15 ms·

Free, Worldwide, Encrypted Phone Calls for iPhone

410 points by david_shaw 12y ago

david_shaw 12y ago
Many people are already familiar with Moxie Marlinspike's WhisperSystems because of their Android apps: RedPhone for encrypted calls, and TextSecure for SMS messages. The release of Signal is a pretty big deal for iOS users; previously, we had to consider a paid option like Silent Circle, or a larger corporate option like FaceTime Audio (which isn't really the same). Although I haven't actually used the app yet (it's registering now), the screenshots appear to be a fairly direct port of RedPhone to iOS. Edit: Yep! And it looks like Signal users can make secure calls to contacts with RedPhone installed, too. Very nice.
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  - nnnnni 12y ago
    We're going to need verifiable sources for claims like that.
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      - ChrisAntaki 12y ago
        Subtle marketing.
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      - superuser2 12y ago
        >sitting on a bunch of exploits This is an important point. We waste a lot of breath accusing people of having deliberately planted backdoors, and moving to alternatives that we think are too trustworthy to have backdoors in them. Whether or not the programmers behave ethically, they're still going to make mistakes and write vulnerable code like everyone else, and you'd better believe the security services (and their contractors) are looking for them.
      - Bud 12y ago
        Apparently they're not that secretive, since you know about their internal tech, and you didn't work there and didn't even have an interview. Pardon me for saying so, but your original comment and your responses to various requests for substantiation don't pass the bullshit test. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying you haven't remotely proven your claims to this audience.
        mikevm 12y ago
        Ok, then don't believe me. I'm just going to move on now.
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    - rsync 12y ago
      "We're going to need verifiable sources for claims like that." This entire parent+thread argument back and forth is completely absurd. It doesn't matter whether he has sources. It doesn't matter whether that firm does or does not exist. It doesn't matter what you think of their tech or his explanation or who is who or what is what. Your phone has two[1] completely independent, full-featured computers inside of it, totally distinct from the actual computer that is your phone (that you use) that are completely out of your control, and depending on the model, have up to DMA control over your device. Whisper systems does not solve this. SecurePhoneBlahBlah does not solve this. Moxie Marlinspike does not solve this. If you have a smartphone, you are owned at a deeper level than you've ever been owned before and there is nothing you can do about it other than removing your SIM card. Game over. [1] The baseband processor and the SIM chip itself.
      - foobarqux 12y ago
        Hardening the device itself is necessary but encrypted comms are just as important and arguably more pressing and easier to do. One thing at a time.
      - scintill76 12y ago
        Keep in mind that even without a SIM, the GSM radio is still active[1]. From my GSM-layman perspective, it sounds safer than being in a "trusted" pairing with the network, yet since it's all closed source, you have to wonder if there are magic packets that can own your device just as badly as if you have a SIM in. [1] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/30876/can-android-phone-running-without-sim-card-be-tracked-localized-by-police https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/30876/can-andro...
      - rdtsc 12y ago
        Great point -- that is 101 of any serious security equipment validation. It is not that this software package/app or that card and so on are certified. The whole package from ground up (hardware components down to analog bits, EM emission... up to top level application get certified as secure) has to be. I can't buy some mathematically proven secure software, install it on a Chinese tablet and claim it is secure and expect it to get approved. This is a funny market as some domestic analog components are hard to find today. Micron, I think, makes some but heck most are sourced from China. This makes 'secure' hardware ridiculously expensive. As in $50k+ for switches and routers and there is a whole market specializing in it. Now, one can look at it another way -- some security is better than no security. I can see the argument on both sides. At least if NSA can record my phone calls maybe the local cops can't and so on...
  - gecko 12y ago
    Is there any way you can substantiate any of this? I wouldn't be shocked, but it seems borderline implausible that we'd be getting all this interest in various ways to hack into iPhones physically if you could just dial a number--and I think it also goes without saying that, whether Apple provides official backdoors or no, it has a high interest in ensuring that there aren't any unofficial backdoors for many other reasons (preserving DRM for one example, if you need them to have a selfish motivation).
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      - johnm1019 12y ago
        No one hides from google http://www.haaretz.com/business/economy-finance/1.574805 http://www.haaretz.com/business/economy-finance/1.574805
        Finster 12y ago
        Except, of course, everybody on the deep web.
        lifeisstillgood 12y ago
        I'm fascinated by this idea of a deep web only accessible by the cognoscenti. Presumably if a link slips out then the deep web becomes a lot shallower?
        alcari 12y ago
        Not necessarily, because things like robots.txt will still prevent it from ending up in search engine results.
        feld 12y ago
        I forgot about the part where it's mandatory for search engines to comply with a robots.txt
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  - chmars 12y ago
    That will always remain an issue: Even if someone manages to create a secure app, the software and hardware platform will never be secure. Hijacking a smartphone by only knowing its number on the other hand does not seem realistic too me. So a source for this claim would be great …
    - mikevm 12y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8103873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8103873
      - chmars 12y ago
        I don't doubt the existence of the company, I doubt the hijacking capabilities …
    - mrb 12y ago
      It seems realistic to me. Just send a phishing SMS ("Your bill of $103.54 is due TODAY: http://payments-comcast.net/83954583" http://payments-comcast.net/83954583"), hope the user clicks it, have the webpage exploit one of the numerous iOS Safari vulnerabilities, and you are done. There are tons of vulnerabilities in smartphone browsers: iOS 7.1.2 alone fixed 28 UNIQUE VULNERABILITIES in Webkit (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6297 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6297) 7.1.2 was released merely 2 months after 7.1.1, so at least 3 vulnerabilities are discovered and fixed every week.
  - rdl 12y ago
    It's possible to do this in a staged way -- basically, give me 100k phone numbers, I'll do automated attacks and catch 25-50k of them (old unpatched OSes for which if I had a $5-10mm budget I'd have 0-days ready, phishing, etc.). Then, use the early victims to catch the rest -- hopefully they're admin assistants, HR people, etc. Targeted attacks on the rest. Black bag jobs on the remainder, using legal or extralegal means, based on value of the target. It's not worth bothering to black bag someone who you only want to get the big boss if the big boss is otherwise exploitable. The key is you don't need to have a single exploit which works on 100% of your targets; you can do multiple things.
    - foobarqux 12y ago
      The cost increases dramatically compared to unencrypted comms. Moreover you risk wasting valuable 0-days on targets that may not be worth it.
      - rdl 12y ago
        Plus, risk of alerting the target (which is why targeting hackers is unwise...) I wasn't arguing against encryption tools, just that serious attackers are plausible threats.
  - humannature 12y ago
    You didn't even work at said company let alone interview there, so what makes you claim they can "hijack an iPhone remotely by only knowing a person's phone number"?
  - opendais 12y ago
    To be fair, the stuff you are talking about is targeted malware. The odds of people being actively targeted rather than passively surveilled is orders of magnitude in difference. Everyone is being passively watched at some level, even if it is just for billing purposes. Defense is always about defense in depth. Always.
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    Signal makes it much harder to tap your phone and makes mass surveillance extremely difficult, both of which are still important. But you're right that people need to be informed of the risks they still face.
  - chrismsnz 12y ago
    Does this involve collusion with the telco? IIRC There's a fair amount of baseband-layer stuff that can be done with SMS from a trusted party.
- sarciszewski 12y ago
  Definitely a huge win for Apple consumers. :)
- stevengg 12y ago
  Moxie also made a sailing documentary that is good called hold fast http://vimeo.com/15351476 http://vimeo.com/15351476
  - frandroid 12y ago
    OMG I knew the name sounded familiar. This doc is SO GOOD.
    - scintill76 12y ago
      Funny that a HN member would know his name from that rather than his security work. I guess we're pretty diverse. :) I enjoyed that doc too.
eggbrain 12y ago
It's great that we have more privacy options for phone calls, texts, etc. But we still need a great "Privacy" phone, right? There's been attempts to do so recently (Blackphone, PrivacyPhone), but both have suffered from the same fault: a binary blob for the baseband, something that renders all your privacy moot. I've heard the best recommendation is a tablet + USB LTE dongle, to put some space between the two processors ("firewalling" the baseband processor a bit). Is there a better way than this? Has anyone kinda walked through all the steps neccesary to have a private/"secure" phone? That being said, congratulations to Whisper Systems -- their work on things like TextSecure and Redphone have been awesome. I hope one day they do a Kickstarter for a whole secure mobile operating system.
- sp332 12y ago
  It doesn't render all your privacy moot. It's limited to snooping on what you send over the radio, which is the same as what your cell carrier would have access to even with a secure baseband. (Edit: unless the baseband hacks into the software running on the other side of the radio and exfiltrates data right from your SD card... hm...) What I would like to see is a way to verify that you're connected to a legitimate cell tower and not an eavesdropper.
  - eggbrain 12y ago
    Not necessarily - some processors (Snapdragon, for example) implement the baseband right into the core processor -- it will have more access than just the radios. I'm pretty sure the baseband also has access to the memory as well, right?
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    > What I would like to see is a way to verify that you're connected to a legitimate cell tower and not an eavesdropper. Is there a way for cell tower's to "sign" their announcements cryptographically with LTE?
  - pinkyand 12y ago
    In many/most phones, the radio can access the ram of the device(DMA). the reason is efficient transfer of data, but with that comes the possibility of the radio reading everything inside the ram, including encrytion keys.
nardi 12y ago
Um. Isn't encrypted calling on iPhones already provided by FaceTime Audio?
- therealmarv 12y ago
  I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users.
  - nardi 12y ago
    > I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. "The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1... > And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users. Ah yeah, I thought Signal was only for iPhone, based on the title. Should have read the first paragraph more closely.
    - carbocation 12y ago
      >This product, Signal, seems to only be for iPhones. So it's even more limited. It appears to interoperate with RedPhone, an Android app by the same authors.
    - higherpurpose 12y ago
      You don't know what you don't know - or in other words, have you seen the latest research on iOS surveillance mechanisms? There could be other "undocumented" stuff that makes the encryption of Facetime Audio irrelevant.
    - bdesimone 12y ago
      In the very same doc you quote, they also say of iMessage: "Apple does not log messages or attachments, and their contents are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." Which has been refuted several times.
chmars 12y ago
Why is Signal (the app) free? What's the business model?
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Open source. Donations. https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/bundle/encryption-tools-j...
  - eps 12y ago
    Donations is not a business model.
    - ig1 12y ago
      You do realize charitable giving represents hundreds of billions of revenue for non-profits every year ? - and that's excluding religious donations which are likely to represent an even larger amount.
      - Chronic29 12y ago
        And that is still not a business model.
    - higherpurpose 12y ago
      It is for Wikipedia. Otherwise no open source project has a "business model".
    - cdcarter 12y ago
      There are approximately 1.1 million public charities in the US that'd disagree with you.
    - eps 12y ago
      You can downvote all you want, but you are missing the point. Is Whisper Systems a charity, non-profit or a commercial entity? If it's either of first two, then it would've only make sense to say just that in the About section, because it would alleviate all questions of why their products are free. However if it's a commercial entity, the question remains - how do they plan on making money? And donations is a silly answer. They are a nice bonus, but as any goodwill gestures they are an unsustainable and unpredictable source of money unless there are dedicated people managing it, e.g. organizing fundraisers, campaigns and such. I don't think WS is doing any of this.
felix 12y ago
Curious why this is different than RedPhone - same company, same product(?), diff't platform - why not keep app branding?
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Signal is better branding.
- jmathai 12y ago
  Signal is a much more neutral brand than RedPhone. RedPhone sounds either like an adult network or spying app. At one of the Shuttleworth Foundation gatherings (where all Shuttleworth fellows meet bi-annually) I remember having a conversation about the branding of RedPhone and everyone unanimously agreed that it would hinder wider spread adoption of the software. I'm not sure what all the factors in re-branding were but I remember Moxie agreeing with the sentiment at the time.
  - felix 12y ago
    Makes sense - do you know if they will be re-branding RedPhone on Android? Just curious.
    - lozf 12y ago
      From the linked page: Signal will be a unified private voice and text communication platform for iPhone, Android, and the browser. Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. Shortly after, both TextSecure and RedPhone for Android will be combined into a unified Signal app on Android as well. Simultaneously, browser extension development is already under way.
    - nwp90 12y ago
      Yes. Signal for Android will be coming, apparently, and will integrate RedPhone and TextSecure capabilities. According to the original article, "Signal will be a unified private voice and text communication platform for iPhone, Android, and the browser. Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. Shortly after, both TextSecure and RedPhone for Android will be combined into a unified Signal app on Android as well. Simultaneously, browser extension development is already under way."
clarkm 12y ago
Is anyone else having trouble registering the app? I'm not receiving a SMS validation code.
- carbocation 12y ago
  I also am not receiving the SMS validation code. I'll update when I get (or don't get) the promised phone call (which comes ~4m after they think they sent the SMS). I suspect they're just overloaded by the HN spike. Edit: The app called, offered me a code which was rejected, and refuses to Re-call me because "rate limit exceeded."
  - halon 12y ago
    You will have the opportunity to request another call in about 15 minutes
    - carbocation 12y ago
      Thanks! That worked. Messaging suggestion for future version: set a countdown timer for when they can request another call.
13throwaway 12y ago
Great job guys! I'm a big fan of what whisper systems is doing. Why is this not called redphone though? Does it have different features? Edit: Looks like the article says it is part of a plan to merge redphone and textsecure.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Rebranding, plus they want to combine RedPhone and TextSecure into a single app: Signal. Since they're just now starting on iOS, no point naming it RedPhone now, just to rename it to Signal 3 months from now.
frequentflyeru 12y ago
Next round of Edward Snowden leaks: "NSA created and funded 'open whisper systems' as a way to get people to think their calls were encrypted when in reality calls went straight to the NSA..."
- dm2 12y ago
  Their encryption/transfer method has been public for a while and the app is opensource. From what I've read (I'm not technically savvy enough and don't have enough time to actually study it) it shouldn't be possible for them to read your message even if they wanted to. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. Tor was created by the US
- lasermike026 12y ago
  Open Whisper Systems is fund by the Shuttleworth Foundation. https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/about-us/team/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/about-us/team/
  - acqq 12y ago
    Moxie is a fellow of the Foundation: https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellowship/fellows/current-fellows/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellowship/fellows/cu... But it appears he personally only "helps" Open Whisper Systems: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-should-all-have-somethin... "I help work on Open Source security and privacy apps at Open Whisper Systems" On more accurate side, see also 2013 report of Open Technology Fund which granted 445K USD directly to the Open Whisper Systems in 2013.
- acqq 12y ago
  Not NSA directly but apparently US. Government did fund Open Whisper Systems: "US. Government Funded Your Favorite ‘NSA-Proof’ Apps" http://revolution-news.com/us-government-funds-favorite-nsa-proof-apps/ http://revolution-news.com/us-government-funds-favorite-nsa-... "Radio Free Asia funds many software projects through its Open Technology Fund." (...) "The Open Technology Fund listed Open Whisper Systems as accepting $455,000 in 2013."
eliteraspberrie 12y ago
It would be nice if the server software were open source as well. Call routing information, like all metadata, can only be protected legally not cryptographically. So it's not something I trust to people outside Canada, no matter how much esteem I have for them.
- wyager 12y ago
  > Call routing information, like all metadata, can only be protected legally not cryptographically. In this system. You could, for example, route calls over Tor (with crippling latency). There is no theoretical reason you can't make a fully anonymous audio comms system.
  - eliteraspberrie 12y ago
    There is no such thing as low latency anonymity.
    - lucb1e 12y ago
      Wardriving?
    - ig1 12y ago
      Have one million devices constantly streaming a random stream of data to each other; when a device wants to communicate with another it just swaps the random stream for the encrypted stream. Hence a trivial example of low-latency anonymity achieved through using bandwidth.
      - superuser2 12y ago
        There isn't enough RF bandwidth and batteries aren't good enough to support this.
    - wyager 12y ago
      >There is no such thing as low latency anonymity. At this moment. You are devoid of imagination if you can't conceive of this happening at some point in the future. The concept does not contradict physics.
rdl 12y ago
Why is the App Store application search process so horrible? I agree, "Signal" and "Whisper" are bad things to have to search for, but there's basically no way to enter a simple memorable text string in the store and get the right app. I ended up using a browser on the phone to go to the HN article to go to the right app store link. I can't believe this hasn't been solved.
- wmeredith 12y ago
  Apple has kind of always sucked at search. It's a shame, considering the quality of the rest of their ecosystem.
  - ableal 12y ago
    Word. The other day I typed the correct name of an app into the Apple web search box, no hits. Try Google, first hit straight to the app store. Last month I posted the John Dvorak piece where he suggests Apple should buy themselves some search - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2458892,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2458892,00.asp ; it features an amusing pic proposing DuckDuckGo http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/429429-apple-isearch-mockup-apple-duckduckgo.jpg?thumb=y&width=740&height=426 http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/429429-apple-isearch-mock...
- thefreeman 12y ago
  Perhaps the idea is to encourage browsing? Like how stores like Target and Walmart move things around all the time with the goal of forcing you to explore the store. Regardless I agree trying to find apps through any of the built in app stores is a nightmare, ios, android, and windows alike.
  - graeme 12y ago
    >Perhaps the idea is to encourage browsing? Like how stores like Target and Walmart move things around all the time with the goal of forcing you to explore the store. It's a different situation though. In a physical store, you won't leave the store on a whim. In the app store, you can easily exit if distracted by a text, twitter, etc.
StavrosK 12y ago
I wanted to donate $5 to BitHub using Bitcoin, but Coinbase's overlay doesn't allow you to change the amount (typing a new amount in does nothing). Does anyone know of a way around this? Moxie, if you see this, can you publish some static address we can send funds to as well?
- thecoffman 12y ago
  I used it to successfully donate $5 without issue. Changing the dollar amount seemed to work for me.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Hmm, thanks. It must have been some ad blocker issue, I'll try an incognito window.
mahyarm 12y ago
Next step, no phone number required for accounts!
jtfairbank 12y ago
Congrats Jake and the WhisperSystems crew! :D Can't wait to see you in a few weeks bud.
dm2 12y ago
I wish they had text messaging. I've been waiting so long for this and it lacks the major feature we need! Hopefully it'll come soon. The reason why this is important these days is that law enforcement now has more access (because the technology is cheaper) to fake cell towers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker Many states are denying FOIA requests regarding this spying but there are several news stories from this year of data obtained from these fake "towers" being used in court. They can be put in vans or just be near people or be used at any large gathering of people. I used an Android phone with RedPhone and this Signal app with iOS and it works perfectly. Very well done! Need encrypted text messaging ASAP! They are also saying TextSecure and RedPhone will be merged into Signal. That'll be great! I will gladly donate to this company if they will increase the speed of development. Question: If my phone has a limited amount of minutes and I have RedPhone or Signal and I call someones phone who doesn't have one of these programs, does that use my minutes or does it only use Data (or WiFi)?
- gioi 12y ago
  Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. You'll have to wait to wait a little. I'd bet it will be worth.
- tedunangst 12y ago
  Can a Stingray intercept iMessages?
  - dm2 12y ago
    I'm not sure, I doubt it, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to intercept them. iOS still sends normal text messages to any device that isn't iOS. I use an Android device for the most part and almost everyone I know uses iOS, which means that even if I'm using TextSecure the message will be delivered as a normal text message, which certainly can be intercepted and stored by Stingray and similar devices.
  - pinkyand 12y ago
    IMessages are supposed to be encrypted, so no.
FredericJ 12y ago
Hey, I'm the co-lead developer of Signal. We're looking for help with translations, help us out to bring Signal to as many people as possible: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/signal-ios/ https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/signal-ios/ We also pay per commit if you want to help on Open Whisper Systems projects: http://bithub.whispersystems.org/ http://bithub.whispersystems.org/
- dm2 12y ago
  These seem like incredibly generous payments for such small commits... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/4657891ac2dc5413425316197c8ffdb83f628675 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/ecb6b1cca6c51d0d7db692d333426cc82ff19e59 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/e16cc6d53a6c5c70c6476cc5544a2896f4a86ca4 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... I was going to donate today, but it seems like the donations are being wasted. I work hard for my money and if my donations go towards a trivial (and arguably unnecessary) 2 line CSS change that would really piss me off. Can we donate only to certain apps? I want to see TextSecure for iOS out as soon as possible, I couldn't care less about CSS changes on your website or escaping some readme file.
  - heavenlyhash 12y ago
    It seems reasonable to me. Good documentation is a critical part of a project's success. It's hard and valuable work. And think of it in terms of replacement cost. What would it take for all of these changes to be made by core developers instaed? Every moment we have the core developers working on the crypto while a supportive community takes part in documentation -- at a rate far, far lower per hour rate than I imagine the core developers would value their time if they were contractors -- is a net win, in my figuring.
  - halon 12y ago
    I am also one of the core devs. Actually, none of the Bithub donations go close to being a working wage for any programmer actively working on the repository. We either get paid by grants or are volunteer. Asking us to micromanage Bithub grants for one or two off contributors would only be more work. We went with a "worse is better" strategy with the goal of encouraging people to regularly commit in however they feel comfortable. It's an experiment that we've been pleased with and if you would rather donate to a dev individually just look at who the top contributors are and reach out. We appreciate any support from PRs to Bitcoin to press.
zz1 12y ago
Does anyone know what the userbase of Redphone is? Is it the same as Textsecure (around 10 milions)?
hruan 12y ago
"Signal uses your existing number, doesn’t require a password, and leverages privacy-preserving contact discovery to immediately display which of your contacts are reachable with Signal." How does contact discovery work? What happens when run on a device without a (valid) SIM?
- acdha 12y ago
  It looks like it uses bloom filters for the phone number: isCntactRegisteredWithWhisper calls isPhoneNumberRegisteredWithWhisper: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/contact/ContactsManager.m#L475-L487 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... The implementation is simply checking a bloom filter: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/number%20directory/PhoneNumberDirectoryFilter.m#L60-L63 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... … and the filter is periodically downloaded from their servers: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/number%20directory/PhoneNumberDirectoryFilter.h#L8-L9 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/SignalUtil.m#L108-L111 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... which ultimately ends up at: https://master.whispersystems.org:31337/users/directory https://master.whispersystems.org:31337/users/directory
- acdha 12y ago
  They've blogged a bit about this challenge in the past: https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/
  - hruan 12y ago
    Ah, thanks!
guelo 12y ago
These guys are doing amazing high-quality work. I'm really amazed that they can pull it off with volunteers and donations. There are very few examples of polished front-end apps in the open source world.
autodidakto 12y ago
Please authenticate with something that's not a phone number! I guess that's the simplest for most people (look at WhatsApp), but the reason why I use things like Signal is because I despise cell carriers. I'd like to use this on a (cheaper) non-cellular device (for myself and family members). The Holy Grail of Secure Communications: Group Encrypted Text, Voice, and Video. Right now, Skype gives you the unholy grail, but you get all three (+group). I wish Open Whisper Systems luck.
- dublinben 12y ago
  To my knowledge, Jitsi fulfills your Holy Grail of Secure Communications requirements. It certainly much more trustworthy than Skype.
  - joeyspn 12y ago
    +1, and also uses zrtp
  - jitl 12y ago
    Needs to be quality on mobile too.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      It's all standard communication protocols. You can use any mobile client you want.
  - zeeed 12y ago
    nice. it requires a 3rd party FB, Google, AIM, ICQ, ippi, iptel or MSN account but it says they optionally use OTR. Not 100% secure IMHO but close. Why do they have to rely on a 3rd party for authentication? This still gives (at least, if you manually enable OTR encryption) the connection data to the service providers.
    - sspiff 12y ago
      You can get away with any old XMPP account, provided that your contacts are either on the same network or your network and theirs are federated. This used to be the case with GTalk, but sadly isn't anymore.
supernova87a 12y ago
Maybe a stupid question, but is the app sending this encrypted voice over the cellular channel, or is it making a data connection independent of the phone? Also, on a different point, if I were trying to eavesdrop on someone's conversation, I would probably just try to hack the microphone with a different / already loaded app...
higherpurpose 12y ago
Will we eventually get video calling, too? (especially in the browser version, perhaps by using a more secure version of WebRTC?) Also, I suggest dropping SMS support, and going "data-only" for the new Signal. Or at the very least disable all SMS/MMS stuff by default, and only leave them as opt-in options in settings. Don't even prompt users about it, because most will say yes, without really knowing what they're doing, and that the app will start eating SMS credits without realizing. But really, you should just drop it. I mean look how successful Whatsapp is, and doesn't have any SMS support, let alone an end-to-end encrypted one.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Will we eventually get video calling, too? (especially in the browser version, perhaps by using a more secure version of WebRTC?) Also, I suggest dropping SMS support, and going "data-only" for the new Signal. Or at the very least disable all SMS/MMS stuff by default, and only leave them as opt-in options in settings. Don't even prompt users about it, because most will say yes, without really knowing what they're doing, and that the app will start eating SMS credits without realizing. But really, you should just drop it. I mean look how successful Whatsapp is, and doesn't have any SMS support, let alone an end-to-end encrypted one.
trounce 12y ago
As soon as I registered, I started getting "No Caller ID" phone calls every few minutes from some unknown person speaking Chinese (which I don't speak). This is pretty annoying, to say the least. There doesn't seem to be any way to deregister your phone number? So what now?
alt_f4 12y ago
When the client device is compromised (and we know that iOS is [1]), it doesn't matter how secure the link is. If I were a sophisticated attacker and wanted to listen to your conversation, I could just tap your mic and audio output. [1] https://pentest.com/ios_backdoors_attack_points_surveillance_mechanisms.pdf https://pentest.com/ios_backdoors_attack_points_surveillance...
- alt_f4 12y ago
  At -3, it amazes me why people on here would down vote facts. It's not like you're disagreeing with me - you're disagreeing with reality. Sometimes, the stupidity of people on here is mind-boggling.
n6mac41717 12y ago
I installed it on my iPhone. I'm able to discover and call friends that have RedPhone, but they can't see me. Is that a feature or a bug :P
- clojsure 12y ago
  Hey. Could you please file a bug report at https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues ? We'll try to work with you to fix the the issue. Thanks!
girvo 12y ago
Ahhhh I'm so excited for this, but it's not in the Australian store and I can't change it to US as I have an iTunes Match sub :( Any ETA on when it'll be here?
_uy6i 12y ago
Who is Riddle Quiet Ventures, LLC? They appear to be the "seller in the App Store"
snitko 12y ago
Distributing secure text/voice/video calls app through an app store of any kind is by definition not secure. Give me an .apk
__david__ 12y ago
This seems really neat. I tried it on an iOS 8 device and it hung on the verification screen. Is anyone else seeing that?
scottlocklin 12y ago
"What could possibly go wrong?" I mean, besides the fact that it runs on iphones.
motyar 12y ago
Teligram should add this feature.
- zz1 12y ago
  Telegram should get their crypto straight, publish their server-side code and federate to OpenWhisperSystems federation.
dan_bk 12y ago
How can you trust a product promising privacy when it runs on a closed-source platform (that is further also known to collect data on the user and to be prone to government surveillance)? Real privacy is only possible on platforms that are 100% open-source.
lazyjones 12y ago
Nice try, but pointless and snake oil, since the iPhone is not a secure device. Try building a secure device that users "own" first, then spend effort on building secure services on top.
- nodata 12y ago
  Nice idea, but in the real world you need to create a service that people "use" first, then spend effort on building a secure device.
  - lazyjones 12y ago
    Noone's ever going to build a secure device if people are fed such snake oil and given the impression that they have "some" or "enough" security if they use it.
    - nodata 12y ago
      Security works in layers, and unfortunately consumers want the wrong layer first.
      - lazyjones 12y ago
        The point is, they get 0 security and we should not pretend that they are getting more. We are ripping off consumers if we do, what we think they want is a poor excuse, unless we're just in it for the money/fame/other benefits.
- andor 12y ago
  Software like this is about making mass surveillance more expensive. If you have a backdoor or a remote exploit for a phone, you might still be able to wiretap somebody, but at least all data on the network is encrypted.
  - lazyjones 12y ago
    Apparently I'm fighting windmills here, but encryption does not work on compromised devices. It will be sabotaged and rendered ineffective. Google for DROPOUTJEEP, what makes you think you can keep the encryption code safe from manipulation?
tempodox 12y ago
Could theoretically be nice, if it would actually work.
borando 12y ago
It's refreshing to see the rebrand (RedPhone -> Signal) links security with functionality, rather than with something dramatic/hide-worthy. When your tools are secure, they work for you and not the other way around.

410 points by david_shaw 12y ago

Many people are already familiar with Moxie Marlinspike's WhisperSystems because of their Android apps: RedPhone for encrypted calls, and TextSecure for SMS messages. The release of Signal is a pretty big deal for iOS users; previously, we had to consider a paid option like Silent Circle, or a larger corporate option like FaceTime Audio (which isn't really the same). Although I haven't actually used the app yet (it's registering now), the screenshots appear to be a fairly direct port of RedPhone to iOS. Edit: Yep! And it looks like Signal users can make secure calls to contacts with RedPhone installed, too. Very nice.

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- nnnnni 12y ago
  We're going to need verifiable sources for claims like that.
  - deleted 12y ago
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    - ChrisAntaki 12y ago
      Subtle marketing.
    - deleted 12y ago
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    - superuser2 12y ago
      >sitting on a bunch of exploits This is an important point. We waste a lot of breath accusing people of having deliberately planted backdoors, and moving to alternatives that we think are too trustworthy to have backdoors in them. Whether or not the programmers behave ethically, they're still going to make mistakes and write vulnerable code like everyone else, and you'd better believe the security services (and their contractors) are looking for them.
    - Bud 12y ago
      Apparently they're not that secretive, since you know about their internal tech, and you didn't work there and didn't even have an interview. Pardon me for saying so, but your original comment and your responses to various requests for substantiation don't pass the bullshit test. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying you haven't remotely proven your claims to this audience.
      - mikevm 12y ago
        Ok, then don't believe me. I'm just going to move on now.
        deleted 12y ago
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  - rsync 12y ago
    "We're going to need verifiable sources for claims like that." This entire parent+thread argument back and forth is completely absurd. It doesn't matter whether he has sources. It doesn't matter whether that firm does or does not exist. It doesn't matter what you think of their tech or his explanation or who is who or what is what. Your phone has two[1] completely independent, full-featured computers inside of it, totally distinct from the actual computer that is your phone (that you use) that are completely out of your control, and depending on the model, have up to DMA control over your device. Whisper systems does not solve this. SecurePhoneBlahBlah does not solve this. Moxie Marlinspike does not solve this. If you have a smartphone, you are owned at a deeper level than you've ever been owned before and there is nothing you can do about it other than removing your SIM card. Game over. [1] The baseband processor and the SIM chip itself.
    - foobarqux 12y ago
      Hardening the device itself is necessary but encrypted comms are just as important and arguably more pressing and easier to do. One thing at a time.
    - scintill76 12y ago
      Keep in mind that even without a SIM, the GSM radio is still active[1]. From my GSM-layman perspective, it sounds safer than being in a "trusted" pairing with the network, yet since it's all closed source, you have to wonder if there are magic packets that can own your device just as badly as if you have a SIM in. [1] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/30876/can-android-phone-running-without-sim-card-be-tracked-localized-by-police https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/30876/can-andro...
    - rdtsc 12y ago
      Great point -- that is 101 of any serious security equipment validation. It is not that this software package/app or that card and so on are certified. The whole package from ground up (hardware components down to analog bits, EM emission... up to top level application get certified as secure) has to be. I can't buy some mathematically proven secure software, install it on a Chinese tablet and claim it is secure and expect it to get approved. This is a funny market as some domestic analog components are hard to find today. Micron, I think, makes some but heck most are sourced from China. This makes 'secure' hardware ridiculously expensive. As in $50k+ for switches and routers and there is a whole market specializing in it. Now, one can look at it another way -- some security is better than no security. I can see the argument on both sides. At least if NSA can record my phone calls maybe the local cops can't and so on...
- gecko 12y ago
  Is there any way you can substantiate any of this? I wouldn't be shocked, but it seems borderline implausible that we'd be getting all this interest in various ways to hack into iPhones physically if you could just dial a number--and I think it also goes without saying that, whether Apple provides official backdoors or no, it has a high interest in ensuring that there aren't any unofficial backdoors for many other reasons (preserving DRM for one example, if you need them to have a selfish motivation).
  - deleted 12y ago
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    - johnm1019 12y ago
      No one hides from google http://www.haaretz.com/business/economy-finance/1.574805 http://www.haaretz.com/business/economy-finance/1.574805
      - Finster 12y ago
        Except, of course, everybody on the deep web.
        lifeisstillgood 12y ago
        I'm fascinated by this idea of a deep web only accessible by the cognoscenti. Presumably if a link slips out then the deep web becomes a lot shallower?
        alcari 12y ago
        Not necessarily, because things like robots.txt will still prevent it from ending up in search engine results.
        feld 12y ago
        I forgot about the part where it's mandatory for search engines to comply with a robots.txt
- deleted 12y ago
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- chmars 12y ago
  That will always remain an issue: Even if someone manages to create a secure app, the software and hardware platform will never be secure. Hijacking a smartphone by only knowing its number on the other hand does not seem realistic too me. So a source for this claim would be great …
  - mikevm 12y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8103873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8103873
    - chmars 12y ago
      I don't doubt the existence of the company, I doubt the hijacking capabilities …
  - mrb 12y ago
    It seems realistic to me. Just send a phishing SMS ("Your bill of $103.54 is due TODAY: http://payments-comcast.net/83954583" http://payments-comcast.net/83954583"), hope the user clicks it, have the webpage exploit one of the numerous iOS Safari vulnerabilities, and you are done. There are tons of vulnerabilities in smartphone browsers: iOS 7.1.2 alone fixed 28 UNIQUE VULNERABILITIES in Webkit (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6297 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6297) 7.1.2 was released merely 2 months after 7.1.1, so at least 3 vulnerabilities are discovered and fixed every week.
- rdl 12y ago
  It's possible to do this in a staged way -- basically, give me 100k phone numbers, I'll do automated attacks and catch 25-50k of them (old unpatched OSes for which if I had a $5-10mm budget I'd have 0-days ready, phishing, etc.). Then, use the early victims to catch the rest -- hopefully they're admin assistants, HR people, etc. Targeted attacks on the rest. Black bag jobs on the remainder, using legal or extralegal means, based on value of the target. It's not worth bothering to black bag someone who you only want to get the big boss if the big boss is otherwise exploitable. The key is you don't need to have a single exploit which works on 100% of your targets; you can do multiple things.
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    The cost increases dramatically compared to unencrypted comms. Moreover you risk wasting valuable 0-days on targets that may not be worth it.
    - rdl 12y ago
      Plus, risk of alerting the target (which is why targeting hackers is unwise...) I wasn't arguing against encryption tools, just that serious attackers are plausible threats.
- humannature 12y ago
  You didn't even work at said company let alone interview there, so what makes you claim they can "hijack an iPhone remotely by only knowing a person's phone number"?
- opendais 12y ago
  To be fair, the stuff you are talking about is targeted malware. The odds of people being actively targeted rather than passively surveilled is orders of magnitude in difference. Everyone is being passively watched at some level, even if it is just for billing purposes. Defense is always about defense in depth. Always.
- foobarqux 12y ago
  Signal makes it much harder to tap your phone and makes mass surveillance extremely difficult, both of which are still important. But you're right that people need to be informed of the risks they still face.
- chrismsnz 12y ago
  Does this involve collusion with the telco? IIRC There's a fair amount of baseband-layer stuff that can be done with SMS from a trusted party.
sarciszewski 12y ago
Definitely a huge win for Apple consumers. :)
stevengg 12y ago
Moxie also made a sailing documentary that is good called hold fast http://vimeo.com/15351476 http://vimeo.com/15351476
- frandroid 12y ago
  OMG I knew the name sounded familiar. This doc is SO GOOD.
  - scintill76 12y ago
    Funny that a HN member would know his name from that rather than his security work. I guess we're pretty diverse. :) I enjoyed that doc too.

eggbrain 12y ago

It's great that we have more privacy options for phone calls, texts, etc. But we still need a great "Privacy" phone, right? There's been attempts to do so recently (Blackphone, PrivacyPhone), but both have suffered from the same fault: a binary blob for the baseband, something that renders all your privacy moot. I've heard the best recommendation is a tablet + USB LTE dongle, to put some space between the two processors ("firewalling" the baseband processor a bit). Is there a better way than this? Has anyone kinda walked through all the steps neccesary to have a private/"secure" phone? That being said, congratulations to Whisper Systems -- their work on things like TextSecure and Redphone have been awesome. I hope one day they do a Kickstarter for a whole secure mobile operating system.

sp332 12y ago
It doesn't render all your privacy moot. It's limited to snooping on what you send over the radio, which is the same as what your cell carrier would have access to even with a secure baseband. (Edit: unless the baseband hacks into the software running on the other side of the radio and exfiltrates data right from your SD card... hm...) What I would like to see is a way to verify that you're connected to a legitimate cell tower and not an eavesdropper.
- eggbrain 12y ago
  Not necessarily - some processors (Snapdragon, for example) implement the baseband right into the core processor -- it will have more access than just the radios. I'm pretty sure the baseband also has access to the memory as well, right?
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > What I would like to see is a way to verify that you're connected to a legitimate cell tower and not an eavesdropper. Is there a way for cell tower's to "sign" their announcements cryptographically with LTE?
- pinkyand 12y ago
  In many/most phones, the radio can access the ram of the device(DMA). the reason is efficient transfer of data, but with that comes the possibility of the radio reading everything inside the ram, including encrytion keys.

nardi 12y ago

Um. Isn't encrypted calling on iPhones already provided by FaceTime Audio?

therealmarv 12y ago
I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users.
- nardi 12y ago
  > I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. "The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1... > And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users. Ah yeah, I thought Signal was only for iPhone, based on the title. Should have read the first paragraph more closely.
  - carbocation 12y ago
    >This product, Signal, seems to only be for iPhones. So it's even more limited. It appears to interoperate with RedPhone, an Android app by the same authors.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    You don't know what you don't know - or in other words, have you seen the latest research on iOS surveillance mechanisms? There could be other "undocumented" stuff that makes the encryption of Facetime Audio irrelevant.
  - bdesimone 12y ago
    In the very same doc you quote, they also say of iMessage: "Apple does not log messages or attachments, and their contents are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." Which has been refuted several times.

chmars 12y ago

Why is Signal (the app) free? What's the business model?

higherpurpose 12y ago
Open source. Donations. https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/bundle/encryption-tools-j...
- eps 12y ago
  Donations is not a business model.
  - ig1 12y ago
    You do realize charitable giving represents hundreds of billions of revenue for non-profits every year ? - and that's excluding religious donations which are likely to represent an even larger amount.
    - Chronic29 12y ago
      And that is still not a business model.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    It is for Wikipedia. Otherwise no open source project has a "business model".
  - cdcarter 12y ago
    There are approximately 1.1 million public charities in the US that'd disagree with you.
  - eps 12y ago
    You can downvote all you want, but you are missing the point. Is Whisper Systems a charity, non-profit or a commercial entity? If it's either of first two, then it would've only make sense to say just that in the About section, because it would alleviate all questions of why their products are free. However if it's a commercial entity, the question remains - how do they plan on making money? And donations is a silly answer. They are a nice bonus, but as any goodwill gestures they are an unsustainable and unpredictable source of money unless there are dedicated people managing it, e.g. organizing fundraisers, campaigns and such. I don't think WS is doing any of this.

felix 12y ago

Curious why this is different than RedPhone - same company, same product(?), diff't platform - why not keep app branding?

higherpurpose 12y ago
Signal is better branding.
jmathai 12y ago
Signal is a much more neutral brand than RedPhone. RedPhone sounds either like an adult network or spying app. At one of the Shuttleworth Foundation gatherings (where all Shuttleworth fellows meet bi-annually) I remember having a conversation about the branding of RedPhone and everyone unanimously agreed that it would hinder wider spread adoption of the software. I'm not sure what all the factors in re-branding were but I remember Moxie agreeing with the sentiment at the time.
- felix 12y ago
  Makes sense - do you know if they will be re-branding RedPhone on Android? Just curious.
  - lozf 12y ago
    From the linked page: Signal will be a unified private voice and text communication platform for iPhone, Android, and the browser. Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. Shortly after, both TextSecure and RedPhone for Android will be combined into a unified Signal app on Android as well. Simultaneously, browser extension development is already under way.
  - nwp90 12y ago
    Yes. Signal for Android will be coming, apparently, and will integrate RedPhone and TextSecure capabilities. According to the original article, "Signal will be a unified private voice and text communication platform for iPhone, Android, and the browser. Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. Shortly after, both TextSecure and RedPhone for Android will be combined into a unified Signal app on Android as well. Simultaneously, browser extension development is already under way."

clarkm 12y ago

Is anyone else having trouble registering the app? I'm not receiving a SMS validation code.

carbocation 12y ago
I also am not receiving the SMS validation code. I'll update when I get (or don't get) the promised phone call (which comes ~4m after they think they sent the SMS). I suspect they're just overloaded by the HN spike. Edit: The app called, offered me a code which was rejected, and refuses to Re-call me because "rate limit exceeded."
- halon 12y ago
  You will have the opportunity to request another call in about 15 minutes
  - carbocation 12y ago
    Thanks! That worked. Messaging suggestion for future version: set a countdown timer for when they can request another call.

13throwaway 12y ago

Great job guys! I'm a big fan of what whisper systems is doing. Why is this not called redphone though? Does it have different features? Edit: Looks like the article says it is part of a plan to merge redphone and textsecure.

higherpurpose 12y ago
Rebranding, plus they want to combine RedPhone and TextSecure into a single app: Signal. Since they're just now starting on iOS, no point naming it RedPhone now, just to rename it to Signal 3 months from now.

frequentflyeru 12y ago

Next round of Edward Snowden leaks: "NSA created and funded 'open whisper systems' as a way to get people to think their calls were encrypted when in reality calls went straight to the NSA..."

dm2 12y ago
Their encryption/transfer method has been public for a while and the app is opensource. From what I've read (I'm not technically savvy enough and don't have enough time to actually study it) it shouldn't be possible for them to read your message even if they wanted to. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. Tor was created by the US
lasermike026 12y ago
Open Whisper Systems is fund by the Shuttleworth Foundation. https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/about-us/team/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/about-us/team/
- acqq 12y ago
  Moxie is a fellow of the Foundation: https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellowship/fellows/current-fellows/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellowship/fellows/cu... But it appears he personally only "helps" Open Whisper Systems: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-should-all-have-something-to-hide/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-should-all-have-somethin... "I help work on Open Source security and privacy apps at Open Whisper Systems" On more accurate side, see also 2013 report of Open Technology Fund which granted 445K USD directly to the Open Whisper Systems in 2013.
acqq 12y ago
Not NSA directly but apparently US. Government did fund Open Whisper Systems: "US. Government Funded Your Favorite ‘NSA-Proof’ Apps" http://revolution-news.com/us-government-funds-favorite-nsa-proof-apps/ http://revolution-news.com/us-government-funds-favorite-nsa-... "Radio Free Asia funds many software projects through its Open Technology Fund." (...) "The Open Technology Fund listed Open Whisper Systems as accepting $455,000 in 2013."

eliteraspberrie 12y ago

It would be nice if the server software were open source as well. Call routing information, like all metadata, can only be protected legally not cryptographically. So it's not something I trust to people outside Canada, no matter how much esteem I have for them.

wyager 12y ago
> Call routing information, like all metadata, can only be protected legally not cryptographically. In this system. You could, for example, route calls over Tor (with crippling latency). There is no theoretical reason you can't make a fully anonymous audio comms system.
- eliteraspberrie 12y ago
  There is no such thing as low latency anonymity.
  - lucb1e 12y ago
    Wardriving?
  - ig1 12y ago
    Have one million devices constantly streaming a random stream of data to each other; when a device wants to communicate with another it just swaps the random stream for the encrypted stream. Hence a trivial example of low-latency anonymity achieved through using bandwidth.
    - superuser2 12y ago
      There isn't enough RF bandwidth and batteries aren't good enough to support this.
  - wyager 12y ago
    >There is no such thing as low latency anonymity. At this moment. You are devoid of imagination if you can't conceive of this happening at some point in the future. The concept does not contradict physics.

rdl 12y ago

Why is the App Store application search process so horrible? I agree, "Signal" and "Whisper" are bad things to have to search for, but there's basically no way to enter a simple memorable text string in the store and get the right app. I ended up using a browser on the phone to go to the HN article to go to the right app store link. I can't believe this hasn't been solved.

wmeredith 12y ago
Apple has kind of always sucked at search. It's a shame, considering the quality of the rest of their ecosystem.
- ableal 12y ago
  Word. The other day I typed the correct name of an app into the Apple web search box, no hits. Try Google, first hit straight to the app store. Last month I posted the John Dvorak piece where he suggests Apple should buy themselves some search - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2458892,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2458892,00.asp ; it features an amusing pic proposing DuckDuckGo http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/429429-apple-isearch-mockup-apple-duckduckgo.jpg?thumb=y&width=740&height=426 http://www9.pcmag.com/media/images/429429-apple-isearch-mock...
thefreeman 12y ago
Perhaps the idea is to encourage browsing? Like how stores like Target and Walmart move things around all the time with the goal of forcing you to explore the store. Regardless I agree trying to find apps through any of the built in app stores is a nightmare, ios, android, and windows alike.
- graeme 12y ago
  >Perhaps the idea is to encourage browsing? Like how stores like Target and Walmart move things around all the time with the goal of forcing you to explore the store. It's a different situation though. In a physical store, you won't leave the store on a whim. In the app store, you can easily exit if distracted by a text, twitter, etc.

StavrosK 12y ago

I wanted to donate $5 to BitHub using Bitcoin, but Coinbase's overlay doesn't allow you to change the amount (typing a new amount in does nothing). Does anyone know of a way around this? Moxie, if you see this, can you publish some static address we can send funds to as well?

thecoffman 12y ago
I used it to successfully donate $5 without issue. Changing the dollar amount seemed to work for me.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Hmm, thanks. It must have been some ad blocker issue, I'll try an incognito window.

mahyarm 12y ago

Next step, no phone number required for accounts!

jtfairbank 12y ago

Congrats Jake and the WhisperSystems crew! :D Can't wait to see you in a few weeks bud.

dm2 12y ago

I wish they had text messaging. I've been waiting so long for this and it lacks the major feature we need! Hopefully it'll come soon. The reason why this is important these days is that law enforcement now has more access (because the technology is cheaper) to fake cell towers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker Many states are denying FOIA requests regarding this spying but there are several news stories from this year of data obtained from these fake "towers" being used in court. They can be put in vans or just be near people or be used at any large gathering of people. I used an Android phone with RedPhone and this Signal app with iOS and it works perfectly. Very well done! Need encrypted text messaging ASAP! They are also saying TextSecure and RedPhone will be merged into Signal. That'll be great! I will gladly donate to this company if they will increase the speed of development. Question: If my phone has a limited amount of minutes and I have RedPhone or Signal and I call someones phone who doesn't have one of these programs, does that use my minutes or does it only use Data (or WiFi)?

gioi 12y ago
Later this summer, Signal for iPhone will be expanded to support text communication compatible with TextSecure for Android. You'll have to wait to wait a little. I'd bet it will be worth.
tedunangst 12y ago
Can a Stingray intercept iMessages?
- dm2 12y ago
  I'm not sure, I doubt it, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to intercept them. iOS still sends normal text messages to any device that isn't iOS. I use an Android device for the most part and almost everyone I know uses iOS, which means that even if I'm using TextSecure the message will be delivered as a normal text message, which certainly can be intercepted and stored by Stingray and similar devices.
- pinkyand 12y ago
  IMessages are supposed to be encrypted, so no.

FredericJ 12y ago

Hey, I'm the co-lead developer of Signal. We're looking for help with translations, help us out to bring Signal to as many people as possible: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/signal-ios/ https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/signal-ios/ We also pay per commit if you want to help on Open Whisper Systems projects: http://bithub.whispersystems.org/ http://bithub.whispersystems.org/

dm2 12y ago
These seem like incredibly generous payments for such small commits... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/4657891ac2dc5413425316197c8ffdb83f628675 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/ecb6b1cca6c51d0d7db692d333426cc82ff19e59 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/e16cc6d53a6c5c70c6476cc5544a2896f4a86ca4 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/commit/... I was going to donate today, but it seems like the donations are being wasted. I work hard for my money and if my donations go towards a trivial (and arguably unnecessary) 2 line CSS change that would really piss me off. Can we donate only to certain apps? I want to see TextSecure for iOS out as soon as possible, I couldn't care less about CSS changes on your website or escaping some readme file.
- heavenlyhash 12y ago
  It seems reasonable to me. Good documentation is a critical part of a project's success. It's hard and valuable work. And think of it in terms of replacement cost. What would it take for all of these changes to be made by core developers instaed? Every moment we have the core developers working on the crypto while a supportive community takes part in documentation -- at a rate far, far lower per hour rate than I imagine the core developers would value their time if they were contractors -- is a net win, in my figuring.
- halon 12y ago
  I am also one of the core devs. Actually, none of the Bithub donations go close to being a working wage for any programmer actively working on the repository. We either get paid by grants or are volunteer. Asking us to micromanage Bithub grants for one or two off contributors would only be more work. We went with a "worse is better" strategy with the goal of encouraging people to regularly commit in however they feel comfortable. It's an experiment that we've been pleased with and if you would rather donate to a dev individually just look at who the top contributors are and reach out. We appreciate any support from PRs to Bitcoin to press.

zz1 12y ago

Does anyone know what the userbase of Redphone is? Is it the same as Textsecure (around 10 milions)?

hruan 12y ago

"Signal uses your existing number, doesn’t require a password, and leverages privacy-preserving contact discovery to immediately display which of your contacts are reachable with Signal." How does contact discovery work? What happens when run on a device without a (valid) SIM?

acdha 12y ago
It looks like it uses bloom filters for the phone number: isCntactRegisteredWithWhisper calls isPhoneNumberRegisteredWithWhisper: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/contact/ContactsManager.m#L475-L487 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... The implementation is simply checking a bloom filter: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/number%20directory/PhoneNumberDirectoryFilter.m#L60-L63 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... … and the filter is periodically downloaded from their servers: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/number%20directory/PhoneNumberDirectoryFilter.h#L8-L9 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278f9f21cf91e919b32d118a44884ed79/Signal/src/phone/signaling/SignalUtil.m#L108-L111 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/blob/19ff47e278... which ultimately ends up at: https://master.whispersystems.org:31337/users/directory https://master.whispersystems.org:31337/users/directory
acdha 12y ago
They've blogged a bit about this challenge in the past: https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/
- hruan 12y ago
  Ah, thanks!

guelo 12y ago

These guys are doing amazing high-quality work. I'm really amazed that they can pull it off with volunteers and donations. There are very few examples of polished front-end apps in the open source world.

autodidakto 12y ago

Please authenticate with something that's not a phone number! I guess that's the simplest for most people (look at WhatsApp), but the reason why I use things like Signal is because I despise cell carriers. I'd like to use this on a (cheaper) non-cellular device (for myself and family members). The Holy Grail of Secure Communications: Group Encrypted Text, Voice, and Video. Right now, Skype gives you the unholy grail, but you get all three (+group). I wish Open Whisper Systems luck.

dublinben 12y ago
To my knowledge, Jitsi fulfills your Holy Grail of Secure Communications requirements. It certainly much more trustworthy than Skype.
- joeyspn 12y ago
  +1, and also uses zrtp
- jitl 12y ago
  Needs to be quality on mobile too.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    It's all standard communication protocols. You can use any mobile client you want.
- zeeed 12y ago
  nice. it requires a 3rd party FB, Google, AIM, ICQ, ippi, iptel or MSN account but it says they optionally use OTR. Not 100% secure IMHO but close. Why do they have to rely on a 3rd party for authentication? This still gives (at least, if you manually enable OTR encryption) the connection data to the service providers.
  - sspiff 12y ago
    You can get away with any old XMPP account, provided that your contacts are either on the same network or your network and theirs are federated. This used to be the case with GTalk, but sadly isn't anymore.

supernova87a 12y ago

Maybe a stupid question, but is the app sending this encrypted voice over the cellular channel, or is it making a data connection independent of the phone? Also, on a different point, if I were trying to eavesdrop on someone's conversation, I would probably just try to hack the microphone with a different / already loaded app...

higherpurpose 12y ago

Will we eventually get video calling, too? (especially in the browser version, perhaps by using a more secure version of WebRTC?) Also, I suggest dropping SMS support, and going "data-only" for the new Signal. Or at the very least disable all SMS/MMS stuff by default, and only leave them as opt-in options in settings. Don't even prompt users about it, because most will say yes, without really knowing what they're doing, and that the app will start eating SMS credits without realizing. But really, you should just drop it. I mean look how successful Whatsapp is, and doesn't have any SMS support, let alone an end-to-end encrypted one.

higherpurpose 12y ago

trounce 12y ago

As soon as I registered, I started getting "No Caller ID" phone calls every few minutes from some unknown person speaking Chinese (which I don't speak). This is pretty annoying, to say the least. There doesn't seem to be any way to deregister your phone number? So what now?

alt_f4 12y ago

When the client device is compromised (and we know that iOS is [1]), it doesn't matter how secure the link is. If I were a sophisticated attacker and wanted to listen to your conversation, I could just tap your mic and audio output. [1] https://pentest.com/ios_backdoors_attack_points_surveillance_mechanisms.pdf https://pentest.com/ios_backdoors_attack_points_surveillance...

alt_f4 12y ago
At -3, it amazes me why people on here would down vote facts. It's not like you're disagreeing with me - you're disagreeing with reality. Sometimes, the stupidity of people on here is mind-boggling.

n6mac41717 12y ago

I installed it on my iPhone. I'm able to discover and call friends that have RedPhone, but they can't see me. Is that a feature or a bug :P

clojsure 12y ago
Hey. Could you please file a bug report at https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues ? We'll try to work with you to fix the the issue. Thanks!

girvo 12y ago

Ahhhh I'm so excited for this, but it's not in the Australian store and I can't change it to US as I have an iTunes Match sub :( Any ETA on when it'll be here?

_uy6i 12y ago

Who is Riddle Quiet Ventures, LLC? They appear to be the "seller in the App Store"

snitko 12y ago

Distributing secure text/voice/video calls app through an app store of any kind is by definition not secure. Give me an .apk

__david__ 12y ago

This seems really neat. I tried it on an iOS 8 device and it hung on the verification screen. Is anyone else seeing that?

scottlocklin 12y ago

"What could possibly go wrong?" I mean, besides the fact that it runs on iphones.

motyar 12y ago

Teligram should add this feature.

zz1 12y ago
Telegram should get their crypto straight, publish their server-side code and federate to OpenWhisperSystems federation.

dan_bk 12y ago

How can you trust a product promising privacy when it runs on a closed-source platform (that is further also known to collect data on the user and to be prone to government surveillance)? Real privacy is only possible on platforms that are 100% open-source.

lazyjones 12y ago

Nice try, but pointless and snake oil, since the iPhone is not a secure device. Try building a secure device that users "own" first, then spend effort on building secure services on top.

nodata 12y ago
Nice idea, but in the real world you need to create a service that people "use" first, then spend effort on building a secure device.
- lazyjones 12y ago
  Noone's ever going to build a secure device if people are fed such snake oil and given the impression that they have "some" or "enough" security if they use it.
  - nodata 12y ago
    Security works in layers, and unfortunately consumers want the wrong layer first.
    - lazyjones 12y ago
      The point is, they get 0 security and we should not pretend that they are getting more. We are ripping off consumers if we do, what we think they want is a poor excuse, unless we're just in it for the money/fame/other benefits.
andor 12y ago
Software like this is about making mass surveillance more expensive. If you have a backdoor or a remote exploit for a phone, you might still be able to wiretap somebody, but at least all data on the network is encrypted.
- lazyjones 12y ago
  Apparently I'm fighting windmills here, but encryption does not work on compromised devices. It will be sabotaged and rendered ineffective. Google for DROPOUTJEEP, what makes you think you can keep the encryption code safe from manipulation?

tempodox 12y ago

Could theoretically be nice, if it would actually work.

borando 12y ago

It's refreshing to see the rebrand (RedPhone -> Signal) links security with functionality, rather than with something dramatic/hide-worthy. When your tools are secure, they work for you and not the other way around.