4 ms·

There was an excellent comment some months ago that best captures my thought on the matter (and on the players): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7384317 ht

by sheetjs 12y ago

There was an excellent comment some months ago that best captures my thought on the matter (and on the players): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7384317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7384317 > If services like Uber and Lyft simply decided to be a cab company with excellent technological underpinnings, people would have been quite happy with them and they would have been quite profitable. And they could have blown most cab companies out of the water. Buying up inefficient operators, consolidating them, and bringing them into the modern world of technology is a really good business plan. > Uber and Lyft are in trouble because they wanted to be exit strategy profitable rather than simply profitable. And they decided to do this by ignoring all of that icky stuff like liability insurance, commercial licensing, and following the law. In addition, Uber and Lyft tend to want to ply their trade in areas which are already profitable to cab companies rather than taking over areas that are underserved. If they were brokering rides in areas that can't get cabs easily, they would have lots of defenders.

madeofpalk 12y ago
But Uber does actually exist as a "cab company with excellent technological underpinnings." You can request actual licensed taxis and licenced black hire cars through Uber. But they are heavily regulated though. For example, at least in Australia, a taxi has to be a particular make/model/style of car, and a hire cars can only be cars more expensive than $60k AUD [1]. There's no room in the middle for a nice, normal car that's not too expensive that it jacks up fares. I think Uber's biggest problem is not actually knowing or understanding what Uber is - I have friends say to be all the time 'Uber, isnt that illegal?', where it's only a very recent product of Uber (UberX) that's in a weird legal gray area. Ubers original, best and most popular (I presume) product, Uber Black - is just standard hire car service with a fancy app and payment system. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_Car_Tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_Car_Tax
- nl 12y ago
  For example, at least in Australia, a taxi has to be a particular make/model/style of car Citation needed. I can't find anything that specifies that, but the Wikipedia article[1] lists a large number of cars in use just in NSW. and a hire cars can only be cars more expensive than $60k AUD[1] Again, citation needed (and I'm not sure why you are linking to the Luxury Car Tax - that applies to all cars). The NT legislation[1] doesn't say that, and the Victorian Government's taxi website[3] says the opposite: >Hire cars can only operate after being previously booked. They can be luxury sedans, stretched limousines, hybrids and non-luxury vehicles. (Emphasis mine) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Australia#New_South_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Australia#New_South... [2] http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nt/consol_reg/lr238/ http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nt/consol_reg/lr238/ [3] http://www.taxi.vic.gov.au/owners-and-operators/hire-cars http://www.taxi.vic.gov.au/owners-and-operators/hire-cars
  - madeofpalk 12y ago
    There's a list of approved car makes and models for use in NSW[1], and the livery must be approved by the government[2] for it to be used. NSW[3] has a number of different criteria. Put basically, needs to be either 1) wheelbase of 2800mm (which is almost always luxury cars), 2) a hybrid car seeting 5 to 9 people, or, most commonly, a car that luxury goods tax was sold on. [1]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/taxi-operators http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/taxi-operators [2]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/hirecar/facts-sheet-1-private-hire-vehicle-criteria.pdf http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/hire... [3]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/taxi/metro-net-standards.pdf http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/taxi...
    - nl 12y ago
      Both the Commodore and the Falcon have wheelbases over 2800 mm. Neither are luxury cars. I agree that is an outdated rule.
- vacri 12y ago
  From what I know, taxis look the same because of fleet discounts. Here in Victoria, they also need to be marked with a yellow chequerboard pattern, but that's not the case elsewhere in the country.
gerbal 12y ago
> Uber and Lyft are in trouble because they wanted to be exit strategy profitable rather than simply profitable. I think this gets at one of the key problems with the current psychology of startups. Everything is build around creating an illusion of rapid, exponential growth, even if that growth is unsustainable. In the long run the exit focused strategies of startups and VCs mean we are going to be left with a few monolithic tech companies striding among the burnt out corpses of energetic, innovative startups, left to die because they couldn't reasonably target a high value exit strategy.
- api 12y ago
  It's not startup founders themselves. Many would rather build long sighted businesses. But exit focus is the only thing that gets funded.
lnanek2 12y ago
> If they were brokering rides in areas that can't get cabs easily, they would have lots of defenders. I've been in SF regularly for business for half a dozen years now, I've never had a cab stop for me when I tried to hail it like in NYC. When I've called cab companies, the cab has only shown up 50% of the time and only after 20 or 30 minutes. With Uber the car has always come, and come much faster, and I can watch on the screen what is happening and text the driver if needed. The cab system is just plain broken and SF is very underserved. I imagine it is just as badly managed as the housing where they are refusing to let people build upward.
- edwardhotchkiss 12y ago
  I wrote above about this. Moving from NYC to SF was a complete mindfucking as trying to get anywhere without a car attempting to call taxis that actually show up; that take credit cards was near impossible.
- lawnchair_larry 12y ago
  It's worth noting that regulatory capture basically guarantees that you will never see simple innovations such as car tracking and driver messaging.
  - aetherson 12y ago
    Just to be clear, both of those things absolutely exist in cabs.
    - Kliment 12y ago
      Sure they do, but they are not accessible to the customer.
apsec112 12y ago
"And they decided to do this by ignoring all of that icky stuff like liability insurance, commercial licensing, and following the law." Totally false, as thirty seconds of Googling will tell you: https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.lyft.com/safety https://www.lyft.com/safety
- eridius 12y ago
  That's what they say today. That's not what they launched with.
- makomk 12y ago
  Originally, Uber drivers weren't insured to drive passengers at all, so their car insurance was void and they were effectively driving uninsured. They didn't change this until the media and the police got wind of it. Even now, there are issues with drivers being uninsured when they're driving around looking for customers but don't have someone in the car.
rhizome 12y ago
If services like Uber and Lyft simply decided to be a cab company with excellent technological underpinnings, people would have been quite happy with them and they would have been quite profitable. In SF, this is absolutely not the case. Uber and Lyft simply would not be able to "decide to be a cab company" at all. Total non-starter. Taxi drivers require a medallion to pick up passengers, and those are strictly limited by law. They are also already all taken by existing cab companies, either directly or through renting them from the actual medallion holders, and there's a 10+ year waiting list for a medallion unless you have $250K to purchase one from an existing holder (who wants to sell).
- aetherson 12y ago
  You don't understand the dynamic of medallions in SF. Medallions in SF are owned only by taxi drivers, not by cab companies. You must drive a cab 800 hours per year in order to own a medallion. You can't own multiple medallions. Taxi fleets, in SF, provide vehicles, dispatch services, insurance, and maintenance, as well as basically being intermediaries for medallions. Driver-owners with medallions rent their medallions to the fleet, who then hand them out to their drivers who are not owners, to give them the legal right to act as a taxi for that shift. The fleets get revenue (typically) through gate fees, which is basically a fee each driver pays when they take the vehicle off the lot. You do not have to sign up to get a medallion in order to be a fleet -- nor can you own a medallion. You'd need to either attract several medallioned drivers to your fleet (hardly impossible: make them a better offer than their current fleet -- they aren't owners or otherwise locked into their existing fleet), or, perhaps better if you want to make a big entrance into the market quickly, buy out one of the existing fleets and continue its arrangement with its medallioned drivers. I take no position on whether it would have been a good idea for Uber or Lyft to do something like this -- I'm just saying that there is not a mandatory 10 year waiting period or anything.
  - rhizome 12y ago
    * You must drive a cab 800 hours per year in order to own a medallion.* This is 16 weeks of 5-day 10-hour shifts, and about one-third of the existing medallions are pre-Proposition K medallions that do not have a driving requirement. However, the medallions are in valid 24 hours a day. I didn't say there was a mandatory 10 year requirement for driving a cab, that would be silly. However, there is a 10+ year waiting list for a person to get their own medallion, which promotes them out of the gate-and-gas rat race.

by sheetjs 12y ago

madeofpalk 12y ago

But Uber does actually exist as a "cab company with excellent technological underpinnings." You can request actual licensed taxis and licenced black hire cars through Uber. But they are heavily regulated though. For example, at least in Australia, a taxi has to be a particular make/model/style of car, and a hire cars can only be cars more expensive than $60k AUD [1]. There's no room in the middle for a nice, normal car that's not too expensive that it jacks up fares. I think Uber's biggest problem is not actually knowing or understanding what Uber is - I have friends say to be all the time 'Uber, isnt that illegal?', where it's only a very recent product of Uber (UberX) that's in a weird legal gray area. Ubers original, best and most popular (I presume) product, Uber Black - is just standard hire car service with a fancy app and payment system. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_Car_Tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_Car_Tax

nl 12y ago
For example, at least in Australia, a taxi has to be a particular make/model/style of car Citation needed. I can't find anything that specifies that, but the Wikipedia article[1] lists a large number of cars in use just in NSW. and a hire cars can only be cars more expensive than $60k AUD[1] Again, citation needed (and I'm not sure why you are linking to the Luxury Car Tax - that applies to all cars). The NT legislation[1] doesn't say that, and the Victorian Government's taxi website[3] says the opposite: >Hire cars can only operate after being previously booked. They can be luxury sedans, stretched limousines, hybrids and non-luxury vehicles. (Emphasis mine) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Australia#New_South_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Australia#New_South... [2] http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nt/consol_reg/lr238/ http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nt/consol_reg/lr238/ [3] http://www.taxi.vic.gov.au/owners-and-operators/hire-cars http://www.taxi.vic.gov.au/owners-and-operators/hire-cars
- madeofpalk 12y ago
  There's a list of approved car makes and models for use in NSW[1], and the livery must be approved by the government[2] for it to be used. NSW[3] has a number of different criteria. Put basically, needs to be either 1) wheelbase of 2800mm (which is almost always luxury cars), 2) a hybrid car seeting 5 to 9 people, or, most commonly, a car that luxury goods tax was sold on. [1]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/taxi-operators http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/taxi-operators [2]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/hirecar/facts-sheet-1-private-hire-vehicle-criteria.pdf http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/hire... [3]: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/taxi/metro-net-standards.pdf http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/taxi...
  - nl 12y ago
    Both the Commodore and the Falcon have wheelbases over 2800 mm. Neither are luxury cars. I agree that is an outdated rule.
vacri 12y ago
From what I know, taxis look the same because of fleet discounts. Here in Victoria, they also need to be marked with a yellow chequerboard pattern, but that's not the case elsewhere in the country.

gerbal 12y ago

> Uber and Lyft are in trouble because they wanted to be exit strategy profitable rather than simply profitable. I think this gets at one of the key problems with the current psychology of startups. Everything is build around creating an illusion of rapid, exponential growth, even if that growth is unsustainable. In the long run the exit focused strategies of startups and VCs mean we are going to be left with a few monolithic tech companies striding among the burnt out corpses of energetic, innovative startups, left to die because they couldn't reasonably target a high value exit strategy.

api 12y ago
It's not startup founders themselves. Many would rather build long sighted businesses. But exit focus is the only thing that gets funded.

lnanek2 12y ago

> If they were brokering rides in areas that can't get cabs easily, they would have lots of defenders. I've been in SF regularly for business for half a dozen years now, I've never had a cab stop for me when I tried to hail it like in NYC. When I've called cab companies, the cab has only shown up 50% of the time and only after 20 or 30 minutes. With Uber the car has always come, and come much faster, and I can watch on the screen what is happening and text the driver if needed. The cab system is just plain broken and SF is very underserved. I imagine it is just as badly managed as the housing where they are refusing to let people build upward.

edwardhotchkiss 12y ago
I wrote above about this. Moving from NYC to SF was a complete mindfucking as trying to get anywhere without a car attempting to call taxis that actually show up; that take credit cards was near impossible.
lawnchair_larry 12y ago
It's worth noting that regulatory capture basically guarantees that you will never see simple innovations such as car tracking and driver messaging.
- aetherson 12y ago
  Just to be clear, both of those things absolutely exist in cabs.
  - Kliment 12y ago
    Sure they do, but they are not accessible to the customer.

apsec112 12y ago

"And they decided to do this by ignoring all of that icky stuff like liability insurance, commercial licensing, and following the law." Totally false, as thirty seconds of Googling will tell you: https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.lyft.com/safety https://www.lyft.com/safety

eridius 12y ago
That's what they say today. That's not what they launched with.
makomk 12y ago
Originally, Uber drivers weren't insured to drive passengers at all, so their car insurance was void and they were effectively driving uninsured. They didn't change this until the media and the police got wind of it. Even now, there are issues with drivers being uninsured when they're driving around looking for customers but don't have someone in the car.

rhizome 12y ago

If services like Uber and Lyft simply decided to be a cab company with excellent technological underpinnings, people would have been quite happy with them and they would have been quite profitable. In SF, this is absolutely not the case. Uber and Lyft simply would not be able to "decide to be a cab company" at all. Total non-starter. Taxi drivers require a medallion to pick up passengers, and those are strictly limited by law. They are also already all taken by existing cab companies, either directly or through renting them from the actual medallion holders, and there's a 10+ year waiting list for a medallion unless you have $250K to purchase one from an existing holder (who wants to sell).

aetherson 12y ago
You don't understand the dynamic of medallions in SF. Medallions in SF are owned only by taxi drivers, not by cab companies. You must drive a cab 800 hours per year in order to own a medallion. You can't own multiple medallions. Taxi fleets, in SF, provide vehicles, dispatch services, insurance, and maintenance, as well as basically being intermediaries for medallions. Driver-owners with medallions rent their medallions to the fleet, who then hand them out to their drivers who are not owners, to give them the legal right to act as a taxi for that shift. The fleets get revenue (typically) through gate fees, which is basically a fee each driver pays when they take the vehicle off the lot. You do not have to sign up to get a medallion in order to be a fleet -- nor can you own a medallion. You'd need to either attract several medallioned drivers to your fleet (hardly impossible: make them a better offer than their current fleet -- they aren't owners or otherwise locked into their existing fleet), or, perhaps better if you want to make a big entrance into the market quickly, buy out one of the existing fleets and continue its arrangement with its medallioned drivers. I take no position on whether it would have been a good idea for Uber or Lyft to do something like this -- I'm just saying that there is not a mandatory 10 year waiting period or anything.
- rhizome 12y ago
  * You must drive a cab 800 hours per year in order to own a medallion.* This is 16 weeks of 5-day 10-hour shifts, and about one-third of the existing medallions are pre-Proposition K medallions that do not have a driving requirement. However, the medallions are in valid 24 hours a day. I didn't say there was a mandatory 10 year requirement for driving a cab, that would be silly. However, there is a 10+ year waiting list for a person to get their own medallion, which promotes them out of the gate-and-gas rat race.