11 ms·

Getting rid of burnout permanently

226 points by kentnguyen 12y ago

gboudrias 12y ago
I'm pretty sure burnout is endemic to this industry, if not most of society. It's a good idea to be on the lookout. Don't underestimate the dangers of burning out (they may include losing your passion entirely). Thanks for taking the time to write this article.
danielweber 12y ago
Some companies see their employees as orange trees that they need to keep healthy year after year. Some companies see their employees as oranges they need to squeeze as much as possible.
- YorkianTones 12y ago
  There are doors. There are revolving doors.
  - lightyrs 12y ago
    There are doors that let you in And out but never open But there are trapdoors That you can't come back from
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  Unfortunately, very few people acknowledge what it really takes to keep the "trees" healthy, even if they think they do. A great deal of "progressive" companies assume that a break room with an Xbox 360 and a soda fountain should automatically translate into astronomical employee morale, despite regular overworking and underpaying. How often does a company see its employees as equals? How often does a company try to ensure that the employee's demands and the company's demands are equitable? Most of them mask their blatant anti-employee bias in moralistic language to try to shame people out of asking questions: as one example, if you leave for another opportunity whilst involved in a project, you're considered "disloyal" or "unstable" and guilted, even though a company would shave off a unit in a heartbeat if it meant a major change in their financial prospects. Even companies that claim they understand career progression, work-life balance, etc. often have these problems lurking underneath the glitzy exterior. I say this and people will think, "Yeah, that sucks, but not my workplace!" The reality is yes, your workplace probably has this same issue too. Just think about it for a while. We need to start thinking of employment as a mutually beneficial exchange between equals with equally applicable moral rules. Why should the company keep 90%+ of the revenue an employee generates? Would that fly if it were a partnership deal between corporations? Surely the services of an employer are worth something, but are they really worth that much? The only reason employers can take that much is because employees don't believe they can claim any portion of that revenue without an employer, and they have to take the paltry 2% or they won't be able to get anything, which is usually false if the employee has a marketable skill.
stygiansonic 12y ago
The human body is generally well-adapted to maintaining homeostasis, in the absence of extreme illness and disease, i.e. feeling thirsty when you need fluids, hunger when you need calories and needing sleep when you're tired. However, sometimes external and internal factors can cause us to ignore these basic needs/warning signs. The need to meet a deadline, the need to not let down your coworkers or the need to demonstrate "passions" for your line of work. The first two apply pretty much to any job nowadays, while the latter applies groups that are often expected to show a "portfolio" of their work, such as artists, musicians, graphic designers and increasingly, software developers. All of these demands can easily lead to burnout and a lack of passion, not just tiredness. Feeling tired is one thing, as one usually ascribe that physical causes. But having a feeling of lacking passion can be soul-crushing, as it leads one to question whether one is in the right field of work. This is perhaps the one of the worst effects of burnout and must be avoided. Burnout is the cause and a lack of passion is merely a symptom. Realizing there is much more to life than work-related goals, as the article suggests, is a good solution.
funkaster 12y ago
Here's a crazy idea: work less. Try first with a 40 hour week. Then 35. Just the 40 hour week could probably give you enough time to do other things you want. And make this mental note: if your business needs you constantly for more than 40 hours a week, you're doing something wrong. Your work should be your passion, but it shouldn't consume your life.
- Huppie 12y ago
  I agree with what you're saying but as someone who has had this issue recently but also already works a relaxed 36 hours a week I think the article was pretty much spot-on.
onion2k 12y ago
I agree with the majority of the article, but one thing leapt out - the first question that the author suggests might 'help you to pinpoint your resentment'; Why do you want to take a break, go on holiday? What are you really running away from? Taking a break and going on holiday is not running away from things. Even if you're working on something that you absolutely love, with an amazing team of people, doing something that will change the world - it's still a good idea to take a break. Experiencing different cultures, seeing new things, getting out of your comfort zone, and looking at things from a different perspective is fantastically useful. It makes you see things differently. Going on holiday is a good thing in itself; it isn't merely a cure for the bad things.
- sockgrant 12y ago
  My take was that the author was talking about situations where people say "I _need_ to take a holiday" with the implication that work is too much for them right now. E.g. a holiday for the sake of getting away from a burnout work situation as opposed to a holiday for the sake of experiencing different cultures, seeing new things etc. The former is good and healthy, but in the former you are running away from something.
- trjordan 12y ago
  I think the article exactly agrees with you. If you think that going on holiday will make things easier at work, you're probably wrong. Work is work, and taking a break from it doesn't make it not work. More importantly, if you take a break for a bit, then come back to the same grind, it's still going to burn you out. If you are worried that you're burning out, and you find yourself trying to solve it by taking more vacations, ask yourself, "Why do I want to take a vacation?" You will probably find you want to get away from something (the "wrong" reason), vs. trying something new or doing something different (the "right" reason). Like you said, take vacations that are a change of view (even if that view is just the beach for a week), not to quit missing your Tuesday Night Dinner.
  - kentnguyen 12y ago
    Exactly what I meant. Thank you. While you don't have to agree completely with me, and holiday are always nice. But if you need to take a holiday, then perhaps you do have something on your mind that you want to get rid of.
AVTizzle 12y ago
"The solution is actually quite simple: do what you love and is important to you regularly." Of course I agree - this is near impossible to argue. It's what pushed me into entrepreneurship after realizing I wanted to shape my own work reality if it was something I was going to be spending 40+ hours a week doing. That said, a reality I feel like I'm coming to grips with is that most of my friends working traditional/conventional career paths really don't give a damn about their work. I'm a little skeptical about the idea that this is practical information most people working normal jobs will follow through with (that basically means, quit).
cookiecaper 12y ago
I don't think this article really says anything that isn't obvious. We all know that serious cases of burnout happen because you don't like what you're doing. We all only have so much patience and tolerance for things we dislike. The answer is to stop doing things you don't like doing so much, and do things you do like doing more, and make this a permanent change, not just a two week break before you jump back into the things you hate; that may prolong your tolerance, but you'll eventually run out again. We have to find an equilibrium between the enjoyable and the necessary that allows us to be productive but doesn't make us hate our lives. That's no secret. The problem is that most people don't have many options to change their situation in a significant way -- all they can do, if they're lucky, is take a short vacation and hope that re-energizes them enough to go into another grueling year without having a breakdown. Some of us have to try to manage a constantly ongoing breakdown without disrupting the work that brings in the bacon. If your version of "burnout" is completely resolved by taking a vacation, you weren't burning out, you just needed a short break. In my mind, burnout refers to a larger state of mental exhaustion.
- AnonJ 12y ago
  Not exactly. Many people don't realize the situation at all. And also, there are many ways to find and reserve time for things you love, which are not necessarily related with/constrained by your work at all. People just fall into a vicious cycle so that they gradually forget to do those things altogether, and let things continue deteriorating.
amwelles 12y ago
The only way I've been able to avoid burnout is to be deeply involved in things outside of work. I work a 9-6 front-end development job, but I also teach people how to train their dogs once a week, I write creatively for my own purposes, and I teach coding classes a few times a year. By adding variety and focusing on a few things that are important to me, I don't get burnt out on any of them. It does mean that I'm busy, but I've never felt more stable than I do now. I think having those competing priorities helps me keep the balance that I need to avoid burnout.
- lostcolony 12y ago
  In what context do you teach coding? I thoroughly enjoyed teaching while a TA in college, and have periodically thought I'd enjoy doing it again, but I don't have the inclination to go back for further degrees, nor deal with academia.
  - amwelles 12y ago
    I've been teaching with Girl Develop It. If you have a chapter in your area, I highly recommend it! Both men and women can attend/teach, although its main goal is to promote more women in tech.
    - angersock 12y ago
      Rails Girls is also a great opportunity.
  - cenhyperion 12y ago
    Reach out to local high schools, most these days have some form of CS classes or after school programming activities and love having local professionals come in to teach.
valevk 12y ago
In my opinion and unfortunately experience, burnout is tightly coupled with procrastination. Neither burnout, nor procrastination is classified as disease, though. It is known, that a burnout is a life-management difficulty. [1] To get to my point, the whole burnout process starts with procrastinating. However, the sources for procrastination can be very different. This is where you should fight the problem. If you have depression, get help. If you are lazy, well that sucks. (Sounds easy, I know. It is not easy in real life, I know). But in the end, your own inaction is digging your grave. It's not the break you need. You need a new approach to handling life. Handling life differently. If you keep "only" taking breaks, the burnout becomes a cycle, instead of a one-time exhaustion. And you will go throught this cycle often. The fact that I'm writing this, instead of studing/working, shows that my procrastination problem continues to grow, and eventually enlarging the burnout on the horizon. [1] http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z73.0 http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z7...
127001brewer 12y ago
Why do we work? Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck. Because of these differing work attitudes, you will see some expression of "burnout" (or some other work-related unhappiness). Keeping in mind these differences can help, but it won't solve this fundamental difference within a team.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck. I read Hacker News, and I work just for a paycheck. If I weren't working for the paycheck, I'd expect to have to pay my employers.
cenhyperion 12y ago
I firmly believe that the reason most major religions standardized a sabbath day was for mental health reasons. There's a lot of value to taking a day for yourself in which you do no work. Even if you love what you do, you can't do it for 10 hours every single day for years.
- mattgibson 12y ago
  I've heard something similar suggested as part of the reason for the spread of Islam. 5 prayer-breaks per day where you get to chill out in the shade for a bit is a pretty compelling offer in a hot part of the world. Especially if you are doing manual labour.
normloman 12y ago
Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.
- codingdave 12y ago
  I started to type up a reply about how burnout tends to be project-related, not the norm, but then the more I thought about it... the more your final statement seems 100% true. Why am I trying to rationalize burnout in this industry? Even if I can explain occasional pushes to complete a project, you are correct.
- greggman 12y ago
  I program because I love it. It's my hobby. I quit my job a 14 months ago. 5 months ago I thought of an idea I wanted to pursue. I've been spending 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week on it since then. I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from. Those of us that picked something we love don't see doing it a lot as a negative. We see it as just that, doing something we love.
  - hack_edu 12y ago
    Oh to be young again...
    - greggman 12y ago
      I'm 49
  - rip747 12y ago
    working on your own stuff for 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week is WAAAAY different then working 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week for someone else and not getting compensated. Your comparison is a complete miss.
  - 12y ago
jimbokun 12y ago
"As a software developer, I’m passionate about writing codes and creating new things. However, as I also need to perform managerial duties, I had less and less time to do so. Repeatedly, I had to work for days without writing any useful code for the team, I became highly agitated." It's surprising how hard it can be to find time to just write code, even with a full time job in software development. Meetings. Email. Technical feasibility. Gathering requirements. Testing. Investigating bugs. Various forms of technical support. Architecture and design. Documentation. Time sheets. Reports. Fixing builds and managing dependencies. All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a person.
- abhimskywalker 12y ago
  "All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a person." Exactly! How do you normally deal with these? (Just curious as a still younger developer who has recently left business corporate world (excel etc.) about a year ago to pursue developing as full time at a startup) These are the most frustrating things that start consuming a growing chunk of your time. Writing code for hours on trot to solve problems is always a joy, but when these coding sessions start becoming rare... well you just start hating these hygiene things even more and at times this negativity starts extending to people and other stuff around... Not cool at all. Still looking for better solutions... as these are what i think contribute more towards the frustration and consequently burnouts
  - jimbokun 12y ago
    Occasionally I will block off a several hour appointment on my calendar labeled "Develop Software". Usually works. Sometimes do it for our entire team.
- collyw 12y ago
  Actually I like to code, but I also like architecture and design bit. Sitting down with a pen and paper, working out options for the main algorithms, seeing what looks best. Meetings and emails, not so much.
danatkinson 12y ago
It's odd but sex is not mentioned even once as a legitimate release.
- billmalarky 12y ago
  Isn't that a bit implied with "do what you love or important to you regularly"?
- hcarvalhoalves 12y ago
  It's common sense between many cultures and philosophies that sex drains energy, at least for males.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Another datapoint of common-sense being bullshit.
  - lttlrck 12y ago
    How does it draining energy mean it won't help? And by the way: http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/ http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/
  - MacsHeadroom 12y ago
    It's "common sense" in many cultures that the opposite is true. More importantly, the positive benefits of regular sex have been made evident by virtually every study ever done on the matter.
    - hcarvalhoalves 12y ago
      Stress lowers libido though, so I wonder how one would have energy for sex while feeling burned out.
  - AnonJ 12y ago
    What kind of pervert, anti-human-nature "culture" and "philosophy" you are talking about? Haven't they victimized and taken the happiness away from enough people already? Not to mention that being a Brazilian I suppose you should appreciate the positive value of sex very well?
dsirijus 12y ago
> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days Hm, maybe we call two different things a burnout. I had it twice, one ending in a visit to ER, the other one blasting a single song at max volume for 20h then crying and trying to quit my job. I don't think the author actually had one, at least not by my definition of it. That aside, my main cause of burnouts was working extremely hard on something and not finishing it, for a long time. Or always going after a moving target. Management and goal setting issue, really, and easy one to solve - break huge goals into subgoals, or even - don't have big goals at all.
- throwawayaway 12y ago
  both of those sound like nervous breakdowns.
  - Kabacaru 12y ago
    Which is what a bad burnout is.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      If that's what you want to call it. I always thought of burnout as not being able or not having the desire to continue keeping up the professional pace that you've been keeping over a long period of time. It doesn't have to include any irrational element, or even explode into a cathartic moment to be burnout as far as I've heard it discussed. 'Succumbing to burnout' I get - 'having a burnout' is not a phrasing that I'm even familiar with.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  I would quit my job long before anything like that happened. A psychotic break may be something that burnout could lead to, but I'm sure that that's not a minimal requirement to say you're 'having a burnout' in most people's usage. To be honest, that's just not the way I react to stress. I'm more likely to get a bit of insomnia and be overly critical towards my coworkers. edit: "The term 'burnout' was coined in the 1970s by the American psychologist Herbert Freudenberger. He used it to describe the consequences of severe stress and high ideals experienced by people working in 'helping' professions. Doctors and nurses, for example, who sacrifice themselves for others, would often end up being 'burned out' – exhausted, listless, and unable to cope." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0050545/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0050545/
brador 12y ago
The simple truth is if you're pushing to excel in any competitive field you're gonna have to push yourself to the limit. That's why the startup game is push, make FU money and walk, not build a lifestyle business out of it, because by the time you're done there's nothing left. You've given it your all.
- AnonJ 12y ago
  Read some Peter Thiel and he will tell you that in the ideal startup there should be no "competition" at all. Competition is a horrible and destructive thing. Although, as a fact you have to realize that many people who excel in competition for example professional athletes keep an exceptionally good balance. In fact those at the top of competitions are almost always those who are very good at keeping balance. So your theory simply doesn't hold.
noir_lord 12y ago
Fantastic Article. Three weeks ago I hit absolute rock bottom with exhaustion from working hard for the last 2 years (I worked out I've been working 70-80 hour weeks since Dev 2010 with 8 days off in 4 years). I resolved to get my life sorted out, I cut back work hours drastically, started riding my bike more and went to the Doctors to get help with sleeping tablets and pain management (the last 3 months I've been waiting for a double wisdom extraction) and stopped trying to carry the world and it's problems on my shoulders. Later that week I found in a fairly horrible way that my partner of 7 years had cheated on me and I threw her out. I stuck with the resolution I'd made to keep changing my life. Now I'm sat at work taking a break after writing some really nice code to handle a problem that had stumped me for a month, I'll pack up for the day in a couple of hours then I'm going home to have a shower and going out on my bike for a 45 mile ride then home, netflix documentary and sleep. In the last month I nearly destroyed my business, my health and my wellbeing as well as losing a long term relationship and I'm happier today than I have been in 4 years. I have off moments but I just remember how bad I felt when I was sat at 2am watching the moon wishing everything would end and that they will pass in time. The anxiety attacks have just about gone completely and meditation seems to control the ones that I do get. I've also realised that none of this stuff business, relationship or whatever is worth sacrificing my own long term happiness over, I was miserable for 4 years, no more.
- javert 12y ago
  So what is responsible for this miraculous change? Simply working fewer hours? Sorry to hear about your partner, that is horrible. Best of luck.
  - noir_lord 12y ago
    > So what is responsible for this miraculous change? The realisation that if I don't change course I'm going to either have a complete breakdown or throw myself off a bridge. > Simply working fewer hours? Unfortunately no life isn't that simple though working fewer hours does have a side effect which is it frees up time to do things you enjoy doing, in my case Cycling. Getting out everyday on my bike in the sun (or rain, it is England after all), eating right and getting some quality sleep have all had a marked effect on both my mood and energy levels. The irony is last week I got more done than I would have in two weeks a month ago working half the hours. I'll take 4 hours wide awake and well rested over 12 exhausted and stressed. I'm not entirely there yet but I'm mentally stronger than I have been in a long time.
pskittle 12y ago
This article did strike a nerve esp Meyers quote about burnout stemming from the desire to not be able to do what u love regularly.
enraged_camel 12y ago
The author's theory is that burnout is caused by not doing the things one loves. I have a different, albeit perhaps related theory: burnout is caused by not being able to get in the "flow" for extended periods of time. I can relate to the author's example of having split duties involving coding and not coding, as I'm in the same boat. About half of my week involves developing my company's learning management system, and the other half involves going to meetings about various training activities that are hosted on the system. The latter part is what causes burnout, because the meetings are spread out through the day and totally disrupt my flow. No matter how hard I have tried, I haven't been able to block out large, uninterrupted chunks. As a result, I find myself in these situations where just as I'm about to get in the zone, I get a reminder that says "meeting in 15 minutes!" It has reached a point where I started looking for other jobs. Anyone need a Rails developer? :(
- collyw 12y ago
  Sounds like my situation exactly. Down to looking for other jobs (except I am a Django developer).
ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
Real burnout has you feeling like your brain is empty, and creative work makes your head hurt. Last thing you want to do is look at more code. I actually think this guide is much more accurate: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut
reitanqild 12y ago
Isn't burnout originally something way worse than exhausted and demotivated? Examples: I burnt out once, it left me crying everytime I where alone and took me months to get through the first phase. Anything that reminded me about the old job, e.g. a faulty drive-train, could trigger stomach pain etc. It took 5 full years before I was really myself again even though I studied and had normal jobs during those years. I have seen a couple of friends and colleagues go through the same. One of them was a promising technician who had to leave it. Whenever I read articles like this I wonder if we are talking about the same kind of burnout? (And yes, English is not my first language.)
- DanBC 12y ago
  There is better awareness of mental health problems, and a recognition that early intervention is important.
- cauterized 12y ago
  That sounds more like nervous breakdown than burnout.
- arbitrage 12y ago
  I had a similar experience. I left a very high stress job, and it took me well over a year to stop having anxiety attacks for a job I wasn't even employed at, anymore. I didn't even have a cell phone, and I was getting phantom phone syndrome for at least 18 months. Almost sounds like PTSD.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Yup, as I mentioned in another example, working is a business relationship analogous to a romantic relationship. When one party is passionately in love, is hugely engaged in the relationship, and puts a great amount of work into the relationship (not merely hours but also emotional investment, etc.) while the other party is abusive, absent, disengaged, or what-have-you the result is often eventually severe emotional trauma and the dissolution of the relationship. That's true in romantic relationships, but also true in business relationships. That's what most people don't realize about burnout. It's not merely physical, it's not about overwork, it's about psychological and emotional trauma on the scale of having your heart broken by a dysfunctional romantic relationship.
moron4hire 12y ago
>> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days. That's not multiple burnouts. That's one burnout. That's what burnout is like. It's not a complete inability to work. It's a lack of consistency. I think that's why so many people don't think to do anything about it. They think, "if I just quit being so lazy..." they could get everything done. Clearly, they're capable. And it is clearly not permanent. So the problem must be them, right? Wrong. The problem with lack of consistency and reliability is a feedback loop. If you don't keep to regular, sustainable hours, your body will take up the deficit later. Your mean productivity is basically set, it's your standard deviation that you can control. So, you either work really hard now and have everyone freak out that you're not being as productive as they've come to expect out of you. Or you just not establish an expectation of being hyperproductive in short bursts. To overuse a metaphor: you don't win a marathon in the first 100 meters.
phazmatis 12y ago
Interesting article. I think burnout can be caused by a number of things, but I don't think everyone has a different burnout trigger. When faced with non-ideal conditions/expectations, burnout is inevitable. Sone people can cope with different burnout causes better than others, but if, say, your work is soul-scorching then it'll eventually get to you.
autism_hurts 12y ago
If you don't have the following utterly optimized: - Nutrition - Exercise - Friends (Support Network) The above will continue to happen. Get healthy, get a tribe. It's not HN, by the way.
- bduerst 12y ago
  "Get a tribe" is some of the best advice that can be had. I think many people have this misconception that humans have "evolved" with technology, but in reality we're not that different than our plain-dwelling ancestors. Sure we have better medicine and more gadgets, but we still have a strong, subconscious social desire to belong to a group of like-minded humans. If you don't have a tribe, it's a good idea to find one.
  - autism_hurts 12y ago
    Agreed. This is what Crossfit did for me, believe it or not. A group of well-adjusted, healthy people united by shared misery (sacrifice) who meet every day of the week for an hour or so. They're some of my best friends. It doesn't need to be Crossfit; it can be a user group, LAN gaming, cooking classes, rotary, biking, climbing, MAKER fair stuff, etc. Just get out there and talk and share.
swayvil 12y ago
I was writing code for this company. Had burnout. Couldn't concentrate. Like something was broken in my head. Tried. Couldn't. Stopped trying. Then tried some more. Then floated in a haze between trying and not-trying. Started having really bad dreams. Would wake up, run down the road freaked out. Hallucinating. Quit my job of course. I'm not stupid.
Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago
"how to deal with burnout more effective" - That's the key. I have noted that my burnout often comes from situation, where I constantly feel that I'm not doing enough. Reason for that is that you should do everything and always optimize to maximum and be efficient. Things get fixed when you accept, that it's ok to lazily get to work, do something, if you feel like it, if you don't then don't. Then wonder home enjoying the world, it might take hours. Eat something, watch soap opera and go to sleep. - Suddenly you can feel happy, and not burned out at all. Need to be effective and performing well is the ultimate trap.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
AnonJ 12y ago
Personally I think he exactly hit the spot. A few years ago I regularly did things that I loved so I was achieving in various aspects and feeling happy although doing a lot. But later some interpersonal relationships went awry, the habit was broken and my life descended into a mess, without myself really realizing it. These two years I’ve been doing much less yet feeling much more burnt out and ineffective than I previously was, indeed because I have been kept from those regular things that I love for too long. Unfortunately I didn’t realize it in the beginning and probably even have already forgotten about it gradually. His wording of “epiphany” is exact. Also, I think many of you here are simply misinterpreting what he means. Why something you love and is important to you have to be something in your work? Just as he himself says, he sets multiple rewards for himself, daily, weekly, monthly. Where does he say that they are work-related at all?

226 points by kentnguyen 12y ago

I'm pretty sure burnout is endemic to this industry, if not most of society. It's a good idea to be on the lookout. Don't underestimate the dangers of burning out (they may include losing your passion entirely). Thanks for taking the time to write this article.

danielweber 12y ago

Some companies see their employees as orange trees that they need to keep healthy year after year. Some companies see their employees as oranges they need to squeeze as much as possible.

YorkianTones 12y ago
There are doors. There are revolving doors.
- lightyrs 12y ago
  There are doors that let you in And out but never open But there are trapdoors That you can't come back from
cookiecaper 12y ago
Unfortunately, very few people acknowledge what it really takes to keep the "trees" healthy, even if they think they do. A great deal of "progressive" companies assume that a break room with an Xbox 360 and a soda fountain should automatically translate into astronomical employee morale, despite regular overworking and underpaying. How often does a company see its employees as equals? How often does a company try to ensure that the employee's demands and the company's demands are equitable? Most of them mask their blatant anti-employee bias in moralistic language to try to shame people out of asking questions: as one example, if you leave for another opportunity whilst involved in a project, you're considered "disloyal" or "unstable" and guilted, even though a company would shave off a unit in a heartbeat if it meant a major change in their financial prospects. Even companies that claim they understand career progression, work-life balance, etc. often have these problems lurking underneath the glitzy exterior. I say this and people will think, "Yeah, that sucks, but not my workplace!" The reality is yes, your workplace probably has this same issue too. Just think about it for a while. We need to start thinking of employment as a mutually beneficial exchange between equals with equally applicable moral rules. Why should the company keep 90%+ of the revenue an employee generates? Would that fly if it were a partnership deal between corporations? Surely the services of an employer are worth something, but are they really worth that much? The only reason employers can take that much is because employees don't believe they can claim any portion of that revenue without an employer, and they have to take the paltry 2% or they won't be able to get anything, which is usually false if the employee has a marketable skill.

stygiansonic 12y ago

The human body is generally well-adapted to maintaining homeostasis, in the absence of extreme illness and disease, i.e. feeling thirsty when you need fluids, hunger when you need calories and needing sleep when you're tired. However, sometimes external and internal factors can cause us to ignore these basic needs/warning signs. The need to meet a deadline, the need to not let down your coworkers or the need to demonstrate "passions" for your line of work. The first two apply pretty much to any job nowadays, while the latter applies groups that are often expected to show a "portfolio" of their work, such as artists, musicians, graphic designers and increasingly, software developers. All of these demands can easily lead to burnout and a lack of passion, not just tiredness. Feeling tired is one thing, as one usually ascribe that physical causes. But having a feeling of lacking passion can be soul-crushing, as it leads one to question whether one is in the right field of work. This is perhaps the one of the worst effects of burnout and must be avoided. Burnout is the cause and a lack of passion is merely a symptom. Realizing there is much more to life than work-related goals, as the article suggests, is a good solution.

funkaster 12y ago

Here's a crazy idea: work less. Try first with a 40 hour week. Then 35. Just the 40 hour week could probably give you enough time to do other things you want. And make this mental note: if your business needs you constantly for more than 40 hours a week, you're doing something wrong. Your work should be your passion, but it shouldn't consume your life.

Huppie 12y ago
I agree with what you're saying but as someone who has had this issue recently but also already works a relaxed 36 hours a week I think the article was pretty much spot-on.

onion2k 12y ago

I agree with the majority of the article, but one thing leapt out - the first question that the author suggests might 'help you to pinpoint your resentment'; Why do you want to take a break, go on holiday? What are you really running away from? Taking a break and going on holiday is not running away from things. Even if you're working on something that you absolutely love, with an amazing team of people, doing something that will change the world - it's still a good idea to take a break. Experiencing different cultures, seeing new things, getting out of your comfort zone, and looking at things from a different perspective is fantastically useful. It makes you see things differently. Going on holiday is a good thing in itself; it isn't merely a cure for the bad things.

sockgrant 12y ago
My take was that the author was talking about situations where people say "I _need_ to take a holiday" with the implication that work is too much for them right now. E.g. a holiday for the sake of getting away from a burnout work situation as opposed to a holiday for the sake of experiencing different cultures, seeing new things etc. The former is good and healthy, but in the former you are running away from something.
trjordan 12y ago
I think the article exactly agrees with you. If you think that going on holiday will make things easier at work, you're probably wrong. Work is work, and taking a break from it doesn't make it not work. More importantly, if you take a break for a bit, then come back to the same grind, it's still going to burn you out. If you are worried that you're burning out, and you find yourself trying to solve it by taking more vacations, ask yourself, "Why do I want to take a vacation?" You will probably find you want to get away from something (the "wrong" reason), vs. trying something new or doing something different (the "right" reason). Like you said, take vacations that are a change of view (even if that view is just the beach for a week), not to quit missing your Tuesday Night Dinner.
- kentnguyen 12y ago
  Exactly what I meant. Thank you. While you don't have to agree completely with me, and holiday are always nice. But if you need to take a holiday, then perhaps you do have something on your mind that you want to get rid of.

AVTizzle 12y ago

"The solution is actually quite simple: do what you love and is important to you regularly." Of course I agree - this is near impossible to argue. It's what pushed me into entrepreneurship after realizing I wanted to shape my own work reality if it was something I was going to be spending 40+ hours a week doing. That said, a reality I feel like I'm coming to grips with is that most of my friends working traditional/conventional career paths really don't give a damn about their work. I'm a little skeptical about the idea that this is practical information most people working normal jobs will follow through with (that basically means, quit).

cookiecaper 12y ago

I don't think this article really says anything that isn't obvious. We all know that serious cases of burnout happen because you don't like what you're doing. We all only have so much patience and tolerance for things we dislike. The answer is to stop doing things you don't like doing so much, and do things you do like doing more, and make this a permanent change, not just a two week break before you jump back into the things you hate; that may prolong your tolerance, but you'll eventually run out again. We have to find an equilibrium between the enjoyable and the necessary that allows us to be productive but doesn't make us hate our lives. That's no secret. The problem is that most people don't have many options to change their situation in a significant way -- all they can do, if they're lucky, is take a short vacation and hope that re-energizes them enough to go into another grueling year without having a breakdown. Some of us have to try to manage a constantly ongoing breakdown without disrupting the work that brings in the bacon. If your version of "burnout" is completely resolved by taking a vacation, you weren't burning out, you just needed a short break. In my mind, burnout refers to a larger state of mental exhaustion.

AnonJ 12y ago
Not exactly. Many people don't realize the situation at all. And also, there are many ways to find and reserve time for things you love, which are not necessarily related with/constrained by your work at all. People just fall into a vicious cycle so that they gradually forget to do those things altogether, and let things continue deteriorating.

amwelles 12y ago

The only way I've been able to avoid burnout is to be deeply involved in things outside of work. I work a 9-6 front-end development job, but I also teach people how to train their dogs once a week, I write creatively for my own purposes, and I teach coding classes a few times a year. By adding variety and focusing on a few things that are important to me, I don't get burnt out on any of them. It does mean that I'm busy, but I've never felt more stable than I do now. I think having those competing priorities helps me keep the balance that I need to avoid burnout.

lostcolony 12y ago
In what context do you teach coding? I thoroughly enjoyed teaching while a TA in college, and have periodically thought I'd enjoy doing it again, but I don't have the inclination to go back for further degrees, nor deal with academia.
- amwelles 12y ago
  I've been teaching with Girl Develop It. If you have a chapter in your area, I highly recommend it! Both men and women can attend/teach, although its main goal is to promote more women in tech.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Rails Girls is also a great opportunity.
- cenhyperion 12y ago
  Reach out to local high schools, most these days have some form of CS classes or after school programming activities and love having local professionals come in to teach.

valevk 12y ago

In my opinion and unfortunately experience, burnout is tightly coupled with procrastination. Neither burnout, nor procrastination is classified as disease, though. It is known, that a burnout is a life-management difficulty. [1] To get to my point, the whole burnout process starts with procrastinating. However, the sources for procrastination can be very different. This is where you should fight the problem. If you have depression, get help. If you are lazy, well that sucks. (Sounds easy, I know. It is not easy in real life, I know). But in the end, your own inaction is digging your grave. It's not the break you need. You need a new approach to handling life. Handling life differently. If you keep "only" taking breaks, the burnout becomes a cycle, instead of a one-time exhaustion. And you will go throught this cycle often. The fact that I'm writing this, instead of studing/working, shows that my procrastination problem continues to grow, and eventually enlarging the burnout on the horizon. [1] http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z73.0 http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z7...

127001brewer 12y ago

Why do we work? Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck. Because of these differing work attitudes, you will see some expression of "burnout" (or some other work-related unhappiness). Keeping in mind these differences can help, but it won't solve this fundamental difference within a team.

pessimizer 12y ago
>Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck. I read Hacker News, and I work just for a paycheck. If I weren't working for the paycheck, I'd expect to have to pay my employers.

cenhyperion 12y ago

I firmly believe that the reason most major religions standardized a sabbath day was for mental health reasons. There's a lot of value to taking a day for yourself in which you do no work. Even if you love what you do, you can't do it for 10 hours every single day for years.

mattgibson 12y ago
I've heard something similar suggested as part of the reason for the spread of Islam. 5 prayer-breaks per day where you get to chill out in the shade for a bit is a pretty compelling offer in a hot part of the world. Especially if you are doing manual labour.

normloman 12y ago

Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.

codingdave 12y ago
I started to type up a reply about how burnout tends to be project-related, not the norm, but then the more I thought about it... the more your final statement seems 100% true. Why am I trying to rationalize burnout in this industry? Even if I can explain occasional pushes to complete a project, you are correct.
greggman 12y ago
I program because I love it. It's my hobby. I quit my job a 14 months ago. 5 months ago I thought of an idea I wanted to pursue. I've been spending 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week on it since then. I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from. Those of us that picked something we love don't see doing it a lot as a negative. We see it as just that, doing something we love.
- hack_edu 12y ago
  Oh to be young again...
  - greggman 12y ago
    I'm 49
- rip747 12y ago
  working on your own stuff for 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week is WAAAAY different then working 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week for someone else and not getting compensated. Your comparison is a complete miss.
- 12y ago

jimbokun 12y ago

"As a software developer, I’m passionate about writing codes and creating new things. However, as I also need to perform managerial duties, I had less and less time to do so. Repeatedly, I had to work for days without writing any useful code for the team, I became highly agitated." It's surprising how hard it can be to find time to just write code, even with a full time job in software development. Meetings. Email. Technical feasibility. Gathering requirements. Testing. Investigating bugs. Various forms of technical support. Architecture and design. Documentation. Time sheets. Reports. Fixing builds and managing dependencies. All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a person.

abhimskywalker 12y ago
"All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a person." Exactly! How do you normally deal with these? (Just curious as a still younger developer who has recently left business corporate world (excel etc.) about a year ago to pursue developing as full time at a startup) These are the most frustrating things that start consuming a growing chunk of your time. Writing code for hours on trot to solve problems is always a joy, but when these coding sessions start becoming rare... well you just start hating these hygiene things even more and at times this negativity starts extending to people and other stuff around... Not cool at all. Still looking for better solutions... as these are what i think contribute more towards the frustration and consequently burnouts
- jimbokun 12y ago
  Occasionally I will block off a several hour appointment on my calendar labeled "Develop Software". Usually works. Sometimes do it for our entire team.
collyw 12y ago
Actually I like to code, but I also like architecture and design bit. Sitting down with a pen and paper, working out options for the main algorithms, seeing what looks best. Meetings and emails, not so much.

danatkinson 12y ago

It's odd but sex is not mentioned even once as a legitimate release.

billmalarky 12y ago
Isn't that a bit implied with "do what you love or important to you regularly"?
hcarvalhoalves 12y ago
It's common sense between many cultures and philosophies that sex drains energy, at least for males.
- angersock 12y ago
  Another datapoint of common-sense being bullshit.
- lttlrck 12y ago
  How does it draining energy mean it won't help? And by the way: http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/ http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/
- MacsHeadroom 12y ago
  It's "common sense" in many cultures that the opposite is true. More importantly, the positive benefits of regular sex have been made evident by virtually every study ever done on the matter.
  - hcarvalhoalves 12y ago
    Stress lowers libido though, so I wonder how one would have energy for sex while feeling burned out.
- AnonJ 12y ago
  What kind of pervert, anti-human-nature "culture" and "philosophy" you are talking about? Haven't they victimized and taken the happiness away from enough people already? Not to mention that being a Brazilian I suppose you should appreciate the positive value of sex very well?

dsirijus 12y ago

> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days Hm, maybe we call two different things a burnout. I had it twice, one ending in a visit to ER, the other one blasting a single song at max volume for 20h then crying and trying to quit my job. I don't think the author actually had one, at least not by my definition of it. That aside, my main cause of burnouts was working extremely hard on something and not finishing it, for a long time. Or always going after a moving target. Management and goal setting issue, really, and easy one to solve - break huge goals into subgoals, or even - don't have big goals at all.

throwawayaway 12y ago
both of those sound like nervous breakdowns.
- Kabacaru 12y ago
  Which is what a bad burnout is.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    If that's what you want to call it. I always thought of burnout as not being able or not having the desire to continue keeping up the professional pace that you've been keeping over a long period of time. It doesn't have to include any irrational element, or even explode into a cathartic moment to be burnout as far as I've heard it discussed. 'Succumbing to burnout' I get - 'having a burnout' is not a phrasing that I'm even familiar with.
pessimizer 12y ago
I would quit my job long before anything like that happened. A psychotic break may be something that burnout could lead to, but I'm sure that that's not a minimal requirement to say you're 'having a burnout' in most people's usage. To be honest, that's just not the way I react to stress. I'm more likely to get a bit of insomnia and be overly critical towards my coworkers. edit: "The term 'burnout' was coined in the 1970s by the American psychologist Herbert Freudenberger. He used it to describe the consequences of severe stress and high ideals experienced by people working in 'helping' professions. Doctors and nurses, for example, who sacrifice themselves for others, would often end up being 'burned out' – exhausted, listless, and unable to cope." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0050545/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0050545/

brador 12y ago

The simple truth is if you're pushing to excel in any competitive field you're gonna have to push yourself to the limit. That's why the startup game is push, make FU money and walk, not build a lifestyle business out of it, because by the time you're done there's nothing left. You've given it your all.

AnonJ 12y ago
Read some Peter Thiel and he will tell you that in the ideal startup there should be no "competition" at all. Competition is a horrible and destructive thing. Although, as a fact you have to realize that many people who excel in competition for example professional athletes keep an exceptionally good balance. In fact those at the top of competitions are almost always those who are very good at keeping balance. So your theory simply doesn't hold.

noir_lord 12y ago

Fantastic Article. Three weeks ago I hit absolute rock bottom with exhaustion from working hard for the last 2 years (I worked out I've been working 70-80 hour weeks since Dev 2010 with 8 days off in 4 years). I resolved to get my life sorted out, I cut back work hours drastically, started riding my bike more and went to the Doctors to get help with sleeping tablets and pain management (the last 3 months I've been waiting for a double wisdom extraction) and stopped trying to carry the world and it's problems on my shoulders. Later that week I found in a fairly horrible way that my partner of 7 years had cheated on me and I threw her out. I stuck with the resolution I'd made to keep changing my life. Now I'm sat at work taking a break after writing some really nice code to handle a problem that had stumped me for a month, I'll pack up for the day in a couple of hours then I'm going home to have a shower and going out on my bike for a 45 mile ride then home, netflix documentary and sleep. In the last month I nearly destroyed my business, my health and my wellbeing as well as losing a long term relationship and I'm happier today than I have been in 4 years. I have off moments but I just remember how bad I felt when I was sat at 2am watching the moon wishing everything would end and that they will pass in time. The anxiety attacks have just about gone completely and meditation seems to control the ones that I do get. I've also realised that none of this stuff business, relationship or whatever is worth sacrificing my own long term happiness over, I was miserable for 4 years, no more.

javert 12y ago
So what is responsible for this miraculous change? Simply working fewer hours? Sorry to hear about your partner, that is horrible. Best of luck.
- noir_lord 12y ago
  > So what is responsible for this miraculous change? The realisation that if I don't change course I'm going to either have a complete breakdown or throw myself off a bridge. > Simply working fewer hours? Unfortunately no life isn't that simple though working fewer hours does have a side effect which is it frees up time to do things you enjoy doing, in my case Cycling. Getting out everyday on my bike in the sun (or rain, it is England after all), eating right and getting some quality sleep have all had a marked effect on both my mood and energy levels. The irony is last week I got more done than I would have in two weeks a month ago working half the hours. I'll take 4 hours wide awake and well rested over 12 exhausted and stressed. I'm not entirely there yet but I'm mentally stronger than I have been in a long time.

pskittle 12y ago

This article did strike a nerve esp Meyers quote about burnout stemming from the desire to not be able to do what u love regularly.

enraged_camel 12y ago

The author's theory is that burnout is caused by not doing the things one loves. I have a different, albeit perhaps related theory: burnout is caused by not being able to get in the "flow" for extended periods of time. I can relate to the author's example of having split duties involving coding and not coding, as I'm in the same boat. About half of my week involves developing my company's learning management system, and the other half involves going to meetings about various training activities that are hosted on the system. The latter part is what causes burnout, because the meetings are spread out through the day and totally disrupt my flow. No matter how hard I have tried, I haven't been able to block out large, uninterrupted chunks. As a result, I find myself in these situations where just as I'm about to get in the zone, I get a reminder that says "meeting in 15 minutes!" It has reached a point where I started looking for other jobs. Anyone need a Rails developer? :(

collyw 12y ago
Sounds like my situation exactly. Down to looking for other jobs (except I am a Django developer).

ulisesrmzroche 12y ago

Real burnout has you feeling like your brain is empty, and creative work makes your head hurt. Last thing you want to do is look at more code. I actually think this guide is much more accurate: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut

reitanqild 12y ago

Isn't burnout originally something way worse than exhausted and demotivated? Examples: I burnt out once, it left me crying everytime I where alone and took me months to get through the first phase. Anything that reminded me about the old job, e.g. a faulty drive-train, could trigger stomach pain etc. It took 5 full years before I was really myself again even though I studied and had normal jobs during those years. I have seen a couple of friends and colleagues go through the same. One of them was a promising technician who had to leave it. Whenever I read articles like this I wonder if we are talking about the same kind of burnout? (And yes, English is not my first language.)

DanBC 12y ago
There is better awareness of mental health problems, and a recognition that early intervention is important.
cauterized 12y ago
That sounds more like nervous breakdown than burnout.
arbitrage 12y ago
I had a similar experience. I left a very high stress job, and it took me well over a year to stop having anxiety attacks for a job I wasn't even employed at, anymore. I didn't even have a cell phone, and I was getting phantom phone syndrome for at least 18 months. Almost sounds like PTSD.
InclinedPlane 12y ago
Yup, as I mentioned in another example, working is a business relationship analogous to a romantic relationship. When one party is passionately in love, is hugely engaged in the relationship, and puts a great amount of work into the relationship (not merely hours but also emotional investment, etc.) while the other party is abusive, absent, disengaged, or what-have-you the result is often eventually severe emotional trauma and the dissolution of the relationship. That's true in romantic relationships, but also true in business relationships. That's what most people don't realize about burnout. It's not merely physical, it's not about overwork, it's about psychological and emotional trauma on the scale of having your heart broken by a dysfunctional romantic relationship.

moron4hire 12y ago

>> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days. That's not multiple burnouts. That's one burnout. That's what burnout is like. It's not a complete inability to work. It's a lack of consistency. I think that's why so many people don't think to do anything about it. They think, "if I just quit being so lazy..." they could get everything done. Clearly, they're capable. And it is clearly not permanent. So the problem must be them, right? Wrong. The problem with lack of consistency and reliability is a feedback loop. If you don't keep to regular, sustainable hours, your body will take up the deficit later. Your mean productivity is basically set, it's your standard deviation that you can control. So, you either work really hard now and have everyone freak out that you're not being as productive as they've come to expect out of you. Or you just not establish an expectation of being hyperproductive in short bursts. To overuse a metaphor: you don't win a marathon in the first 100 meters.

phazmatis 12y ago

Interesting article. I think burnout can be caused by a number of things, but I don't think everyone has a different burnout trigger. When faced with non-ideal conditions/expectations, burnout is inevitable. Sone people can cope with different burnout causes better than others, but if, say, your work is soul-scorching then it'll eventually get to you.

autism_hurts 12y ago

If you don't have the following utterly optimized: - Nutrition - Exercise - Friends (Support Network) The above will continue to happen. Get healthy, get a tribe. It's not HN, by the way.

bduerst 12y ago
"Get a tribe" is some of the best advice that can be had. I think many people have this misconception that humans have "evolved" with technology, but in reality we're not that different than our plain-dwelling ancestors. Sure we have better medicine and more gadgets, but we still have a strong, subconscious social desire to belong to a group of like-minded humans. If you don't have a tribe, it's a good idea to find one.
- autism_hurts 12y ago
  Agreed. This is what Crossfit did for me, believe it or not. A group of well-adjusted, healthy people united by shared misery (sacrifice) who meet every day of the week for an hour or so. They're some of my best friends. It doesn't need to be Crossfit; it can be a user group, LAN gaming, cooking classes, rotary, biking, climbing, MAKER fair stuff, etc. Just get out there and talk and share.

swayvil 12y ago

I was writing code for this company. Had burnout. Couldn't concentrate. Like something was broken in my head. Tried. Couldn't. Stopped trying. Then tried some more. Then floated in a haze between trying and not-trying. Started having really bad dreams. Would wake up, run down the road freaked out. Hallucinating. Quit my job of course. I'm not stupid.

Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago

"how to deal with burnout more effective" - That's the key. I have noted that my burnout often comes from situation, where I constantly feel that I'm not doing enough. Reason for that is that you should do everything and always optimize to maximum and be efficient. Things get fixed when you accept, that it's ok to lazily get to work, do something, if you feel like it, if you don't then don't. Then wonder home enjoying the world, it might take hours. Eat something, watch soap opera and go to sleep. - Suddenly you can feel happy, and not burned out at all. Need to be effective and performing well is the ultimate trap.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

AnonJ 12y ago

Personally I think he exactly hit the spot. A few years ago I regularly did things that I loved so I was achieving in various aspects and feeling happy although doing a lot. But later some interpersonal relationships went awry, the habit was broken and my life descended into a mess, without myself really realizing it. These two years I’ve been doing much less yet feeling much more burnt out and ineffective than I previously was, indeed because I have been kept from those regular things that I love for too long. Unfortunately I didn’t realize it in the beginning and probably even have already forgotten about it gradually. His wording of “epiphany” is exact. Also, I think many of you here are simply misinterpreting what he means. Why something you love and is important to you have to be something in your work? Just as he himself says, he sets multiple rewards for himself, daily, weekly, monthly. Where does he say that they are work-related at all?