6 ms·

I'll go against the grain and say that it's a pretty dangerous article. What it wants you to do, slay false statements and spread what you know, is exactly the

by hibikir 12y ago

I'll go against the grain and say that it's a pretty dangerous article. What it wants you to do, slay false statements and spread what you know, is exactly the kind of thing that goes terribly the minute you fail to figure out what is true and what is false. Very few things in computing are really black and white, but spending our time proselytizing just leads to more thinking in a black and white world, and adoption of technologies that might leads us in the completely wrong direction (Hello Spring!) What we have to tell a young language enthusiast is that there is much insight in ideas different than our own, and that there is much to learn in looking outside of what you consider the best. Maybe there are tools that are better suited for other kinds of problems. Maybe not everyone that disagrees with you is very wrong about things and needs to be converted. I mean, how can you even try to ask people to improve their communication skills, when you say that people that do not think programming is math is because they have the wrong notion of math?! I just don't see how you are going to convince anyone of anything with that level of condescension. Frankly, and being a bit meaner than I should, it seems to me that the reason Haskell can't catch on is precisely that enough of its community thinks like this.

freyrs3 12y ago
> I mean, how can you even try to ask people to improve their communication skills, when you say that people that do not think programming is math is because they have the wrong notion of math?! I just don't see how you are going to convince anyone of anything with that level of condescension. You're projecting a level of condescension onto Gershom's words that just isn't there and makes no sense within the context of the article. His point is that the "debate" about programming/mathematics is largely one of semantics and consists of well-intentioned people arguing from a different set of definitions. I'd hardly consider this to be a controversial statement, much less condescending.
tragic 12y ago
Er, isn't that the whole point of the article? "Every time we learn something new and want to share it, we face these issues all over again -- the desire to proclaim, to overturn received wisdom all at once -- and the worse the received wisdom, the more vehemently we want to strike out. But if we are generous listeners and attentive teachers, we not only teach better and spread more knowledge, but also learn more, and enjoy ourselves more in the process."
lectrick 12y ago
Did you read the same article I read? The article states the exact opposite of what you said, that you shouldn't go around with the goal of "slaying dragons" (slaying what you think are falsehoods) ... Are you sure your clearly preconceived notion about "Haskell People" didn't taint your perception?
the_af 12y ago
(Disclaimer: Haskell fan who is also a complete newbie here). I like what the article is trying to do, but I must admit there is something off about it. Maybe it's me, but I read between the lines something like "you and me both know Haskell is the best language, but try to be gentle with unbelievers and admit that nobody, even Haskell programmers, is perfect. Other languages have some good insights, too." which sounds a bit cultish to me, a bit like teaching a Jedi knight to be humble. A truly open-minded position would have to continually consider that maybe Haskell and its type system are not the best options at all, instead of merely adopting a humble attitude and avoiding aggressive confrontation. Nothing wrong with believing a tool is better than others (I do!) but it makes the article sound a bit condescending... I'm ready to admit maybe I'm wrong and there is no implied presuposition that Haskell is superior in the article :) ---- Re-reading other comments, here is something related to what I've just said. Someone quoted Newton: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." That statement sounds humble (a "humblebrag", some other commenter called it) but carries the implication that you have, indeed, seen further. Maybe the assumption that you as a Haskeller have "seen further" sounds immediately condescending to others who think differently.
- nbouscal 12y ago
  > A truly open-minded position would have to continually consider that maybe Haskell and its type system are not the best options at all There are two ways that I can parse this comment. The first is that you mean that there are other, newer options out there that will turn out to be better than Haskell. This, almost all Haskellers would agree with: most of us have more than a passing interest in e.g. Idris, Agda, Shen, etc. The other reading is that you mean that other established paradigms are better options (A third reading is that there is no such thing as better, but for that I'll just point you to pg's classic Blub essay). This is a good thing to consider once, but I strongly disagree with considering it continually. Once you've made the comparison, if you come to the conclusion that one tool is better than another, it doesn't make sense to continue that comparison forever. It may make sense to revisit it from time to time as you grow in your understanding of the task and the context, but at some point your posterior probability of the other tool being better must grow so low as to no longer be worth investigation. For many Haskellers, the comparison between a Haskell-like type system and dynamic typing is this kind of comparison. My posterior probability of dynamic typing being a better choice is less than one percent, so it makes no sense for me to continue reevaluating that option. If the latter is what you mean, I can't disagree that it is a truly open-minded position, I can only point you to a quote by the inimitable Tim Minchin: "If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out."
BasDirks 12y ago
"What we have to tell a young language enthusiast is that there is much insight in ideas different than our own, and that there is much to learn in looking outside of what you consider the best. Maybe there are tools that are better suited for other kinds of problems. Maybe not everyone that disagrees with you is very wrong about things and needs to be converted." The article says exactly the opposite, but you're too lazy to read.

by hibikir 12y ago

freyrs3 12y ago

> I mean, how can you even try to ask people to improve their communication skills, when you say that people that do not think programming is math is because they have the wrong notion of math?! I just don't see how you are going to convince anyone of anything with that level of condescension. You're projecting a level of condescension onto Gershom's words that just isn't there and makes no sense within the context of the article. His point is that the "debate" about programming/mathematics is largely one of semantics and consists of well-intentioned people arguing from a different set of definitions. I'd hardly consider this to be a controversial statement, much less condescending.

tragic 12y ago

Er, isn't that the whole point of the article? "Every time we learn something new and want to share it, we face these issues all over again -- the desire to proclaim, to overturn received wisdom all at once -- and the worse the received wisdom, the more vehemently we want to strike out. But if we are generous listeners and attentive teachers, we not only teach better and spread more knowledge, but also learn more, and enjoy ourselves more in the process."

lectrick 12y ago

Did you read the same article I read? The article states the exact opposite of what you said, that you shouldn't go around with the goal of "slaying dragons" (slaying what you think are falsehoods) ... Are you sure your clearly preconceived notion about "Haskell People" didn't taint your perception?

the_af 12y ago

(Disclaimer: Haskell fan who is also a complete newbie here). I like what the article is trying to do, but I must admit there is something off about it. Maybe it's me, but I read between the lines something like "you and me both know Haskell is the best language, but try to be gentle with unbelievers and admit that nobody, even Haskell programmers, is perfect. Other languages have some good insights, too." which sounds a bit cultish to me, a bit like teaching a Jedi knight to be humble. A truly open-minded position would have to continually consider that maybe Haskell and its type system are not the best options at all, instead of merely adopting a humble attitude and avoiding aggressive confrontation. Nothing wrong with believing a tool is better than others (I do!) but it makes the article sound a bit condescending... I'm ready to admit maybe I'm wrong and there is no implied presuposition that Haskell is superior in the article :) ---- Re-reading other comments, here is something related to what I've just said. Someone quoted Newton: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." That statement sounds humble (a "humblebrag", some other commenter called it) but carries the implication that you have, indeed, seen further. Maybe the assumption that you as a Haskeller have "seen further" sounds immediately condescending to others who think differently.

nbouscal 12y ago
> A truly open-minded position would have to continually consider that maybe Haskell and its type system are not the best options at all There are two ways that I can parse this comment. The first is that you mean that there are other, newer options out there that will turn out to be better than Haskell. This, almost all Haskellers would agree with: most of us have more than a passing interest in e.g. Idris, Agda, Shen, etc. The other reading is that you mean that other established paradigms are better options (A third reading is that there is no such thing as better, but for that I'll just point you to pg's classic Blub essay). This is a good thing to consider once, but I strongly disagree with considering it continually. Once you've made the comparison, if you come to the conclusion that one tool is better than another, it doesn't make sense to continue that comparison forever. It may make sense to revisit it from time to time as you grow in your understanding of the task and the context, but at some point your posterior probability of the other tool being better must grow so low as to no longer be worth investigation. For many Haskellers, the comparison between a Haskell-like type system and dynamic typing is this kind of comparison. My posterior probability of dynamic typing being a better choice is less than one percent, so it makes no sense for me to continue reevaluating that option. If the latter is what you mean, I can't disagree that it is a truly open-minded position, I can only point you to a quote by the inimitable Tim Minchin: "If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out."

BasDirks 12y ago

"What we have to tell a young language enthusiast is that there is much insight in ideas different than our own, and that there is much to learn in looking outside of what you consider the best. Maybe there are tools that are better suited for other kinds of problems. Maybe not everyone that disagrees with you is very wrong about things and needs to be converted." The article says exactly the opposite, but you're too lazy to read.