6 ms·

Many of the best jobs in areas such as technology, design and finance are on the coasts. No doubt that costs are lower in the middle of the country, but pay is

Many of the best jobs in areas such as technology, design and finance are on the coasts. No doubt that costs are lower in the middle of the country, but pay is also substantially lower. I wonder why more top companies don't try to take advantage of the cost savings of setting up in middle America vs. outsourcing jobs abroad?

ojbyrne 12y ago
There's lots of "near sourcing" too - outsourcing jobs to companies in parts of the country with lower cost of living.
- _upvotes_ 12y ago
  Austin is big on that.
ktothemc 12y ago
They do. http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/10/silicon-valleys-real-estate-crunch-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-other-american-cities/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/10/silicon-valleys-real-estate... From a broad climate change perspective, is it really so good that SF and New York are contributing to faster population growth in the South/Southwest, where water resources are more scarce? And cities are less dense, facilitating more driving and consumption of gas?
- Thrymr 12y ago
  > in the South/Southwest, where water resources are more scarce? As opposed to the SF Bay area, which has convenient fresh water resources... dependent on dwindling snowpack in the Sierra Nevadas.
  - perrylaj 12y ago
    Just made the trek over 50 to NV last weekend and was shocked how little water was flowing in the 'rivers' in the Sierra Nevada. We (CA) are going to have to get serious about alternative water sources, as the groundwater is going to deplete just as fast as the snowpack at the rate farmers are drilling wells. If we were smart, we'd drop the delta tunnel idea and start investing in desalinization plants, at the very least investing in some test sites using some of the newer desal technologies which are showing promise. That said, the situation is far worse in the Southwest. They don't even have desalinization as a viable option. More on the original topic, I am sensing an increase in entrepreneurial/tech activity in the Sacramento area. No idea if any of it has come from the bay, or if it's all home grown. Haven't found anything stating one or the other, curious though, as startup and living expenses are about half of what they are in the valley.
    - dubfan 12y ago
      > If we were smart, we'd drop the delta tunnel idea and start investing in desalinization plants, at the very least investing in some test sites using some of the newer desal technologies which are showing promise. The surfer lobby has made desalinization plants a political impossibility. I'm only half-joking.
jskonhovd 12y ago
They do. For example, UBS is moving 1,000 jobs to Nashville. http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/08/ubs-to-bring-jobs-downtown.html http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/08/ubs-to-bri... However, These things take time. It's a big risk to move your company to a different place. It's a even bigger risk if you can't hire people in that new place.
fludlight 12y ago
Eventually you will run out of available, qualified local talent and you will need to hire someone from a coastal tech hub. Only most Californians/New Yorkers don't want to move to Salt Lake City, or Oklahoma, or Houston, or anywhere else in the middle. The flag is the same but the culture is drastically different.
- bjt 12y ago
  Doesn't this work just as well in reverse? > Eventually you will run out of available, qualified coastal talent and you will need to hire someone from a non-coastal area. I live in the bay area, but am from Utah originally. A couple examples from my home state: http://www.adobe.com/careers/locations.html#lehi http://www.adobe.com/careers/locations.html#lehi http://blog.ebay.com/ebay-expands-in-utah-with-the-opening-of-its-newest-facility-designed-to-leed-gold-standards/ http://blog.ebay.com/ebay-expands-in-utah-with-the-opening-o...
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    > Doesn't this work just as well in reverse? . > I live in the bay area, but am from Utah originally You just answered your own question.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      So the answer is yes, the coasts will run out of tech talent and need to import it.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  You will never be so short of people that you will have to hire someone from SF or NY. Those places don't have an excess of programmers, they have a deficit, and it's one that is continually resupplied from middle America and overseas.
  - jimmaswell 12y ago
    I'm a countryside area of NY and I get a feeling I'd have to move closer to NYC or something to find programming opportunities
nthj 12y ago
I know Google, Facebook, Apple, and others have been visibly increasing their presence in Austin. Apple was putting up offices across the street from my old apartment complex, and the scuttlebutt was they were adding 4,000-some-odd-employees here over the next few years.
- andrewem 12y ago
  What parts of Austin are those big companies located in? (When I left Austin in 2007 Google had just announced an office, which they closed a couple years later.)
  - bsilvereagle 12y ago
    Typically Round Rock, or right between Austin and Round Rock on 35.
- rglovejoy 12y ago
  Google has an office here in Austin, but it's mostly for sales and marketing. Apple's campus is going to be for sales and customer support, not product development.
  - bsilvereagle 12y ago
    I saw the complex right across the parking lot from a Qualcomm office and thought it was going to turn into a mobile headquarters, oh well.
lotharbot 12y ago
I don't think pay is as much lower as you think it is. I keep in touch with a lot of people in tech from all around the country. Those in flyover country (Denver, OKC, Austin) make less money than those in comparable positions on the coast, but it might be 10% less. Meanwhile their housing costs are typically less than half. For comparison purposes: For the same price as this 800 square foot 1 bedroom condo in SF http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/452-Fell-St_San-Francisco_CA_94102_M22783-99663?row=104 http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/452-Fell-St... ... you can get the most expensive home in my entire zip code. 2800 square feet, on a private lake: http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4845-W-Warren-Ave_Denver_CO_80219_M19491-41245?row=2 http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4845-W-Warr... The net result is that, on a developer salary in a place like Denver, KC, or Salt Lake, you can afford the same luxuries as on a developer salary in SF, and quite possibly more.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- VLM 12y ago
  "and quite possibly more." There's an understatement. This is a problem with recruitment to the coasts. I can't tolerate the hit in the quality of life that moving to Mountain View would require. They offered me like $50K more than I am currently getting, which sounds nice, but to live the same lifestyle with respect to house and school district would have taken at least $100K more per year probably more like $150K more as per my calculations. I just couldn't do that to my wife and kids and they aren't willing to pay enough and they responded with some ridiculous BS about the nobility of poverty which I wasn't buying. There's also the cultural hit. Living where I am, I can afford to travel to and attend any cultural activity I want, even if the locals at my travel destination can't afford it. I went to Ireland a decade ago this year purely for the heck of it, because I can afford it, not living on the coasts. I can take a 90 minute train to downtown Chicago and afford anything there, especially stuff the locals can't afford. That really burns up an old school friend of mine who lives near-ish the stadium but can't ever afford to go given his mortgage payment vs mine. I'm not a big cultural activities guy I only go to symphony and museums like once a year, if that. But it would totally burn me up to move to a coast and be right next to something cool I'd never be able to afford to experience. All I want is an acre of suburban land, a modest size house (not a mcmansion but not a shack), in a mostly crime free neighborhood, in a school district that regularly places highly at the nationals in the academic decathlon (I was on the team in '92 in the same district, and maybe my stupidity is why we only made 4th at state during my year LOL). And the city has 1080 acres of free city parks across about 6 square miles of city (mostly unbuildable river land, but still I googled to make sure). Then there are the county and state parks too. And the lakes with public access. What would a house like that cost in SV, maybe $5M or so? More? It cost me an eighth of a mil here before the housing bubble took off, and a paltry $50K/yr isn't going to make up the balance. I don't think my kids would be able to afford music lessons and tutoring in CA, thats for sure, we'd be lucky to afford a 2 bedroom rental at the income I was offered, despite it being about a 50% raise. (edited to add, if it helps in comparison, my mortgage including prop tax and services is $1100/mo, so offering me an extra pre-tax $1K/week means it would be quite realistic for me to spend $2100/month in CA if I moved there.... I checked this padmapper site and that gets me a 1 bedroom apartment near Stanford? That's the best I can hope for? My whole family living in one bedroom and one bathroom? No thanks guys, I'm staying here on my "landed estate") Jobs are hard to get around here, I admit. Most CS grads probably are pulling cable or at call centers. Pretty much everyone in WI is underemployed except the usual peter principle victims like politicians. But if you make it, you can do incredibly well, better than on the coasts.

ojbyrne 12y ago

There's lots of "near sourcing" too - outsourcing jobs to companies in parts of the country with lower cost of living.

_upvotes_ 12y ago
Austin is big on that.

ktothemc 12y ago

They do. http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/10/silicon-valleys-real-estate-crunch-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-other-american-cities/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/10/silicon-valleys-real-estate... From a broad climate change perspective, is it really so good that SF and New York are contributing to faster population growth in the South/Southwest, where water resources are more scarce? And cities are less dense, facilitating more driving and consumption of gas?

Thrymr 12y ago
> in the South/Southwest, where water resources are more scarce? As opposed to the SF Bay area, which has convenient fresh water resources... dependent on dwindling snowpack in the Sierra Nevadas.
- perrylaj 12y ago
  Just made the trek over 50 to NV last weekend and was shocked how little water was flowing in the 'rivers' in the Sierra Nevada. We (CA) are going to have to get serious about alternative water sources, as the groundwater is going to deplete just as fast as the snowpack at the rate farmers are drilling wells. If we were smart, we'd drop the delta tunnel idea and start investing in desalinization plants, at the very least investing in some test sites using some of the newer desal technologies which are showing promise. That said, the situation is far worse in the Southwest. They don't even have desalinization as a viable option. More on the original topic, I am sensing an increase in entrepreneurial/tech activity in the Sacramento area. No idea if any of it has come from the bay, or if it's all home grown. Haven't found anything stating one or the other, curious though, as startup and living expenses are about half of what they are in the valley.
  - dubfan 12y ago
    > If we were smart, we'd drop the delta tunnel idea and start investing in desalinization plants, at the very least investing in some test sites using some of the newer desal technologies which are showing promise. The surfer lobby has made desalinization plants a political impossibility. I'm only half-joking.

jskonhovd 12y ago

They do. For example, UBS is moving 1,000 jobs to Nashville. http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/08/ubs-to-bring-jobs-downtown.html http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2013/08/ubs-to-bri... However, These things take time. It's a big risk to move your company to a different place. It's a even bigger risk if you can't hire people in that new place.

fludlight 12y ago

Eventually you will run out of available, qualified local talent and you will need to hire someone from a coastal tech hub. Only most Californians/New Yorkers don't want to move to Salt Lake City, or Oklahoma, or Houston, or anywhere else in the middle. The flag is the same but the culture is drastically different.

bjt 12y ago
Doesn't this work just as well in reverse? > Eventually you will run out of available, qualified coastal talent and you will need to hire someone from a non-coastal area. I live in the bay area, but am from Utah originally. A couple examples from my home state: http://www.adobe.com/careers/locations.html#lehi http://www.adobe.com/careers/locations.html#lehi http://blog.ebay.com/ebay-expands-in-utah-with-the-opening-of-its-newest-facility-designed-to-leed-gold-standards/ http://blog.ebay.com/ebay-expands-in-utah-with-the-opening-o...
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > Doesn't this work just as well in reverse? . > I live in the bay area, but am from Utah originally You just answered your own question.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    So the answer is yes, the coasts will run out of tech talent and need to import it.
pessimizer 12y ago
You will never be so short of people that you will have to hire someone from SF or NY. Those places don't have an excess of programmers, they have a deficit, and it's one that is continually resupplied from middle America and overseas.
- jimmaswell 12y ago
  I'm a countryside area of NY and I get a feeling I'd have to move closer to NYC or something to find programming opportunities

nthj 12y ago

I know Google, Facebook, Apple, and others have been visibly increasing their presence in Austin. Apple was putting up offices across the street from my old apartment complex, and the scuttlebutt was they were adding 4,000-some-odd-employees here over the next few years.

andrewem 12y ago
What parts of Austin are those big companies located in? (When I left Austin in 2007 Google had just announced an office, which they closed a couple years later.)
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  Typically Round Rock, or right between Austin and Round Rock on 35.
rglovejoy 12y ago
Google has an office here in Austin, but it's mostly for sales and marketing. Apple's campus is going to be for sales and customer support, not product development.
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  I saw the complex right across the parking lot from a Qualcomm office and thought it was going to turn into a mobile headquarters, oh well.

lotharbot 12y ago

I don't think pay is as much lower as you think it is. I keep in touch with a lot of people in tech from all around the country. Those in flyover country (Denver, OKC, Austin) make less money than those in comparable positions on the coast, but it might be 10% less. Meanwhile their housing costs are typically less than half. For comparison purposes: For the same price as this 800 square foot 1 bedroom condo in SF http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/452-Fell-St_San-Francisco_CA_94102_M22783-99663?row=104 http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/452-Fell-St... ... you can get the most expensive home in my entire zip code. 2800 square feet, on a private lake: http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4845-W-Warren-Ave_Denver_CO_80219_M19491-41245?row=2 http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/4845-W-Warr... The net result is that, on a developer salary in a place like Denver, KC, or Salt Lake, you can afford the same luxuries as on a developer salary in SF, and quite possibly more.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
VLM 12y ago
"and quite possibly more." There's an understatement. This is a problem with recruitment to the coasts. I can't tolerate the hit in the quality of life that moving to Mountain View would require. They offered me like $50K more than I am currently getting, which sounds nice, but to live the same lifestyle with respect to house and school district would have taken at least $100K more per year probably more like $150K more as per my calculations. I just couldn't do that to my wife and kids and they aren't willing to pay enough and they responded with some ridiculous BS about the nobility of poverty which I wasn't buying. There's also the cultural hit. Living where I am, I can afford to travel to and attend any cultural activity I want, even if the locals at my travel destination can't afford it. I went to Ireland a decade ago this year purely for the heck of it, because I can afford it, not living on the coasts. I can take a 90 minute train to downtown Chicago and afford anything there, especially stuff the locals can't afford. That really burns up an old school friend of mine who lives near-ish the stadium but can't ever afford to go given his mortgage payment vs mine. I'm not a big cultural activities guy I only go to symphony and museums like once a year, if that. But it would totally burn me up to move to a coast and be right next to something cool I'd never be able to afford to experience. All I want is an acre of suburban land, a modest size house (not a mcmansion but not a shack), in a mostly crime free neighborhood, in a school district that regularly places highly at the nationals in the academic decathlon (I was on the team in '92 in the same district, and maybe my stupidity is why we only made 4th at state during my year LOL). And the city has 1080 acres of free city parks across about 6 square miles of city (mostly unbuildable river land, but still I googled to make sure). Then there are the county and state parks too. And the lakes with public access. What would a house like that cost in SV, maybe $5M or so? More? It cost me an eighth of a mil here before the housing bubble took off, and a paltry $50K/yr isn't going to make up the balance. I don't think my kids would be able to afford music lessons and tutoring in CA, thats for sure, we'd be lucky to afford a 2 bedroom rental at the income I was offered, despite it being about a 50% raise. (edited to add, if it helps in comparison, my mortgage including prop tax and services is $1100/mo, so offering me an extra pre-tax $1K/week means it would be quite realistic for me to spend $2100/month in CA if I moved there.... I checked this padmapper site and that gets me a 1 bedroom apartment near Stanford? That's the best I can hope for? My whole family living in one bedroom and one bathroom? No thanks guys, I'm staying here on my "landed estate") Jobs are hard to get around here, I admit. Most CS grads probably are pulling cable or at call centers. Pretty much everyone in WI is underemployed except the usual peter principle victims like politicians. But if you make it, you can do incredibly well, better than on the coasts.