6 ms·

China, once again proving that: Cost of healthcare + cost of making "clean air bubbles" for the people that can afford them < cost of actually having clean air

China, once again proving that: Cost of healthcare + cost of making "clean air bubbles" for the people that can afford them < cost of actually having clean air for everyone. Ah, that wonderful free market. Take a big, full lungful of that externalized cost. Don't worry, central government says it won't hurt you!

x0x0 12y ago
hey, republicans need someone to look up to just to pick a recent example off the top of my head, Duke Energy pumped coal ash into a river and may have to pay up to $8k/day (oh noes!) (is $3m even visible in their financials?) [1] Freedom Industries dumped a barely studied industrial chemical into the river supplying drinking water to Charleston due to gross negligence [2]; the state environmental agency fined them $11k [3] eh, I'd go on but this is too depressing... [1] http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/23/3441138/epa-duke-energy-deal-coal-ash-spill/ http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/23/3441138/epa-duke... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Elk_River_chemical_spill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Elk_River_chemical_spill [3] http://rt.com/usa/171612-wvirginia-water-spill-fine/ http://rt.com/usa/171612-wvirginia-water-spill-fine/
icebraining 12y ago
Using China as an example of the ills of free markets sounds like a bad joke.
- bduerst 12y ago
  Isn't China's air pollution from the government-built coal power plants, not the free market?
  - acadien 12y ago
    They also hand out coal burning fireplaces as a social welfare program. I haven't seen any data comparing the sources of pollution so this might be a small contributor compared to the big plants.
  - acadien 12y ago
    They also hand out coal burning fireplaces as a social welfare program. I haven't seen any data comparing the sources of pollution so this might be a small contributor compared to the big plants.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  Actually it is not. In some respect their are probably less regulated and less constrained by what we think are the true "free" market (US). The lack of constraints doesn't come from lack of laws or rules but from non-enforcement and corruption. And, well, nothing says free market like getting the quickest and fastest way to your goal -- bribe your way out, install and control lobbyists, buy up all the competitors and so on. So in that respect one can say they are more free than Americans. (But then again, if one considers the power of lobbying, and revolving doors between industries and agencies regulating then maybe US does have the free-est market of all -- the government is just a branch of each of the large companies). On a side note of "free" markets: I often hear from deluded libertarians "oh man, FDA (or other such govt agency) is so evil, controlling our lives, so ineffective and corrupt it should be abolished, and people know better what it good to eat". That argument is fine and dandy because we know this "libertarian paradise" doesn't exists, so they can argue and compare a fictional (Ayn Rand-ian ?) universe with a real world and then criticize the real world based on it. Which like comparing Star Wars space ships to real world Navy ships. ("My dilithium crystals are 100x as powerful as your 2 nuclear reactors!") My response is usually that I invite them to take a plane ride, not into another universe or the future, but across "the pond" to Africa or any 3rd world country with an effectively non-functioning FDA (or similar agency). Where anyone can sell you anything without any controls or checks or worrying about being punished. Vegetables laced with deadly chemicals but that look good on the exterior. You'll get cancer in a couple of years but good luck finding that one vendor. Things like that. The interesting thing is that these "free market" libertarian paradises exist, except they are always failed and corrupt states and they are pretty terrible places to live in.
  - true_religion 12y ago
    I'd say the Liberarian (capital L) paradise is premised on the existence of easily transferred information about vendors and customers, and people having both the education and agency to make the best use of the free market. I mean pointing at failed states as examples of a libertarian state, is like pointing at the corrupt Italian city-states at an example of republicanism. Just because no good examples exist during this time period, doesn't mean no good examples can possible exist.
josephschmoe 12y ago
The great paradox of this is that it will almost certainly cost China money. Even if you don't care about health, increased sickness and death rates are very bad for business. Even if you don't care about poor people, this will certainly shorten everyone's lives so long as they ever walk outside.

x0x0 12y ago

hey, republicans need someone to look up to just to pick a recent example off the top of my head, Duke Energy pumped coal ash into a river and may have to pay up to $8k/day (oh noes!) (is $3m even visible in their financials?) [1] Freedom Industries dumped a barely studied industrial chemical into the river supplying drinking water to Charleston due to gross negligence [2]; the state environmental agency fined them $11k [3] eh, I'd go on but this is too depressing... [1] http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/23/3441138/epa-duke-energy-deal-coal-ash-spill/ http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/23/3441138/epa-duke... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Elk_River_chemical_spill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Elk_River_chemical_spill [3] http://rt.com/usa/171612-wvirginia-water-spill-fine/ http://rt.com/usa/171612-wvirginia-water-spill-fine/

icebraining 12y ago

Using China as an example of the ills of free markets sounds like a bad joke.

bduerst 12y ago
Isn't China's air pollution from the government-built coal power plants, not the free market?
- acadien 12y ago
  They also hand out coal burning fireplaces as a social welfare program. I haven't seen any data comparing the sources of pollution so this might be a small contributor compared to the big plants.
- acadien 12y ago
  They also hand out coal burning fireplaces as a social welfare program. I haven't seen any data comparing the sources of pollution so this might be a small contributor compared to the big plants.
rdtsc 12y ago
Actually it is not. In some respect their are probably less regulated and less constrained by what we think are the true "free" market (US). The lack of constraints doesn't come from lack of laws or rules but from non-enforcement and corruption. And, well, nothing says free market like getting the quickest and fastest way to your goal -- bribe your way out, install and control lobbyists, buy up all the competitors and so on. So in that respect one can say they are more free than Americans. (But then again, if one considers the power of lobbying, and revolving doors between industries and agencies regulating then maybe US does have the free-est market of all -- the government is just a branch of each of the large companies). On a side note of "free" markets: I often hear from deluded libertarians "oh man, FDA (or other such govt agency) is so evil, controlling our lives, so ineffective and corrupt it should be abolished, and people know better what it good to eat". That argument is fine and dandy because we know this "libertarian paradise" doesn't exists, so they can argue and compare a fictional (Ayn Rand-ian ?) universe with a real world and then criticize the real world based on it. Which like comparing Star Wars space ships to real world Navy ships. ("My dilithium crystals are 100x as powerful as your 2 nuclear reactors!") My response is usually that I invite them to take a plane ride, not into another universe or the future, but across "the pond" to Africa or any 3rd world country with an effectively non-functioning FDA (or similar agency). Where anyone can sell you anything without any controls or checks or worrying about being punished. Vegetables laced with deadly chemicals but that look good on the exterior. You'll get cancer in a couple of years but good luck finding that one vendor. Things like that. The interesting thing is that these "free market" libertarian paradises exist, except they are always failed and corrupt states and they are pretty terrible places to live in.
- true_religion 12y ago
  I'd say the Liberarian (capital L) paradise is premised on the existence of easily transferred information about vendors and customers, and people having both the education and agency to make the best use of the free market. I mean pointing at failed states as examples of a libertarian state, is like pointing at the corrupt Italian city-states at an example of republicanism. Just because no good examples exist during this time period, doesn't mean no good examples can possible exist.

josephschmoe 12y ago

The great paradox of this is that it will almost certainly cost China money. Even if you don't care about health, increased sickness and death rates are very bad for business. Even if you don't care about poor people, this will certainly shorten everyone's lives so long as they ever walk outside.