6 ms·

The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

116 points by felixbraun 12y ago

aaron-lebo 12y ago
Berlin has been talked a lot about on HN, but what is the situation like now? I know for awhile it was relatively cheap which was one of the big perks, but housing costs have gone up due to people moving there. What level of experience would you need as an American programmer to move to Berlin and find work? Is it a realistic option? An example of a past thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799
- DasIch 12y ago
  Rent prices have definitely exploded and there are no signs that the upwards trend will stop anytime soon. Nevertheless they are still low compared to cities like London or Paris. Furthermore software developers in Berlin are in very high demand. If you speak English fluently and are a good software developer, getting a job in Berlin should be no problem.
  - rememberlenny 12y ago
    What are examples?
    - DasIch 12y ago
      For rents? There is a map available here: http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/mietkarte-berlin/#2-1650 http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/mietkarte-berlin/#2-1650 It's in German but it should be still fairly easy to understand. Basically average rent for a 72m^2 two bedroom apartment with a new constract is somewhere between 815€ and 1100€ within the SBahn ring. If you are willing to share an apartment (which students generally do in Germany), you can usually get by with 300-400€ per month for rent.
    - probably_wrong 12y ago
      If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg (nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further north) is around €500. For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250 (although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another €100 for a month of unlimited public transport, and you are set.
      - iagooar 12y ago
        If you get 1500€ after taxes, you are being hugely underpaid. 2000€ should be the very least you should expect / demand.
      - uberwach 12y ago
        1500€/month after taxes sounds very low. That is like 27k yearly before taxes (Steuerklasse 1 / no church taxes). Eastern europeans get paid that, because you can lowball them so easily. But as far as I know 40k is a lower bound for cs graduates. For reference I got 56.5k/year base salary at my first job after graduation (small company) and that were 2770€/month after taxes. I even have two friends that earn more than I do. Quit that one after half a year though (russian offshore programmers communication hell). Your rent/food prices are correct though. Small hack: your employer can pay you 44€/month tax-free for the public transport ticket (geldwerter Vorteil Freibetrag).
      - mlent 12y ago
        I'm going to third that. 1500 is definitely very low for a monthly salary as a software developer. A one bedroom in a nice part of Berlin is already more than half of that.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    Software developers are in demand, but the pay is not that great compared to other places (like Munich of Frankfurt). I think the influx of young developers from all over the world might have something to do with that. Also the lack of big companies, so it's mostly startups with limited money supply who employ developers.
    - DasIch 12y ago
      The influx of developers has almost nothing to do with that. Wages in Berlin are in general somewhat lower than in Munich because Berlin is cheaper to live in.
      - facepalm 12y ago
        Hm, does that really make sense? The level of rents should have no bearing on how much a developer is worth to a company? So it would mean the Berlin developers are just bad at negotiation?
- jballanc 12y ago
  Here's a great article on what's required to get a freelance visa in Germany (i.e. you don't actually even need a German company to employ you before you move): https://medium.com/@imcatnoone/how-to-get-your-german-freelance-visa-without-losing-your-sanity-8fa68b39431a https://medium.com/@imcatnoone/how-to-get-your-german-freela... My impression from visiting and friends that live there is that Berlin is undergoing a true technology renaissance at the moment. Personally, if I weren't already living in a perfect location, I'd be looking to move to Berlin.
- odiroot 12y ago
  If you have at least 3-4 years of experience, especially in web or mobile development you're good. I think you'd get `extra points` for being native English speaker. Food is still pretty cheap. You can avoid buying public transit ticket if you don't mind biking to work as well. Money is also usually not the issue while renting the flat. Your credibility is. It's best to start by renting a room in a shared flat, gather the paperwork and then try to find something better. Looking for a flat outside Ringbahn (or just outside) sharply brings prices down. Still, you'd better start learning German right now, it really pays off.
rayiner 12y ago
The various sides of the immigration debate are talking past each other. This article describes a German program that takes high skill people like the architect profiled in the article, while those opposed to immigration are mainly concerned about the large numbers of low-skill people who are not interested in assimilating. The anti-immigrant folks in Britain and France aren't worried about Mr. Pinol. They're worried about the people who want to self-govern according to Sharia law inside a western country. As for the U.S., the key difference with Germany is that our fertility rate is 1.89 (over 2.1 during the boom). Theirs is 1.36 (under 1.4 since 1990).
- arethuza 12y ago
  I think you might want to have a look at the opinion of UKIP - who mostly certainly do want to restrict immigration from EU countries to the UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-ukip-might-say-eu-migration-is-a--twoway-street-8560103.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-uki... NB Personally I regard the right to live and work anywhere in the EU as a wonderful thing.
- freehunter 12y ago
  The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews. Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits." You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too ("And many Germans still call the lack of assimilation among Turkish immigrants a leading national problem."). Your score is bouncing quite heavily, indicating that this is a controversial comment. You're not wrong though. The question I still have after reading the article is, how is Germany dealing with the low-skill immigration (or how effective is their vocation training and welfare system)? Can the US or UK implement similar plans with any success?
  - _delirium 12y ago
    The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation. Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from those who did. The expectation was that they would be temporary workers (no path to citizenship) and eventually go home again. The program was closed in 1973, and the government spent much of the late '70s and '80s trying to encourage them to leave, more than encouraging them to integrate. There are many kids who've grown up 100% in Germany (some grandkids too) who aren't German citizens, and until very recently, were not encouraged to become citizens. (Germany does not have jus soli citizenship, and before a reform in 1999, it was also very difficult for someone not of German descent to naturalize.) The fact that many Turks in Germany come from poor and highly conservative regions of Turkey (generally not Istanbul) doesn't help assimilation, of course. But it also doesn't help that the message for decades was that they aren't German and can't become German. And non-integration is complex, too. When Americans think of unintegrated Mexican immigrants, for example, they think first and foremost of Spanish speakers who can't speak English. But almost all the Turks considered unintegrated do speak German. Some (especially younger generations) don't even speak Turkish fluently (or at all), but only German. Lots of these aren't German-specific problems, though. Since at least the late 19th century, European counties have been based on the ethnic nation-state, and transitioning to some idea that people can change nationalities, or even have more than one (and what that means) is slow and produces opposition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter
mobiplayer 12y ago
I don't have much information about Germany apart from a couple one-week holidays, so I can't really comment on those. On the other hand, I've moved to Britain 2 years ago (with a secured job that I'm just leaving for a new one this week) and in my experience this isn't far away from "The Land of Opportunity". The Greater London area and, to some extent, the M4 corridor is just the paradise for skilled IT workers. Heck, even some towns have almost nil unemployment in general (Reading, I'm looking at you). Seriously, IT companies struggle to find skilled and experienced people and often hire from the rest of the EU just because it is a bigger pool and many >35 y.o. people already speak decent English so, why not?
- Apocryphon 12y ago
  Isn't the London real estate market as pricy as S.F., though?
  - conover 12y ago
    Both are like black holes of real estate crazy orbiting each other...
  - mobiplayer 12y ago
    Yes, it is. Hence my comments about the M4 corridor as well... Worth checking it out (surely not as cheap as Berlin though).
freehunter 12y ago
What is the chance of moving to Germany from the US without a college degree, but rather with five years industry experience and a handful of certifications, plus a good grasp of the German language? Would companies generally go for that, or would German authorities allow that?
- vpdn 12y ago
  As far as I can tell, you need to have a degree. "Who can apply for the EU Blue Card: ...he or she has a German or an accredited foreign or a university degree that is comparable to a German one" http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/ http://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/
  - tormeh 12y ago
    Yeah, but that's just the blue card programme. There are of course more normal ways of immigrating.
  - chhantyal 12y ago
    Degree is required, but not for IT
    - vincentellis 12y ago
      Not really. I'm a senior software engineer, without a CS degree, and had my permit declined two times, for the same company. I was going to be the CTO, btw. Government does not allow people without a degree.
- odiroot 12y ago
  From what I saw companies (or at least startups) don't care much about diplomas. Experience is king in here. It could be a problem with authorities though while getting a work visa. Don't have much data on that as it didn't matter for me (coming from another Schengen country).
- tormeh 12y ago
DasIch 12y ago
It should be noted that Germany is only a land of opportunity, if you intend to study there, have a university-level education or are wealthy enough that your education becomes irrelevant. Furthermore unless you are doing software development, research or something similarly internationally focused you will have a bad time, if you don't speak German.
Mz 12y ago
Excerpt: “Berlin is different than other parts of Germany, and that’s why I think I can make it here,” he said. “It is more relaxed, more accepting than other German cities, and there is no pressure to behave a certain way.” As I understand it, that would be something of a holdover from the cold war days when the culture there was unique due to it's odd political situation.
- krebby 12y ago
  Largely due to the high numbers of young counterculturalists who moved to West Berlin in the 70s and 80s. (Unlike the rest of West Germany West Berlin didn't have conscription.)
  - facepalm 12y ago
    That sounds unlikely, because I think counterculturalists have very strict ideas of how you should be.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - krebby 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscientious_objection_in_the_past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscie...
tokenadult 12y ago
I wonder how many of us commenting on this article read past the headline to take a look at the chart (displayed on the left side of the article text, as I view the article in my browser) titled "More Immigrants Moving to Germany"? That chart shows very plainly, based on OECD statistics, that the United States has a higher absolute number of immigrants each year than Germany, as it has for a long time. The striking thing about the very recent statistics is the recent higher percentage of immigrants in relation to the total population of the country (313.9 million for the United States, 81.89 million for Germany), if I'm reading the chart scale correctly,[1] although other statistics sources continue to report that the United States has a higher rate of immigration.[2] If that trend is sustained, Germany will indeed be noteworthy as a country receiving a large percentage of immigrants year on year, but let's see what happens as the immigration trend interacts with economic growth trends in Germany and in Europe generally.[3] The economy has to stay somewhat healthy in German for immigrants to desire to move there. [1] http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-in-nearly-two-decades/a-17363452 http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra... [3] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-economy-is-broken http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-ec...
- kbar13 12y ago
  there are more immigrants moving to germany <compared to the past>
ExpiredLink 12y ago
"Immigrants" from Italy and Spain? Is the author joking or just ignorant? People within the EU can live and work wherever they want. No "immigration procedure" necessary. Just pack your things and go.
- sapiogram 12y ago
  > immigrant, noun. > 1. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another. I think he knows exactly what "immigrants" means.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
idlewords 12y ago
So immigrant-friendly that sometimes it even comes to you!
- l33tbro 12y ago
  Immigrant friendly, sure. Refugee friendly? Not so much. Berlin is having some massive issues right now with how to handle them (1). Then again, I'm in Australia, so I can't really talk. (1) https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis
avar 12y ago
What's the endgame for propping up population numbers with immigration? Surely the whole system falls apart once the net fertility rate falls below 2. What then? There's good reasons to be immigration-friendly, but dealing with the endgame of the inevitably shrinking population like the Japanese are doing seems like a better long-term strategy than the temporary band-aid solution of solving the problem in the short-term with increased immigration.
mqsiuser 12y ago
An architect (known HERE IN GERMANY to be an over-run study-topic with too little jobs or low pay (until you made it)), a social worker, which is now a dish washer. Highly qualified foreign workers (which we highly need)... even if the article portrayed a university guy... where are we (Germany, Europe, rest of the world) on a global ranking on universities?! (We are well behind Berkley, Stanford and Harvard!) There were only 170 "expert workers" coming in the first year [1]. Also on that link a more in-side discussion (german residents) with much more critical tone (Google translate may help). And I am not against that all the Russians, Rumanians and now also the people from the recent crisis come here because of hard economic problems in their country. But... you know... let's keep the church in the village. People are having less and less offspring because live gets more difficult here (work opportunities only in big cities, living costs (esp. housing FOR A FAMILY), taxes, requirement to travel, etc.). And then arguing "we need people/imigrants"... it's just twisting everything... like a german politician said "I make me my world as I'd like it to be"). There is even the debate here, that "Germany gets rid of itself". And then YC summer "batch" consisting of 68 groups, which received funding (some, then "B", "C", what 1 Mio, then 21 Mio)... wow... there is not much here (sorry, no it's not!) Ignorance is bliss ("ja ja ja, the Americans are just more risk-friendly", end of personal horizont) It's good to be called a "SF based company" "Made in Germany", yeah... cars... and cars and cars (I wouldn't wonder if Google or Apple or a StartUp (Tesla?) would crush these next) Europe, welcome to the old world! But what will it look like in 10 or 20 years? [1] http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article131322266/Im-ersten-Jahr-kamen-nur-170-Fachkraefte.html http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article...
- facepalm 12y ago
  I think the universities are really good. I agree on the cars issue. Makes me really nervous that everything hinges on the car industry and they don't seem to get the future at all.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

116 points by felixbraun 12y ago

Berlin has been talked a lot about on HN, but what is the situation like now? I know for awhile it was relatively cheap which was one of the big perks, but housing costs have gone up due to people moving there. What level of experience would you need as an American programmer to move to Berlin and find work? Is it a realistic option? An example of a past thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799

DasIch 12y ago
Rent prices have definitely exploded and there are no signs that the upwards trend will stop anytime soon. Nevertheless they are still low compared to cities like London or Paris. Furthermore software developers in Berlin are in very high demand. If you speak English fluently and are a good software developer, getting a job in Berlin should be no problem.
- rememberlenny 12y ago
  What are examples?
  - DasIch 12y ago
    For rents? There is a map available here: http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/mietkarte-berlin/#2-1650 http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/mietkarte-berlin/#2-1650 It's in German but it should be still fairly easy to understand. Basically average rent for a 72m^2 two bedroom apartment with a new constract is somewhere between 815€ and 1100€ within the SBahn ring. If you are willing to share an apartment (which students generally do in Germany), you can usually get by with 300-400€ per month for rent.
  - probably_wrong 12y ago
    If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg (nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further north) is around €500. For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250 (although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another €100 for a month of unlimited public transport, and you are set.
    - iagooar 12y ago
      If you get 1500€ after taxes, you are being hugely underpaid. 2000€ should be the very least you should expect / demand.
    - uberwach 12y ago
      1500€/month after taxes sounds very low. That is like 27k yearly before taxes (Steuerklasse 1 / no church taxes). Eastern europeans get paid that, because you can lowball them so easily. But as far as I know 40k is a lower bound for cs graduates. For reference I got 56.5k/year base salary at my first job after graduation (small company) and that were 2770€/month after taxes. I even have two friends that earn more than I do. Quit that one after half a year though (russian offshore programmers communication hell). Your rent/food prices are correct though. Small hack: your employer can pay you 44€/month tax-free for the public transport ticket (geldwerter Vorteil Freibetrag).
    - mlent 12y ago
      I'm going to third that. 1500 is definitely very low for a monthly salary as a software developer. A one bedroom in a nice part of Berlin is already more than half of that.
- facepalm 12y ago
  Software developers are in demand, but the pay is not that great compared to other places (like Munich of Frankfurt). I think the influx of young developers from all over the world might have something to do with that. Also the lack of big companies, so it's mostly startups with limited money supply who employ developers.
  - DasIch 12y ago
    The influx of developers has almost nothing to do with that. Wages in Berlin are in general somewhat lower than in Munich because Berlin is cheaper to live in.
    - facepalm 12y ago
      Hm, does that really make sense? The level of rents should have no bearing on how much a developer is worth to a company? So it would mean the Berlin developers are just bad at negotiation?
jballanc 12y ago
Here's a great article on what's required to get a freelance visa in Germany (i.e. you don't actually even need a German company to employ you before you move): https://medium.com/@imcatnoone/how-to-get-your-german-freelance-visa-without-losing-your-sanity-8fa68b39431a https://medium.com/@imcatnoone/how-to-get-your-german-freela... My impression from visiting and friends that live there is that Berlin is undergoing a true technology renaissance at the moment. Personally, if I weren't already living in a perfect location, I'd be looking to move to Berlin.
odiroot 12y ago
If you have at least 3-4 years of experience, especially in web or mobile development you're good. I think you'd get `extra points` for being native English speaker. Food is still pretty cheap. You can avoid buying public transit ticket if you don't mind biking to work as well. Money is also usually not the issue while renting the flat. Your credibility is. It's best to start by renting a room in a shared flat, gather the paperwork and then try to find something better. Looking for a flat outside Ringbahn (or just outside) sharply brings prices down. Still, you'd better start learning German right now, it really pays off.

rayiner 12y ago

The various sides of the immigration debate are talking past each other. This article describes a German program that takes high skill people like the architect profiled in the article, while those opposed to immigration are mainly concerned about the large numbers of low-skill people who are not interested in assimilating. The anti-immigrant folks in Britain and France aren't worried about Mr. Pinol. They're worried about the people who want to self-govern according to Sharia law inside a western country. As for the U.S., the key difference with Germany is that our fertility rate is 1.89 (over 2.1 during the boom). Theirs is 1.36 (under 1.4 since 1990).

arethuza 12y ago
I think you might want to have a look at the opinion of UKIP - who mostly certainly do want to restrict immigration from EU countries to the UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-ukip-might-say-eu-migration-is-a--twoway-street-8560103.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-uki... NB Personally I regard the right to live and work anywhere in the EU as a wonderful thing.
freehunter 12y ago
The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews. Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits." You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too ("And many Germans still call the lack of assimilation among Turkish immigrants a leading national problem."). Your score is bouncing quite heavily, indicating that this is a controversial comment. You're not wrong though. The question I still have after reading the article is, how is Germany dealing with the low-skill immigration (or how effective is their vocation training and welfare system)? Can the US or UK implement similar plans with any success?
- _delirium 12y ago
  The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation. Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from those who did. The expectation was that they would be temporary workers (no path to citizenship) and eventually go home again. The program was closed in 1973, and the government spent much of the late '70s and '80s trying to encourage them to leave, more than encouraging them to integrate. There are many kids who've grown up 100% in Germany (some grandkids too) who aren't German citizens, and until very recently, were not encouraged to become citizens. (Germany does not have jus soli citizenship, and before a reform in 1999, it was also very difficult for someone not of German descent to naturalize.) The fact that many Turks in Germany come from poor and highly conservative regions of Turkey (generally not Istanbul) doesn't help assimilation, of course. But it also doesn't help that the message for decades was that they aren't German and can't become German. And non-integration is complex, too. When Americans think of unintegrated Mexican immigrants, for example, they think first and foremost of Spanish speakers who can't speak English. But almost all the Turks considered unintegrated do speak German. Some (especially younger generations) don't even speak Turkish fluently (or at all), but only German. Lots of these aren't German-specific problems, though. Since at least the late 19th century, European counties have been based on the ethnic nation-state, and transitioning to some idea that people can change nationalities, or even have more than one (and what that means) is slow and produces opposition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter

mobiplayer 12y ago

I don't have much information about Germany apart from a couple one-week holidays, so I can't really comment on those. On the other hand, I've moved to Britain 2 years ago (with a secured job that I'm just leaving for a new one this week) and in my experience this isn't far away from "The Land of Opportunity". The Greater London area and, to some extent, the M4 corridor is just the paradise for skilled IT workers. Heck, even some towns have almost nil unemployment in general (Reading, I'm looking at you). Seriously, IT companies struggle to find skilled and experienced people and often hire from the rest of the EU just because it is a bigger pool and many >35 y.o. people already speak decent English so, why not?

Apocryphon 12y ago
Isn't the London real estate market as pricy as S.F., though?
- conover 12y ago
  Both are like black holes of real estate crazy orbiting each other...
- mobiplayer 12y ago
  Yes, it is. Hence my comments about the M4 corridor as well... Worth checking it out (surely not as cheap as Berlin though).

freehunter 12y ago

What is the chance of moving to Germany from the US without a college degree, but rather with five years industry experience and a handful of certifications, plus a good grasp of the German language? Would companies generally go for that, or would German authorities allow that?

vpdn 12y ago
As far as I can tell, you need to have a degree. "Who can apply for the EU Blue Card: ...he or she has a German or an accredited foreign or a university degree that is comparable to a German one" http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/ http://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/ http://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/
- tormeh 12y ago
  Yeah, but that's just the blue card programme. There are of course more normal ways of immigrating.
- chhantyal 12y ago
  Degree is required, but not for IT
  - vincentellis 12y ago
    Not really. I'm a senior software engineer, without a CS degree, and had my permit declined two times, for the same company. I was going to be the CTO, btw. Government does not allow people without a degree.
odiroot 12y ago
From what I saw companies (or at least startups) don't care much about diplomas. Experience is king in here. It could be a problem with authorities though while getting a work visa. Don't have much data on that as it didn't matter for me (coming from another Schengen country).
tormeh 12y ago

DasIch 12y ago

It should be noted that Germany is only a land of opportunity, if you intend to study there, have a university-level education or are wealthy enough that your education becomes irrelevant. Furthermore unless you are doing software development, research or something similarly internationally focused you will have a bad time, if you don't speak German.

Mz 12y ago

Excerpt: “Berlin is different than other parts of Germany, and that’s why I think I can make it here,” he said. “It is more relaxed, more accepting than other German cities, and there is no pressure to behave a certain way.” As I understand it, that would be something of a holdover from the cold war days when the culture there was unique due to it's odd political situation.

krebby 12y ago
Largely due to the high numbers of young counterculturalists who moved to West Berlin in the 70s and 80s. (Unlike the rest of West Germany West Berlin didn't have conscription.)
- facepalm 12y ago
  That sounds unlikely, because I think counterculturalists have very strict ideas of how you should be.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - krebby 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscientious_objection_in_the_past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscie...

tokenadult 12y ago

I wonder how many of us commenting on this article read past the headline to take a look at the chart (displayed on the left side of the article text, as I view the article in my browser) titled "More Immigrants Moving to Germany"? That chart shows very plainly, based on OECD statistics, that the United States has a higher absolute number of immigrants each year than Germany, as it has for a long time. The striking thing about the very recent statistics is the recent higher percentage of immigrants in relation to the total population of the country (313.9 million for the United States, 81.89 million for Germany), if I'm reading the chart scale correctly,[1] although other statistics sources continue to report that the United States has a higher rate of immigration.[2] If that trend is sustained, Germany will indeed be noteworthy as a country receiving a large percentage of immigrants year on year, but let's see what happens as the immigration trend interacts with economic growth trends in Germany and in Europe generally.[3] The economy has to stay somewhat healthy in German for immigrants to desire to move there. [1] http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-in-nearly-two-decades/a-17363452 http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra... [3] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-economy-is-broken http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-ec...

kbar13 12y ago
there are more immigrants moving to germany <compared to the past>

ExpiredLink 12y ago

"Immigrants" from Italy and Spain? Is the author joking or just ignorant? People within the EU can live and work wherever they want. No "immigration procedure" necessary. Just pack your things and go.

sapiogram 12y ago
> immigrant, noun. > 1. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another. I think he knows exactly what "immigrants" means.
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idlewords 12y ago

So immigrant-friendly that sometimes it even comes to you!

l33tbro 12y ago
Immigrant friendly, sure. Refugee friendly? Not so much. Berlin is having some massive issues right now with how to handle them (1). Then again, I'm in Australia, so I can't really talk. (1) https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis

avar 12y ago

What's the endgame for propping up population numbers with immigration? Surely the whole system falls apart once the net fertility rate falls below 2. What then? There's good reasons to be immigration-friendly, but dealing with the endgame of the inevitably shrinking population like the Japanese are doing seems like a better long-term strategy than the temporary band-aid solution of solving the problem in the short-term with increased immigration.

mqsiuser 12y ago

An architect (known HERE IN GERMANY to be an over-run study-topic with too little jobs or low pay (until you made it)), a social worker, which is now a dish washer. Highly qualified foreign workers (which we highly need)... even if the article portrayed a university guy... where are we (Germany, Europe, rest of the world) on a global ranking on universities?! (We are well behind Berkley, Stanford and Harvard!) There were only 170 "expert workers" coming in the first year [1]. Also on that link a more in-side discussion (german residents) with much more critical tone (Google translate may help). And I am not against that all the Russians, Rumanians and now also the people from the recent crisis come here because of hard economic problems in their country. But... you know... let's keep the church in the village. People are having less and less offspring because live gets more difficult here (work opportunities only in big cities, living costs (esp. housing FOR A FAMILY), taxes, requirement to travel, etc.). And then arguing "we need people/imigrants"... it's just twisting everything... like a german politician said "I make me my world as I'd like it to be"). There is even the debate here, that "Germany gets rid of itself". And then YC summer "batch" consisting of 68 groups, which received funding (some, then "B", "C", what 1 Mio, then 21 Mio)... wow... there is not much here (sorry, no it's not!) Ignorance is bliss ("ja ja ja, the Americans are just more risk-friendly", end of personal horizont) It's good to be called a "SF based company" "Made in Germany", yeah... cars... and cars and cars (I wouldn't wonder if Google or Apple or a StartUp (Tesla?) would crush these next) Europe, welcome to the old world! But what will it look like in 10 or 20 years? [1] http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article131322266/Im-ersten-Jahr-kamen-nur-170-Fachkraefte.html http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article...

facepalm 12y ago
I think the universities are really good. I agree on the cars issue. Makes me really nervous that everything hinges on the car industry and they don't seem to get the future at all.

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