7 ms·

“Prison is a bit like copyright”, says jailed Pirate Bay founder

206 points by Garbage 12y ago

mike-cardwell 12y ago
That description does not live up to the image I had of Scandinavian prisons. Although I suppose an 8 month sentence will never be about rehabilitation and can only be used as punishment.
- leke 12y ago
  I think you are thinking of Norway.
  - xxs 12y ago
    I second that: Sweden is no Norway and Scandinavian is not universal.
- marvin 12y ago
  It is probably a good idea to think twice before you believe a source that says our criminal justice system is all fun and joy. The Scandinavian system is good, but I still don't think being in prison here is easy. (Not to mention that Sunde is pretty close to being a political prisoner, if you consider the details of how the case was carried out).
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    Political prisoner? The guy personally profited off movie piracy. If Sunde is a political prisoner for breaking copyright laws then so is any drug dealer for breaking drug control laws. I don't get the elevation of these guys on some pedestal. I understand we all like getting stuff for free but TPB was not some political project. If they had really believed copyright was so evil they'd have built a site distributing great content people wanted to watch that was licensed liberally by its creators; thus proving that the open source model could work for movies and TV shows. They'd have done what Stallman did. But they didn't.
    - marvin 12y ago
      You misunderstand me. Sunde would not have been prosecuted in Sweden if it was not for political pressure from the United States. Norway and Sweden have a long history of bowing to US pressure when it comes to internal matters. The TPB guys did break Swedish law (*as interpreted by the lower courts) but would not have been chased by the Swedish legal system if it wasn't for external pressure. If I remember correctly, there are also indications that the appeal was unfairly rejected, but I would have to read up on it to be certain.
- Udo 12y ago
  As a European, I was surprised, too. But the key thing to remember here is that he pissed off some very influential people, so it's likely they stuck him in a maximum security facility with a lot of hardened criminals and some instructions to make his life as difficult as possible. Which is par for the course when you're an activist I guess, and a borderline-but-not-quite political prisoner. If you're someone who gives the authorities a hard time, they'll in turn give you a hard time, such is the nature of political corruption. However, it's important to keep in mind that his sentence is only 10 months, which may not even be served fully. Those months are going to be bad, but the guy will return to his normal life pretty soon. He's a community hero, and financially taken care of, so there's probably not a lot to be worried about in the mid to long term.
  - pathy 12y ago
    >so it's likely they stuck him in a maximum security facility with a lot of hardened criminals and some instructions to make his life as difficult as possible The prison is ranked as a "lower security class" prison (Class 2). With 1 being highest and 3 lowest. Considering that he dodged his sentence for several years it is not unreasonable to have him in the slightly higher security prison. Additonally I believe the class 3 prisons are "open prisons" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_prison ).
    - Udo 12y ago
      Thanks for clearing that up. The article certainly makes an effort to depict it very differently.
  - alsetmusic 12y ago
    > Those months are going to be bad, but the guy will return to his normal life pretty soon. I don't know what life is like in other countries, but in the US the branding of having been to prison makes a normal life difficult. My brother made a bad mistake of striking a federal employee about ten years ago and he still can't get work doing more than clearing dishes because of it. He's brilliant, btw, but he'll probably never have an office job or similar ever again.
- zura 12y ago
  I guess Scandinavian prisons are good for real criminals...
- vinkelhake 12y ago
  Considering that he is an activist, his description might not be entirely accurate.
- kalleboo 12y ago
  Doesn't it? It doesn't seem to contradict anything I've read. "The worst thing is the boredom" he says. They even let him buy vegan food. Then there are some restrictions on the mail he receives. I guess one of the "socialist utopia prison" articles had something about a guy with a Playstation and a TV, but that's probably something you earn after years of good behavior, and Sunde is only in for months. Nothing like the stories I hear from the US which are all about concrete walls and toilets with no seat, unsanitary conditions, drug smuggling, violence, etc.
leke 12y ago
> Other items that arrive in the mail, such as vegan candy, won’t be handed out to him until after his release, “but at least the prison has to catalog every single thing you send me, which pisses them off,” Peter says with a wink. Imagine if millions of people from all around the world sent Peter something every week. I think the prison would want him out of there pretty quick.
- mike-cardwell 12y ago
  Personally, if I was in prison, annoying the staff would be the last thing I wanted to do.
  - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
    It's a rather civilized country, he won't get raped by the staff.
    - sjtrny 12y ago
      I don't think that was the concern. Probably something less sinister, like delaying his mail or disallowing exercise time etc.
- reitzensteinm 12y ago
  It would be pretty funny to mail one of those travel chess and checkers sets, one piece at a time. The result would be something (potentially) useful and it would be obvious if any were misplaced. Only if you view this case as being worthy of civil disobedience, of course.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
hazz 12y ago
Here is the original article, paragraphs of which seem to have been stitched together to make the TorrentFreak version: http://senficon.eu/2014/08/prison-is-a-bit-like-copyright-peter-sunde/ http://senficon.eu/2014/08/prison-is-a-bit-like-copyright-pe...
- e12e 12y ago
  Indeed. Thanks for the link. The difference is about 1451 to 1152 words (the torrentfreak version is shorter).
  - frandroid 12y ago
    The question is, is the TorrentFreak version a good edit or should I rush to the longer version? :P
    - c3o 12y ago
      The TorrentFreak version is missing a few of the more personal paragraphs about Julia Reda's experience visiting him. His statements are intact.
- dang 12y ago
  Thanks. We changed to that from http://torrentfreak.com/visited-pirate-bays-peter-sunde-prison-heres-say-140816/ http://torrentfreak.com/visited-pirate-bays-peter-sunde-pris....
l33tbro 12y ago
Knock "centralization" all you will, but users must take responsibility for their online lives. I'm sure it gives Sunde revolutionary feels to espouse decentralization and demonize Big Internet, but the sad reality is that users are the ones that have made Facebook and Google powerful and monolithic walled gardens. Every society get's the internet it deserves.
- Intermernet 12y ago
  Is this like saying most hospital patients should take responsibility for their own society's health-care system? It's beyond the scope of the average person to research alternatives, define alternatives, promote said alternatives and push them as hard, or harder, than the big players in any field. Saying that "users are the ones that have made Facebook and Google powerful and monolithic walled gardens" is ignoring the fact that those "in the know" have been arguing against these practices since their inception, and that competing against these corporations would take a huge marketing campaign in order to even get the word out that alternatives exist. For example: Many people are happy with Pandora, Spotify, Rdio etc for their music listening. They aren't aware that they don't actually own the tracks in their playlists until they try to play them on something else, or burn them to CD etc. This is an example of a paradigm shifting, with only half of the parties being aware of the shift. This is happening all the time, in all sorts of areas. The average (non IT industry) person has neither the time, nor inclination to keep up with these changes, they just want to listen to their music, look at their photos, read their email etc. Yes, caveat emptor is still a legitimate rule, but the number of caveats per emptor is getting ridiculous, and no-one in power seems to think this a bad thing. It seems that it's expected to assume that every provider (of goods or services) is megalomaniacally sociopathic, and if you get burnt by such behaviour, it's your own fault.
  - l33tbro 12y ago
    "Is this like saying most hospital patients should take responsibility for their own society's health-care system?" Yes, they should. Look, you're right, it is beyond the scope of the average person to research alternatives. However, we live in a democratic society and it is out of our political apathy that the healthcare system has become what it is: an utter disgrace. If we were a truly compassionate society that prioritized ensuing health-care for all, then this is what we would have. Same goes for online. We love to bitch and moan about the government taking away net neutrality, our friends and parents thinking the internet is just Facebook, and of course the NSA. But it is us - you, I, our communities - that are creating this situation; not the government. Why? Because we are the government. Am I aware of how idealistic that sounds in 2014? Absolutely. But we are the ones who, ultimately, decide what level of lobbying and influence corporations have. We are the ones who ultimately decide what level of survelience we allow in our lives. That was my initial point. But of course, HN folks can be super-reacitionary to anything detracting from the open-source caliphate. Believe me, no one wants a more bio-diverse online ecosystem than I. I've written extensively about it. However, this is the issue it comes down to. We get what we deserve. What's more, if these were important issues in society (which I, in the minority, believe theyt are) then it would galvanize into actual policy being created. We're in the West. We have democratic ideals. Utilize them. Our entire system and culture is based upon these. It's what justifies wars. If you're not happy about the system, lobby your friends and create movements. Ironically, this is what the Pirate Bay guys have done. they've gone out and come at IP in a major way, and have felt the might of the law against their favour. I'm not going to comment on whether that's right or wrong, because it isn't the issue. The issue is that we, now, through the sum part of a billion tiny actions, have the chance in this moment to influence the future of this space. The future of IP. The future of rewarding creators fairly. So instead of whinging about Big Internet (which is what happens a lot in this forum - where cries go unheard) - actually take some practical steps to lobby. So that is why. We get the internet we deserve is that we must take collective responsibility for what kind of world we are creating. Unfortunatley, this is a highly unfashionable stance in age of cynicism and entitlement.
zerr 12y ago
What I don't understand - I'm still happily using Pirate Bay along with bunch of other torrent sites (but mostly through torrentz.net search engine). So what's the story behind it? Why PB still operates if it is proven that it is illegal?
- lnanek2 12y ago
  I assume they just moved their servers to another country.
- omegaham 12y ago
  It's one thing to say that it's illegal. It's another thing entirely to shut it down. So, the Pirate Bay's servers are in countries that either don't care to enforce or aren't able to enforce copyright law.
  - toyg 12y ago
    Not just that. I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that they employ a very decentralized and redundant architecture, where almost nobody is in a position to compromise the entire setup. They had to evolve this way after it became clear that Swedish authorities were after them. From what I understand, even their own admins often don't know where their servers are anymore. This resistance to physical attacks is why countries eventually started blocking it at the consumer end, through ISP-enforced bans. It's a shame they can't talk more openly about it, I'm sure they could teach some valuable lessons in reliability.
    - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
      That and it's worth noting that TPB doesn't actually host any pirated content. It only provides magnet links.
- belorn 12y ago
  Many reasons: The site today is just text with a simplistic search engine attached. This make relocating them very simple, duplication very simple, and running it very simple. Because the site is that simplistic, removing it gets that much harder. Its like trying to remove illegal numbers from the internet, and expecting that one large raid on the number central will do it. What lobbyist are trying to do is takeing the site down through DNS by getting TLD's responsible for the internet at large. This is a bad idea(tm), and is being pushed against by the TLD's. It would also not work.
pavanred 12y ago
Here's a question on a slightly related note. It is widely known that Gottfrid Svartholm (anakata) is not provided access to books as opposed to Peter Sunde. But, Gottfrid is allowed to receive letters. I was wondering if there is any legal restriction on the content of the letters sent to such prisoners. If not, would it be OK if books are sent by the page via letters either as-is or paraphrased?
- hippich 12y ago
  as-is could be copyright infringement. paraphrased - could be ok (although IANAL :))
  - philbarr 12y ago
    Surely it's not copyright infringement unless you claim you wrote it yourself? Like, you could buy a book, tear the pages out of it and send that.
    - cwp 12y ago
      If you claim to have written it yourself, that's plagiarism. It would only be copyright infringement if you sent photocopies of the pages of the book. If you're sending the original pages, there's no copying, and thus no infringement.
bellerocky 12y ago
> “If you don’t constantly insist upon your rights, you will be denied them” I think in US Jails like Rikers is that if you insist upon your rights you will be thrown into solitary. Americans don't think prisoners should have rights, they went through the due process system and lost them because they did something bad.
- killerpopiller 12y ago
  allegedly anyways
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
agumonkey 12y ago
I remember tpb showing his jail mailbox, so he can read mail but is he allowed to answer them ?
bane 12y ago
I think it's interesting to contemplate that all this is not about TPB relieving anybody of their property, but the possibility of preventing somebody from making the maximum amount of money possible off of their property. TPB doesn't even host copyrighted material, and the access they grant to it requires just enough technical knowhow that most people don't even bother and just pay for netflix and itunes. Under no conceivable legal system has TPB violated any law (though TPB's users may have). The closest analogy I can think of is putting the mayor of a city into prison because there are people in the city who might break the law, and properly running city services and having functional roads, public transport, property title management, etc. enables them to break the law slightly more easily.

206 points by Garbage 12y ago

That description does not live up to the image I had of Scandinavian prisons. Although I suppose an 8 month sentence will never be about rehabilitation and can only be used as punishment.

leke 12y ago
I think you are thinking of Norway.
- xxs 12y ago
  I second that: Sweden is no Norway and Scandinavian is not universal.
marvin 12y ago
It is probably a good idea to think twice before you believe a source that says our criminal justice system is all fun and joy. The Scandinavian system is good, but I still don't think being in prison here is easy. (Not to mention that Sunde is pretty close to being a political prisoner, if you consider the details of how the case was carried out).
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  Political prisoner? The guy personally profited off movie piracy. If Sunde is a political prisoner for breaking copyright laws then so is any drug dealer for breaking drug control laws. I don't get the elevation of these guys on some pedestal. I understand we all like getting stuff for free but TPB was not some political project. If they had really believed copyright was so evil they'd have built a site distributing great content people wanted to watch that was licensed liberally by its creators; thus proving that the open source model could work for movies and TV shows. They'd have done what Stallman did. But they didn't.
  - marvin 12y ago
    You misunderstand me. Sunde would not have been prosecuted in Sweden if it was not for political pressure from the United States. Norway and Sweden have a long history of bowing to US pressure when it comes to internal matters. The TPB guys did break Swedish law (*as interpreted by the lower courts) but would not have been chased by the Swedish legal system if it wasn't for external pressure. If I remember correctly, there are also indications that the appeal was unfairly rejected, but I would have to read up on it to be certain.
Udo 12y ago
As a European, I was surprised, too. But the key thing to remember here is that he pissed off some very influential people, so it's likely they stuck him in a maximum security facility with a lot of hardened criminals and some instructions to make his life as difficult as possible. Which is par for the course when you're an activist I guess, and a borderline-but-not-quite political prisoner. If you're someone who gives the authorities a hard time, they'll in turn give you a hard time, such is the nature of political corruption. However, it's important to keep in mind that his sentence is only 10 months, which may not even be served fully. Those months are going to be bad, but the guy will return to his normal life pretty soon. He's a community hero, and financially taken care of, so there's probably not a lot to be worried about in the mid to long term.
- pathy 12y ago
  >so it's likely they stuck him in a maximum security facility with a lot of hardened criminals and some instructions to make his life as difficult as possible The prison is ranked as a "lower security class" prison (Class 2). With 1 being highest and 3 lowest. Considering that he dodged his sentence for several years it is not unreasonable to have him in the slightly higher security prison. Additonally I believe the class 3 prisons are "open prisons" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_prison ).
  - Udo 12y ago
    Thanks for clearing that up. The article certainly makes an effort to depict it very differently.
- alsetmusic 12y ago
  > Those months are going to be bad, but the guy will return to his normal life pretty soon. I don't know what life is like in other countries, but in the US the branding of having been to prison makes a normal life difficult. My brother made a bad mistake of striking a federal employee about ten years ago and he still can't get work doing more than clearing dishes because of it. He's brilliant, btw, but he'll probably never have an office job or similar ever again.
zura 12y ago
I guess Scandinavian prisons are good for real criminals...
vinkelhake 12y ago
Considering that he is an activist, his description might not be entirely accurate.
kalleboo 12y ago
Doesn't it? It doesn't seem to contradict anything I've read. "The worst thing is the boredom" he says. They even let him buy vegan food. Then there are some restrictions on the mail he receives. I guess one of the "socialist utopia prison" articles had something about a guy with a Playstation and a TV, but that's probably something you earn after years of good behavior, and Sunde is only in for months. Nothing like the stories I hear from the US which are all about concrete walls and toilets with no seat, unsanitary conditions, drug smuggling, violence, etc.

leke 12y ago

> Other items that arrive in the mail, such as vegan candy, won’t be handed out to him until after his release, “but at least the prison has to catalog every single thing you send me, which pisses them off,” Peter says with a wink. Imagine if millions of people from all around the world sent Peter something every week. I think the prison would want him out of there pretty quick.

mike-cardwell 12y ago
Personally, if I was in prison, annoying the staff would be the last thing I wanted to do.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  It's a rather civilized country, he won't get raped by the staff.
  - sjtrny 12y ago
    I don't think that was the concern. Probably something less sinister, like delaying his mail or disallowing exercise time etc.
reitzensteinm 12y ago
It would be pretty funny to mail one of those travel chess and checkers sets, one piece at a time. The result would be something (potentially) useful and it would be obvious if any were misplaced. Only if you view this case as being worthy of civil disobedience, of course.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

hazz 12y ago

Here is the original article, paragraphs of which seem to have been stitched together to make the TorrentFreak version: http://senficon.eu/2014/08/prison-is-a-bit-like-copyright-peter-sunde/ http://senficon.eu/2014/08/prison-is-a-bit-like-copyright-pe...

e12e 12y ago
Indeed. Thanks for the link. The difference is about 1451 to 1152 words (the torrentfreak version is shorter).
- frandroid 12y ago
  The question is, is the TorrentFreak version a good edit or should I rush to the longer version? :P
  - c3o 12y ago
    The TorrentFreak version is missing a few of the more personal paragraphs about Julia Reda's experience visiting him. His statements are intact.
dang 12y ago
Thanks. We changed to that from http://torrentfreak.com/visited-pirate-bays-peter-sunde-prison-heres-say-140816/ http://torrentfreak.com/visited-pirate-bays-peter-sunde-pris....

l33tbro 12y ago

Knock "centralization" all you will, but users must take responsibility for their online lives. I'm sure it gives Sunde revolutionary feels to espouse decentralization and demonize Big Internet, but the sad reality is that users are the ones that have made Facebook and Google powerful and monolithic walled gardens. Every society get's the internet it deserves.

Intermernet 12y ago
Is this like saying most hospital patients should take responsibility for their own society's health-care system? It's beyond the scope of the average person to research alternatives, define alternatives, promote said alternatives and push them as hard, or harder, than the big players in any field. Saying that "users are the ones that have made Facebook and Google powerful and monolithic walled gardens" is ignoring the fact that those "in the know" have been arguing against these practices since their inception, and that competing against these corporations would take a huge marketing campaign in order to even get the word out that alternatives exist. For example: Many people are happy with Pandora, Spotify, Rdio etc for their music listening. They aren't aware that they don't actually own the tracks in their playlists until they try to play them on something else, or burn them to CD etc. This is an example of a paradigm shifting, with only half of the parties being aware of the shift. This is happening all the time, in all sorts of areas. The average (non IT industry) person has neither the time, nor inclination to keep up with these changes, they just want to listen to their music, look at their photos, read their email etc. Yes, caveat emptor is still a legitimate rule, but the number of caveats per emptor is getting ridiculous, and no-one in power seems to think this a bad thing. It seems that it's expected to assume that every provider (of goods or services) is megalomaniacally sociopathic, and if you get burnt by such behaviour, it's your own fault.
- l33tbro 12y ago
  "Is this like saying most hospital patients should take responsibility for their own society's health-care system?" Yes, they should. Look, you're right, it is beyond the scope of the average person to research alternatives. However, we live in a democratic society and it is out of our political apathy that the healthcare system has become what it is: an utter disgrace. If we were a truly compassionate society that prioritized ensuing health-care for all, then this is what we would have. Same goes for online. We love to bitch and moan about the government taking away net neutrality, our friends and parents thinking the internet is just Facebook, and of course the NSA. But it is us - you, I, our communities - that are creating this situation; not the government. Why? Because we are the government. Am I aware of how idealistic that sounds in 2014? Absolutely. But we are the ones who, ultimately, decide what level of lobbying and influence corporations have. We are the ones who ultimately decide what level of survelience we allow in our lives. That was my initial point. But of course, HN folks can be super-reacitionary to anything detracting from the open-source caliphate. Believe me, no one wants a more bio-diverse online ecosystem than I. I've written extensively about it. However, this is the issue it comes down to. We get what we deserve. What's more, if these were important issues in society (which I, in the minority, believe theyt are) then it would galvanize into actual policy being created. We're in the West. We have democratic ideals. Utilize them. Our entire system and culture is based upon these. It's what justifies wars. If you're not happy about the system, lobby your friends and create movements. Ironically, this is what the Pirate Bay guys have done. they've gone out and come at IP in a major way, and have felt the might of the law against their favour. I'm not going to comment on whether that's right or wrong, because it isn't the issue. The issue is that we, now, through the sum part of a billion tiny actions, have the chance in this moment to influence the future of this space. The future of IP. The future of rewarding creators fairly. So instead of whinging about Big Internet (which is what happens a lot in this forum - where cries go unheard) - actually take some practical steps to lobby. So that is why. We get the internet we deserve is that we must take collective responsibility for what kind of world we are creating. Unfortunatley, this is a highly unfashionable stance in age of cynicism and entitlement.

zerr 12y ago

What I don't understand - I'm still happily using Pirate Bay along with bunch of other torrent sites (but mostly through torrentz.net search engine). So what's the story behind it? Why PB still operates if it is proven that it is illegal?

lnanek2 12y ago
I assume they just moved their servers to another country.
omegaham 12y ago
It's one thing to say that it's illegal. It's another thing entirely to shut it down. So, the Pirate Bay's servers are in countries that either don't care to enforce or aren't able to enforce copyright law.
- toyg 12y ago
  Not just that. I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that they employ a very decentralized and redundant architecture, where almost nobody is in a position to compromise the entire setup. They had to evolve this way after it became clear that Swedish authorities were after them. From what I understand, even their own admins often don't know where their servers are anymore. This resistance to physical attacks is why countries eventually started blocking it at the consumer end, through ISP-enforced bans. It's a shame they can't talk more openly about it, I'm sure they could teach some valuable lessons in reliability.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    That and it's worth noting that TPB doesn't actually host any pirated content. It only provides magnet links.
belorn 12y ago
Many reasons: The site today is just text with a simplistic search engine attached. This make relocating them very simple, duplication very simple, and running it very simple. Because the site is that simplistic, removing it gets that much harder. Its like trying to remove illegal numbers from the internet, and expecting that one large raid on the number central will do it. What lobbyist are trying to do is takeing the site down through DNS by getting TLD's responsible for the internet at large. This is a bad idea(tm), and is being pushed against by the TLD's. It would also not work.

pavanred 12y ago

Here's a question on a slightly related note. It is widely known that Gottfrid Svartholm (anakata) is not provided access to books as opposed to Peter Sunde. But, Gottfrid is allowed to receive letters. I was wondering if there is any legal restriction on the content of the letters sent to such prisoners. If not, would it be OK if books are sent by the page via letters either as-is or paraphrased?

hippich 12y ago
as-is could be copyright infringement. paraphrased - could be ok (although IANAL :))
- philbarr 12y ago
  Surely it's not copyright infringement unless you claim you wrote it yourself? Like, you could buy a book, tear the pages out of it and send that.
  - cwp 12y ago
    If you claim to have written it yourself, that's plagiarism. It would only be copyright infringement if you sent photocopies of the pages of the book. If you're sending the original pages, there's no copying, and thus no infringement.

bellerocky 12y ago

> “If you don’t constantly insist upon your rights, you will be denied them” I think in US Jails like Rikers is that if you insist upon your rights you will be thrown into solitary. Americans don't think prisoners should have rights, they went through the due process system and lost them because they did something bad.

killerpopiller 12y ago
allegedly anyways

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

agumonkey 12y ago

I remember tpb showing his jail mailbox, so he can read mail but is he allowed to answer them ?

bane 12y ago

I think it's interesting to contemplate that all this is not about TPB relieving anybody of their property, but the possibility of preventing somebody from making the maximum amount of money possible off of their property. TPB doesn't even host copyrighted material, and the access they grant to it requires just enough technical knowhow that most people don't even bother and just pay for netflix and itunes. Under no conceivable legal system has TPB violated any law (though TPB's users may have). The closest analogy I can think of is putting the mayor of a city into prison because there are people in the city who might break the law, and properly running city services and having functional roads, public transport, property title management, etc. enables them to break the law slightly more easily.