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I quite like the work you've done here! Most computers in a school are ill-equipped for programming needs. I'm a bit concerned that this laptop is designed wit

I quite like the work you've done here! Most computers in a school are ill-equipped for programming needs. I'm a bit concerned that this laptop is designed with an experienced programmer in mind. I don't think the *nix Terminal is friendly to noobs, considering it comes with no safety nets. Additionally, a teacher who is unfamiliar with Ubuntu is likely to have a hard time helping students. I tweeted a few more thoughts here: https://twitter.com/dshankar/timelines/497091774792228864 https://twitter.com/dshankar/timelines/497091774792228864 In it's current state, perhaps this laptop would be better suited at college students who are already familiar with the basics? At middle school/high school, students & teachers need a more friendly introduction into the programming world, not the real & scary one that is modern day Linux. However at the college level, students need tools that will prepare them for the industry and Codestarter packages all the tools one will likely use.

mojombo 12y ago
Thanks! We're targeting an age range of 7-17 years old, and distributing these laptops to kids that are attending learn-to-code programs like CoderDojo. For the very young, most will choose to boot ChromeOS and use online programming tools like Scratch, which is totally great. Installing Ubuntu gives more advanced kids a place to go further, with no limitations, and that's why we do it.
- dshankar 12y ago
  That makes sense. Considering how popular Chromebooks are becoming, this could be quite valuable for schools.
mdellabitta 12y ago
Why do you think that modern Linux is "real & scary"? They're installing Scratch, isn't that the opposite of scary?
TheCowboy 12y ago
Another thing to consider is if kids did something bad from the command line to catastrophically mess things up, it's easy to wipe the drive and do a fresh install. That itself is an invaluable learning experience. Knowing that breaking the software does not break the computer only helps pique a child's curiosity. (I first installed Slackware Linux when I was 12.) Exposure to the command line at an early age never hurts, as long as it doesn't get in the way.
tmathmeyer 12y ago
firstly, the posix SHELL is not at all unfriendly (terminal != shell), and introducing it earlier can only be beneficial. If you get scared by a shell, you probably shouldn't be in programming.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  If a 7 year old gets scared of a shell that does not mean they should not be learning programming. It seams reasonable to introduce shells early, but we should be aware of the risk of scaring off children with unintuitive interfaces.
  - bad_user 12y ago
    Is that a real risk? I mean, we aren't talking about breaking a leg. In my experience, as a father, the husband of a wife that works at a kindergarten and as an ex-child ... the best thing about being a kid is the courage you have in exploring new things. Take the opportunity of exploration away, in the name of safety and the effect may be the opposite of what you want. And actually, for better or worse, many of us as kids learned programming in "unsafe" environments. So the onus is on you to prove that the alternative is better. Surely a study could be made.
  - e12e 12y ago
    If we managed to load games from cassette tape on a c64 (or a vic20), a modern posix shell should be a walk in the park. In my experience, a kid will learn any number of rote actions required to launch a game. And then later work out what those actions meant.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      1) This shell is not required to play games, so that motivation is not relevant to this discussion. 2) survivorship bias. I think starting with something approachable like Scratch then advancing on to a posix shell in Ubuntu is a great idea, but I take issue with the attitude that if a child is scared by a shell they should not learn to program.
wiredfool 12y ago
I disagree. I've had some experience with middle schoolers and scratch, as well as my 10yr old. FWIW, my school district has access to iPads, Windows desktops, and chromebooks in varying quantities and frequencies through the grade levels. Once the middle schoolers were in the scratch shell, it's all about scratch. (Well, that and browsing the scratch repos for interesting projects). Would work just as well on linux as windows. Progressing to python with this group didn't work as well on windows as it would have on linux, because the terminals were infuriating for both the teacher and the students. (Also, there would have been a ton less issues getting stuff installed). My 10 yr old started seriously using a shared ubuntu desktop @ 8 did some scratch, then at 9.5 started on python, and now arduino. He's just fine with the terminal, for what little he needs to actually do with it.
bad_user 12y ago
When I was a kid exploring my brand new desktop, I broke it several times by deleting system files or wiping out my partition. It was a great learning experience to reinstall my OS, that also boosted my courage in trying things out. So I really don't understand this drive for safety features. If you want to teach kids to program it kind of defeats the purpose.
driverdan 12y ago
You must be young. 20+ years ago all of us were using shells / terminals just fine. Have people already forgot that everyone used text based operating systems before GUI OSes came around? If I could learn basic CPM commands on my dad's VT180 when I was 6 I think people learning to code can figure out Ubuntu.

mojombo 12y ago

Thanks! We're targeting an age range of 7-17 years old, and distributing these laptops to kids that are attending learn-to-code programs like CoderDojo. For the very young, most will choose to boot ChromeOS and use online programming tools like Scratch, which is totally great. Installing Ubuntu gives more advanced kids a place to go further, with no limitations, and that's why we do it.

dshankar 12y ago
That makes sense. Considering how popular Chromebooks are becoming, this could be quite valuable for schools.

mdellabitta 12y ago

Why do you think that modern Linux is "real & scary"? They're installing Scratch, isn't that the opposite of scary?

TheCowboy 12y ago

Another thing to consider is if kids did something bad from the command line to catastrophically mess things up, it's easy to wipe the drive and do a fresh install. That itself is an invaluable learning experience. Knowing that breaking the software does not break the computer only helps pique a child's curiosity. (I first installed Slackware Linux when I was 12.) Exposure to the command line at an early age never hurts, as long as it doesn't get in the way.

tmathmeyer 12y ago

firstly, the posix SHELL is not at all unfriendly (terminal != shell), and introducing it earlier can only be beneficial. If you get scared by a shell, you probably shouldn't be in programming.

seanflyon 12y ago
If a 7 year old gets scared of a shell that does not mean they should not be learning programming. It seams reasonable to introduce shells early, but we should be aware of the risk of scaring off children with unintuitive interfaces.
- bad_user 12y ago
  Is that a real risk? I mean, we aren't talking about breaking a leg. In my experience, as a father, the husband of a wife that works at a kindergarten and as an ex-child ... the best thing about being a kid is the courage you have in exploring new things. Take the opportunity of exploration away, in the name of safety and the effect may be the opposite of what you want. And actually, for better or worse, many of us as kids learned programming in "unsafe" environments. So the onus is on you to prove that the alternative is better. Surely a study could be made.
- e12e 12y ago
  If we managed to load games from cassette tape on a c64 (or a vic20), a modern posix shell should be a walk in the park. In my experience, a kid will learn any number of rote actions required to launch a game. And then later work out what those actions meant.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    1) This shell is not required to play games, so that motivation is not relevant to this discussion. 2) survivorship bias. I think starting with something approachable like Scratch then advancing on to a posix shell in Ubuntu is a great idea, but I take issue with the attitude that if a child is scared by a shell they should not learn to program.

wiredfool 12y ago

I disagree. I've had some experience with middle schoolers and scratch, as well as my 10yr old. FWIW, my school district has access to iPads, Windows desktops, and chromebooks in varying quantities and frequencies through the grade levels. Once the middle schoolers were in the scratch shell, it's all about scratch. (Well, that and browsing the scratch repos for interesting projects). Would work just as well on linux as windows. Progressing to python with this group didn't work as well on windows as it would have on linux, because the terminals were infuriating for both the teacher and the students. (Also, there would have been a ton less issues getting stuff installed). My 10 yr old started seriously using a shared ubuntu desktop @ 8 did some scratch, then at 9.5 started on python, and now arduino. He's just fine with the terminal, for what little he needs to actually do with it.

bad_user 12y ago

When I was a kid exploring my brand new desktop, I broke it several times by deleting system files or wiping out my partition. It was a great learning experience to reinstall my OS, that also boosted my courage in trying things out. So I really don't understand this drive for safety features. If you want to teach kids to program it kind of defeats the purpose.

driverdan 12y ago

You must be young. 20+ years ago all of us were using shells / terminals just fine. Have people already forgot that everyone used text based operating systems before GUI OSes came around? If I could learn basic CPM commands on my dad's VT180 when I was 6 I think people learning to code can figure out Ubuntu.