6 ms·

exclusive status and 80hr work weeks

by pokpokpok 12y ago

copperx 12y ago
I wonder if any doctor would be willing to get half their $250k for half the work hours.
- nilkn 12y ago
  I spoke with a radiologist once who took half of his $640k in exchange for working only 7 months out of the year (20 weeks of vacation).
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  Physicians working in private practice have that choice. Though the fact that those private practices are going out of business and are steadily being bought by hospitals is probably a sign as to the long-term viability of private practice as a business model[0]. Don't look at the salary of a physician, because not all doctors are salaried, and even for the ones that are, net worth is a much more meaningful measurement. $250K is a little high for some specialties, and it depends heavily on the part of the country. In any case, once you factor in the massive debt from medical school (plus the amount of time that physicians spend making essentially minimum wage while training in residency), the answer is that many doctors can't afford to make much less than they currently are[1]. (Also keep in mind that most statistics you see for "salary" for private practices are really more equivalent to revenue, since physicians in private practice obviously aren't salaried. Oftentimes, these numbers include only some, not all, of the costs of maintaining a practice.) [0] This is a trend that is over a decade old (depending on the part of the country) but accelerated in recent years (before the ACA, though the ACA has also contributed to this trend as well) [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doc...
- Cass 12y ago
  In countries where it's more socially accepted for doctors to work part time, and where half a doctor's salary is a livable wage (i.e. you don't have to pay off half a million dollars of student loans), a ton of doctors do, especially women who want to stay home with their kids. Hell, here in Germany I know a lot of residents who are happy to take half their €48.000 for half the work hours. (I don't envy American doctor working hours, but I sure do envy their salary.)
  - chimeracoder 12y ago
    > (I don't envy American doctor working hours, but I sure do envy their salary.) Once you factor in the levels of debt they have at that point, you may not be so envious: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doc... I can't remember where I saw the statistic, but the number of years it takes for a physician to have a positive net worth after leaving medical school has been increasing dramatically. (This is because debt from medical school and undergraduate have increased nominally, while the expected income of a physician has dropped dramatically[0]) [0] Again, the magnitude of this effect varies by state, but it's a nationwide trend.
    - pcrh 12y ago
      Relative to the income received after qualifying, the debt incurred during training is not so burdensome. That article you linked to cites the average debt of newly qualified doctors as being ~$166,000, and their income averages $270,000 pa., so about 5 months of wages.
      - chimeracoder 12y ago
        > Relative to the income received after qualifying, the debt incurred during training is not so burdensome. That article you linked to cites the average debt of newly qualified doctors as being ~$166,000, and their income averages $270,000 pa., so about 5 months of wages. $166,000 is the average amount of debt upon graduation[0] from medical school. You spend several years training gruelling hours for a pittance as an intern/resident/fellow (3 minimum, but after that you're only qualified for the lowest-paying fields - the highest-paying ones require as much as ten years of training). Even someone who just completed their residency is highly unlikely to make $270,000 (or anything close to that). It takes a long time to work your way up to those sums. A doctor who has paid off his/her debt by the age of 40 is the exception, not the norm[1][2]. It's not unreasonable for a person considering medical school to have to plan on taking about 30 years to pay it off[3]. I don't know about you, but I'd consider that burdensome. [0] http://sls.downstate.edu/financial_aid/AverageDebtofMedicalSchoolGraduates.html http://sls.downstate.edu/financial_aid/AverageDebtofMedicalS... [1] And this is assuming that they got a free ride for their undergraduate degree and didn't have to pay tuition or take out any loans there. [2] http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-long-does-it-take-to-pay-it-all-back.853448/ http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-long-does-it-tak... [3] https://pay.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/17iuse/how_long_is_it_typically_taking_medical_students/ https://pay.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/17iuse/how...

exclusive status and 80hr work weeks

copperx 12y ago

I wonder if any doctor would be willing to get half their $250k for half the work hours.

nilkn 12y ago
I spoke with a radiologist once who took half of his $640k in exchange for working only 7 months out of the year (20 weeks of vacation).
chimeracoder 12y ago
Physicians working in private practice have that choice. Though the fact that those private practices are going out of business and are steadily being bought by hospitals is probably a sign as to the long-term viability of private practice as a business model[0]. Don't look at the salary of a physician, because not all doctors are salaried, and even for the ones that are, net worth is a much more meaningful measurement. $250K is a little high for some specialties, and it depends heavily on the part of the country. In any case, once you factor in the massive debt from medical school (plus the amount of time that physicians spend making essentially minimum wage while training in residency), the answer is that many doctors can't afford to make much less than they currently are[1]. (Also keep in mind that most statistics you see for "salary" for private practices are really more equivalent to revenue, since physicians in private practice obviously aren't salaried. Oftentimes, these numbers include only some, not all, of the costs of maintaining a practice.) [0] This is a trend that is over a decade old (depending on the part of the country) but accelerated in recent years (before the ACA, though the ACA has also contributed to this trend as well) [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doc...
Cass 12y ago
In countries where it's more socially accepted for doctors to work part time, and where half a doctor's salary is a livable wage (i.e. you don't have to pay off half a million dollars of student loans), a ton of doctors do, especially women who want to stay home with their kids. Hell, here in Germany I know a lot of residents who are happy to take half their €48.000 for half the work hours. (I don't envy American doctor working hours, but I sure do envy their salary.)
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  > (I don't envy American doctor working hours, but I sure do envy their salary.) Once you factor in the levels of debt they have at that point, you may not be so envious: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doc... I can't remember where I saw the statistic, but the number of years it takes for a physician to have a positive net worth after leaving medical school has been increasing dramatically. (This is because debt from medical school and undergraduate have increased nominally, while the expected income of a physician has dropped dramatically[0]) [0] Again, the magnitude of this effect varies by state, but it's a nationwide trend.
  - pcrh 12y ago
    Relative to the income received after qualifying, the debt incurred during training is not so burdensome. That article you linked to cites the average debt of newly qualified doctors as being ~$166,000, and their income averages $270,000 pa., so about 5 months of wages.
    - chimeracoder 12y ago
      > Relative to the income received after qualifying, the debt incurred during training is not so burdensome. That article you linked to cites the average debt of newly qualified doctors as being ~$166,000, and their income averages $270,000 pa., so about 5 months of wages. $166,000 is the average amount of debt upon graduation[0] from medical school. You spend several years training gruelling hours for a pittance as an intern/resident/fellow (3 minimum, but after that you're only qualified for the lowest-paying fields - the highest-paying ones require as much as ten years of training). Even someone who just completed their residency is highly unlikely to make $270,000 (or anything close to that). It takes a long time to work your way up to those sums. A doctor who has paid off his/her debt by the age of 40 is the exception, not the norm[1][2]. It's not unreasonable for a person considering medical school to have to plan on taking about 30 years to pay it off[3]. I don't know about you, but I'd consider that burdensome. [0] http://sls.downstate.edu/financial_aid/AverageDebtofMedicalSchoolGraduates.html http://sls.downstate.edu/financial_aid/AverageDebtofMedicalS... [1] And this is assuming that they got a free ride for their undergraduate degree and didn't have to pay tuition or take out any loans there. [2] http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-long-does-it-take-to-pay-it-all-back.853448/ http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-long-does-it-tak... [3] https://pay.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/17iuse/how_long_is_it_typically_taking_medical_students/ https://pay.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/17iuse/how...