4 ms·

There's definitely a cultural thing at play- based on how companies behave, I feel like it's more socially acceptable in China to copy. In the west, there's a h

by GuiA 12y ago

There's definitely a cultural thing at play- based on how companies behave, I feel like it's more socially acceptable in China to copy. In the west, there's a huge stigma around it: for example copying in school is one of the worst offense you can commit- whereas I remember in grad school, all the chinese students would group up together before class and cross-check their answers with one another. This is anecdotal, but I feel like it lines up with what we see on the corporate side of things, and it makes sense that in a Confucian culture copying would be more acceptable than in the individualistic western cultures. That being said, I think it's a losing strategy in the long run for consumer devices manufacturers. In the short term it's definitely a gain- your phones are way better than they would be otherwise, because you're mimicking the best. However, Apple puts a lot of thought in its designs, and you can bet some of it is long term thinking (e.g. designing components/molds/etc. a certain way even if it's a bit more expensive because you can reuse them for other devices). When you're simply copying, you don't have access to all of these hidden variables, and it makes it very hard for you to build a viable long term strategy. It's definitely possible to copy competition in order to get the process etc. right, and then to spin off and start being original yourself - see a lot of Japanese electronics companies from the 70s/80s/90s, for instance. That being said, it's not easy to pull off, and it means you need internal designers who can come up with something better than what you've been copying all along. We'll see if that's the case for Xiaomi. Side question: are there famous, internationally recognized Chinese industrial designers? (along the lines of Dieter Rams, Jony Ive, etc.) I feel like I've never heard of any, but I can't tell if it's because the talent isn't there, or because the western media never reports on them, or because it's more of a collective culture where there wouldn't be the potential for a single individual to rise, or something else altogether. In a general manner, I'd love to read more about what being a designer is like in the more group-minded Asian cultures.

LiweiZ 12y ago
Brain-wise, I think all nations have the possibility to have some top achievers at any given field. It comes easier when the population is larger. The human beings' organizations come with so many system differences such as ways to cooperate, education system. I recommend to think from a system's perspective. If copy is a way to catch up and serve as the basis for evolving one‘s own true strengths (well, true strength here makes the difference), it's definitely a good thing. If copy only brings almost brain-dead repetition, even others can not stop it, it will implode in the end. Sorry to reply with such an abstract content. There are just too many things in my mind to say. So I try to provide some general ideas instead of be very specific. BTW, I do not like taking culture as a dimension of answer, since it's too general and culture is the symptom of an organization. When we talk about culture, we just has to accept the symptom of one organization as is. Hence, it brings us not much information. But it is extremely difficult to have some nice insights for culture we don't have enough context with.
kelukelugames 12y ago
To be fair, how many internationally famous designers does the average person know? Ives and maybe Norman?
userbinator 12y ago
The important thing to keep in mind is that the Chinese do not aim to copy complete designs - they reproduce the aspects that they like, omit what they don't, and then improve upon them with what consumers want. It's a very practical and pragmatic way to innovate. A lot of Chinese like the "Apple style", in terms of appearance, but not the price nor lock-in. This is why cloners have been successful in producing iPhone-lookalikes with removable batteries, dual SIM, expandable storage, larger displays, microUSB, and Android (look at e.g. the Jiayu G5) - the users are not after the complete Apple experience, they just want something that looks like an iPhone with all the standard features found on many other handsets that a real iPhone doesn't have. Also, the concept of vendor lock-in doesn't take hold as easily in a culture where copying is the norm - attempts to create new, incompatible proprietary standards will either fail if there is no significant advantage (the users will just avoid your product), or if there is a clear advantage, everyone else will soon have copied it. Some will say this limits innovation but I see it more as innovation happening slowly and more naturally to meet user's needs, as opposed to being forced.
crdoconnor 12y ago
>There's definitely a cultural thing at play This is not a cultural thing. It's just a stage in the country's industrial development. Once upon a time (when most people on HN were not alive) Japan was the country that rolled out cheap knock offs. Then, once they became good enough at it, they graduated to the stage of out-innovating the industries they were previously rolling out cheap knock offs for. Many western countries including America followed the same cycle during the industrial revolution(s). >That being said, I think it's a losing strategy in the long run for consumer devices manufacturers It's not a long run strategy for China any more than it was for Japan. It's not even a strategy, really - it's more of a "market configuration", actually. Chinese companies have a currency advantage but less capital and brand equity available to take riskier (innovative) gambles. So it makes sense to go the cheap knockoff route. Once they have brand equity, capital reserves and have lost their currency advantage they will out-innovate or they will die. They're already a long way along this road. A "Xiaomi" would never have happened 5 years ago. The idea that a Chinese company could rival the industrial design of an Apple phone was seen as something close to laughable. 10 years ago they could barely even consider designing a smartphone at all.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
CAFA (Central Academy of Fine Arts) near my apartment has a decent industrial design department. Chinese companies are also willing to employ international talent, and competition for jobs in the field of industrial design is tight enough that they have no problem filling those roles decently (too many kids what to be Ives).
msie 12y ago
whereas I remember in grad school, all the chinese students would group up together before class and cross-check their answers with one another. I remember in school all the engineering students would group up together before class and cross-check their answers with one another. It makes sense to me. They were pretty tight-knit, studied together and took the same classes all the time.

by GuiA 12y ago

LiweiZ 12y ago

Brain-wise, I think all nations have the possibility to have some top achievers at any given field. It comes easier when the population is larger. The human beings' organizations come with so many system differences such as ways to cooperate, education system. I recommend to think from a system's perspective. If copy is a way to catch up and serve as the basis for evolving one‘s own true strengths (well, true strength here makes the difference), it's definitely a good thing. If copy only brings almost brain-dead repetition, even others can not stop it, it will implode in the end. Sorry to reply with such an abstract content. There are just too many things in my mind to say. So I try to provide some general ideas instead of be very specific. BTW, I do not like taking culture as a dimension of answer, since it's too general and culture is the symptom of an organization. When we talk about culture, we just has to accept the symptom of one organization as is. Hence, it brings us not much information. But it is extremely difficult to have some nice insights for culture we don't have enough context with.

kelukelugames 12y ago

To be fair, how many internationally famous designers does the average person know? Ives and maybe Norman?

userbinator 12y ago

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Chinese do not aim to copy complete designs - they reproduce the aspects that they like, omit what they don't, and then improve upon them with what consumers want. It's a very practical and pragmatic way to innovate. A lot of Chinese like the "Apple style", in terms of appearance, but not the price nor lock-in. This is why cloners have been successful in producing iPhone-lookalikes with removable batteries, dual SIM, expandable storage, larger displays, microUSB, and Android (look at e.g. the Jiayu G5) - the users are not after the complete Apple experience, they just want something that looks like an iPhone with all the standard features found on many other handsets that a real iPhone doesn't have. Also, the concept of vendor lock-in doesn't take hold as easily in a culture where copying is the norm - attempts to create new, incompatible proprietary standards will either fail if there is no significant advantage (the users will just avoid your product), or if there is a clear advantage, everyone else will soon have copied it. Some will say this limits innovation but I see it more as innovation happening slowly and more naturally to meet user's needs, as opposed to being forced.

crdoconnor 12y ago

>There's definitely a cultural thing at play This is not a cultural thing. It's just a stage in the country's industrial development. Once upon a time (when most people on HN were not alive) Japan was the country that rolled out cheap knock offs. Then, once they became good enough at it, they graduated to the stage of out-innovating the industries they were previously rolling out cheap knock offs for. Many western countries including America followed the same cycle during the industrial revolution(s). >That being said, I think it's a losing strategy in the long run for consumer devices manufacturers It's not a long run strategy for China any more than it was for Japan. It's not even a strategy, really - it's more of a "market configuration", actually. Chinese companies have a currency advantage but less capital and brand equity available to take riskier (innovative) gambles. So it makes sense to go the cheap knockoff route. Once they have brand equity, capital reserves and have lost their currency advantage they will out-innovate or they will die. They're already a long way along this road. A "Xiaomi" would never have happened 5 years ago. The idea that a Chinese company could rival the industrial design of an Apple phone was seen as something close to laughable. 10 years ago they could barely even consider designing a smartphone at all.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

CAFA (Central Academy of Fine Arts) near my apartment has a decent industrial design department. Chinese companies are also willing to employ international talent, and competition for jobs in the field of industrial design is tight enough that they have no problem filling those roles decently (too many kids what to be Ives).

msie 12y ago

whereas I remember in grad school, all the chinese students would group up together before class and cross-check their answers with one another. I remember in school all the engineering students would group up together before class and cross-check their answers with one another. It makes sense to me. They were pretty tight-knit, studied together and took the same classes all the time.