to do kid things, so that huge block of time is not "lost" to your kids at the cost of your own interests. Obviously not all projects are suitable to sharing with a 4-year-old (learning HTML? probably not), but more than you might think (getting exercise? yes. learning an instrument? yes. learning a foreign language? oh yes. photography, sketching, painting, sculpture? yes. training a seeing-eye dog? yes. house repair kind of things? many of them, yes). Even pretty little kids can learn to work with dangerous tools (they'll be really good about following safety rules when they realize how much you'll let them do as long as they're safe). I see lots of parents who think spending time with their kids involves sitting and watching some loathsome cartoon with them. Honestly, if you're creative about bringing them into your world, instead of you going into the (artificial, invented) childhood world that's been set up for them, it's better for everyone.

3pt14159 12y ago
When I was a small child my dad taught me how to take apart motorcycle engines, while my mom taught me QBASIC and getting around in DOS. You'd be surprised at how much children can learn even at a very young age if you don't make it look harder than it is.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Or even simply because you do it. Not making it look harder than it is is a step up from simply having a lack of fear of getting your hands dirty and trying things. Taking your time, having a notebook and/or a digital camera and you can pretty much take anything apart with a reasonable chance that you can put it back together again. I first got my taste of powertools when I was 12, visited a friend of my moms who didn't bat an eye at letting me use his big electric drill after showing me how dangerous the thing was. Proper respect for tools is half the battle, after that you'll make sure you hold them well instead of half-assed and have the business end pointed where it can do no harm. Two days with that guy did more for my sense of shop safety than a few years cumulative after that. The level of trust both increased my abilities and my responsibility. After that it was back home where none of that was allowed. I let my 11 year old roam the workshop at will after some instruction and I never regretted it. He built me a custom bike a week ago, so I guess that paid off well :)

tbrownaw 12y ago

We should be looking at ways to maximize the use of very small chunks of time. I may not be able to commit even a single hour of dedicated time per day... but I can certainly do something for a few minutes here and there throughout the day which adds up to an hour. How can we make that kind of practice more effective? I saw some article go past a while ago, claiming that intensive practice works far better than the same amount of scattered practice. Maybe use those scattered minutes to keep up on small tasks that would otherwise pile up, so you can set aside a full day every few weeks? Or use those few minutes to relax and do nothing, so you'll be more clear-headed (and presumably perform better) for whatever you do next...

protonfish 12y ago

But being a parent also gives you many new opportunities to learn. My 11-year old loves YouTube so we have been working on making our own videos, experimenting with different cameras and editing. My 3-year-old loves swords so we fight with foam swords (a lot) and watch sword fighting videos (plus Princess Bride and Star Wars.) It's not much now but in 10 years we could have a nice set of fencing equipment and he could be a fighting force to be reckoned with (he already terrifies me.) Other great areas of expertise for family guys are: Cooking, music, coaching sports, outdoorsmanship, and almost anything educational (science projects are my favorite.) Get ideas by listening by to what your kids are interested in. It will help motivate them to learn and it will expose you to cool stuff you would have never thought of on your own.

superuser2 12y ago

Having kids is optional. That's a voluntary sacrifice in a way that having a job is very much not. They don't really belong in the same breath.

snoman 12y ago
> Having kids is optional. Choosing not to participate in a fundamental experience of the human condition is no more a choice than choosing not to have a job.
- crpatino 12y ago
  On the other hand, your job will be very happy to expand and take all "family time" that you have voluntarily chosen to forgo. Going with the flow takes you where the flow takes everybody else. You must first learn what is valuable for you and then plan your life around those values, not the other way around.
- superuser2 12y ago
  If this is your mindset, then you've made a choice to value having children over other things like free time and disposable income. Perfectly valid. Other people do not share your priorities.
  - halfcat 12y ago
    And only one of these sets of priorities is self-centered.
    - superuser2 12y ago
      The sacrifices you make to raise a child after it's born are certainly altruistic. The decision to have a child in the first place is entirely self-centered (or maybe centered on a partner who is him/herself self-centered.) Humans are not in danger of dying out because we're breeding too slowly; if anything, it'll be the opposite. Which is not to say that it's bad, but (assuming you are actually financially and emotionally capable of raising the kid) no better or worse than choosing differently. Condescension from people with attitudes like yours is why millions of people who know they will be complete failures as parents decide to inflict themselves and their circumstances on innocent children who don't deserve that kind of suffering.