7 ms·

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. (we did include a stat on inter

by sama 12y ago

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. (we did include a stat on international founders, many of which are not white.) i don't think we're playing this on "easy mode", but i'm sorry you feel that way.

jfc 12y ago
Many people deal with both gender and race issues simultaneously. Non-white women in the U.S. are 18%+ of the population (over 1/3 of the U.S. female population). It's easy to think of gender/race as an either or, but for many of us it's a both/and. I've written a book on the subject (diverse women/women of color), and have done a good bit of research in this area which is why I am familiar with the numbers and the issues. Feel free to reach out if you'd like additional information. Edit: This isn't meant to discourage; the post is a good start. Just wanted to provide some information for next time.
_pius 12y ago
it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. Sure, but you clearly didn't call the piece "Gender and Startups" or "Sexism and Startups." Presumably the broader title was chosen deliberately. For instance, I'd push back on an essay called "YC and Startups" if it only mentioned one company in one batch, but with a quick token sentence about other batches. i don't think we're playing this on "easy mode", but i'm sorry you feel that way. What can I say? It's a piece that scores points for "addressing diversity" but only substantively discusses the less controversial, more tractable subtopic of sexism. Excited to read the upcoming, more inclusive posts though.
- sama 12y ago
  we shared the stats on founders born outside the US. it's not a perfect map to race, but it's not a bad one either--there are people of all colors in this YC batch. do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"? i had an early draft titled "sexism and startups", but many people pointed out the last 7 paragraphs apply to racial minorities just as much as women.
  - _pius 12y ago
    do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"? That's the net effect; it's not my place to impute a motive. All I'm saying is that you wrote a piece about sexism and titled it as if it were about a broader topic. And I know that you're usually a sharp, precise writer. I do recognize that none of this is easy and I think it's admirable that you've addressed this (very thorny) topic. You've said that you plan to address the other aspects of diversity as it relates to YC and I'm looking forward to reading about it.
  - incision 12y ago
    >"we shared the stats on founders born outside the US. it's not a perfect map to race, but it's not a bad one either." It's pretty well established that there are lots of people who were born outside the US in tech in general [1] and among founders specifically [2]. Simply noting the same isn't necessarily saying anything. >"there are people of all colors in this YC batch." That's great. Seeing numbers broken out by ethnicity would be a lot more interesting as it would facilitate a more direct comparison to the rest of the recent releases on diversity. 1: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516546/silicon-valley-fights-for-immigrant-talent/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516546/silicon-valley-f... 2: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/immigration-and-entrepreneurship/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/immigration-and...
  - thrownaway999 12y ago
    I've met quite a few YC founders from Europe. They were white, and shouldn't count towards your reputation for diversity.
- harryh 12y ago
  What's the evidence that sexism is a more tractable problem than racism? Just curious...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - gizmo 12y ago
      I'm not sure what you're hinting at with your remark about racial disparities with regard to education, IQ and culture. Right now your comment looks pretty racist.
      - streptomycin 12y ago
        The average American man and the average American woman have the same IQ, were raised in fairly similar cultural environments, and received fairly similar educations. But compare the average black man and the average white man. The average black man has a lower IQ (Google it, many citations), somewhat different culture (more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to speak in AAVE, more likely to have come from a broken home, etc), and worse education (likely went to worse schools as a kid, less likely to have gone to college, etc). Maybe I am racist for writing that, but I think it would be more racist to ignore those facts, because that would lead to ignoring the problems and not trying to help disadvantaged groups.
        gizmo 12y ago
        Because of racist laws, policies and practices Black people have fewer opportunities from literally before they're born. Studies indicate that poor nutrition and other environmental factors explain the "IQ gap" nearly completely. The remaining points are most likely an issue of bias in the tests themselves. Most white people wouldn't do well in an AAVE based IQ test. Black people (and other minorities) are being actively discriminated against. In terms of the neighborhoods they live in (white flight), law enforcement (stop and frisk, minimum sentences, racial profiling), employment, housing (mortgage applications) and so on. This active discrimination is an ongoing and constant problem that goes all the way back to apartheid. Black people will do better when white people stop holding them back. Conflating black culture and active discrimination has racist connotations. For instance appalling Wall Street behavior is not condemned as a failing of white culture, but street crime is erroneously attributed as a failing of black culture. There are a thousand other examples. Black culture: music, food, dance, art, speech are not to blame. No more than white culture is to blame for WW2. It's part of the racist discourse where environmental factors are described as if they're innate failings of people who are genetically no different from anybody else. Now I don't believe you're a racist person (you probably don't think group X is inferior to group Y), but the arguments you make have racist connotations for the reasons I gave above.
NaitJones 12y ago
Let me first say, as someone with two children, both girls, I really appreciate the efforts that are going into making CS careers an accessible option for them, and that includes your post and the sentiment behind it. Kudos to you! What continues to irk me is the almost a disregard for black males when discussing diversity. There isn't a single group less represented in CS than AA males and there isn't a single group that has been more disparately affected by the recession. I believe that gender and sexual identification is a pretty easy thing to agree on when discussing diversity, because only a cave man would oppose a more welcoming environment, and balanced representation of women and LGBT. What irks me, is that I know only a hand full of AA males working on silicon valley and they are all friends of mine, and yet they are addressed indirectly in diversity reports as (non whites) as a way of covering up the abysmal rates of black males represented. My cynical side says that some of this is the result of a culture that currently does not take black males specifically seriously, due to the representation of them in popular culture, but my more rational side tells me that we as black males bear alot of the responsibility ourselves for understanding where the world is going, and to prepare our careers for tomorrows jobs (technology) and to help advance those that need mentoring to get into CS career paths both technical and non technical. Even so, and taking self responsibility, black males will need to be addressed specifically by the same organizations that are addressing diversity and there needs to be a more forthright and brutally honest admission of what is happening. Black men are being left out of another generation of wealth creation and we need to stem (excuse the pun) the tide of that now. Again, I appreciate the dialog, and I do appreciate the efforts to open up silicon valley to all. Just my humble take (engage in rotten tomato throwing now)
- lliwta 12y ago
  I'm so glad to see this post! You hit the nail on the head. > Black men are being left out of another generation of wealth creation and we need to stem (excuse the pun) the tide of that now. What's your suggestion, other than the normal stuff (engaging with students in HS etc)?
  - NaitJones 12y ago
    It can start by not brushing it under the rug. By using "diversity" as a catch all for feel goodiness, is a little bit self serving and even selfish in the grand scheme of things. If we are going to do the work then do it, don't do a bunch of marketing. If we want to look at CS and look at the harshest affected group it specifically black males (which no one is doing in all of these reports they are releasing) - it irks me because it seems that the world has moved on from black males needing help and it is more en vogue in 2014 to focus efforts on women and LGBT entirely and exclusively. A more well rounded approach is needed and that can't begin until we are comfortable with admitting that the job isn't done in regards to young black males, and yet the sentiment seems to be "we've done enough for that underrepresented group" Solutions? tech companies and incubators need to be targeting young black males for immersion and mentoring programs as early as 5th grade. The myth that silicon valley is closed to non CS types needs to be exposed for exactly that, a myth, so that we can start to recruit talented non SC students into silicon valley in areas of marketing, sales, general management and finance. Areas where they are currently. waiting ten years until the CS rates increase is not an option, because the ship will have already sailed by then on this generation of wealth being created the whole debate around diversity in silicon valley right now is pretty much marketing and seems pretty cynical and disingenuous from my POV
ritchiea 12y ago
I don't think you're playing "easy mode" by any means. It's admirable that you are writing blogs posts about gender diversity in tech & at YC. It would be even more admirable if you wrote about class and race diversity in tech & at YC. Right now it feels like you are avoiding talk of other types diversity in the industry. Though I do agree the issues are different.
shanacarp 12y ago
Agreed. A lot of the race issues are closely tied to class issues. The gender issue isn't.

by sama 12y ago

jfc 12y ago

Many people deal with both gender and race issues simultaneously. Non-white women in the U.S. are 18%+ of the population (over 1/3 of the U.S. female population). It's easy to think of gender/race as an either or, but for many of us it's a both/and. I've written a book on the subject (diverse women/women of color), and have done a good bit of research in this area which is why I am familiar with the numbers and the issues. Feel free to reach out if you'd like additional information. Edit: This isn't meant to discourage; the post is a good start. Just wanted to provide some information for next time.

_pius 12y ago

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. Sure, but you clearly didn't call the piece "Gender and Startups" or "Sexism and Startups." Presumably the broader title was chosen deliberately. For instance, I'd push back on an essay called "YC and Startups" if it only mentioned one company in one batch, but with a quick token sentence about other batches. i don't think we're playing this on "easy mode", but i'm sorry you feel that way. What can I say? It's a piece that scores points for "addressing diversity" but only substantively discusses the less controversial, more tractable subtopic of sexism. Excited to read the upcoming, more inclusive posts though.

sama 12y ago
we shared the stats on founders born outside the US. it's not a perfect map to race, but it's not a bad one either--there are people of all colors in this YC batch. do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"? i had an early draft titled "sexism and startups", but many people pointed out the last 7 paragraphs apply to racial minorities just as much as women.
- _pius 12y ago
  do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"? That's the net effect; it's not my place to impute a motive. All I'm saying is that you wrote a piece about sexism and titled it as if it were about a broader topic. And I know that you're usually a sharp, precise writer. I do recognize that none of this is easy and I think it's admirable that you've addressed this (very thorny) topic. You've said that you plan to address the other aspects of diversity as it relates to YC and I'm looking forward to reading about it.
- incision 12y ago
  >"we shared the stats on founders born outside the US. it's not a perfect map to race, but it's not a bad one either." It's pretty well established that there are lots of people who were born outside the US in tech in general [1] and among founders specifically [2]. Simply noting the same isn't necessarily saying anything. >"there are people of all colors in this YC batch." That's great. Seeing numbers broken out by ethnicity would be a lot more interesting as it would facilitate a more direct comparison to the rest of the recent releases on diversity. 1: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516546/silicon-valley-fights-for-immigrant-talent/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516546/silicon-valley-f... 2: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/immigration-and-entrepreneurship/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/immigration-and...
- thrownaway999 12y ago
  I've met quite a few YC founders from Europe. They were white, and shouldn't count towards your reputation for diversity.
harryh 12y ago
What's the evidence that sexism is a more tractable problem than racism? Just curious...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - gizmo 12y ago
    I'm not sure what you're hinting at with your remark about racial disparities with regard to education, IQ and culture. Right now your comment looks pretty racist.
    - streptomycin 12y ago
      The average American man and the average American woman have the same IQ, were raised in fairly similar cultural environments, and received fairly similar educations. But compare the average black man and the average white man. The average black man has a lower IQ (Google it, many citations), somewhat different culture (more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to speak in AAVE, more likely to have come from a broken home, etc), and worse education (likely went to worse schools as a kid, less likely to have gone to college, etc). Maybe I am racist for writing that, but I think it would be more racist to ignore those facts, because that would lead to ignoring the problems and not trying to help disadvantaged groups.
      - gizmo 12y ago
        Because of racist laws, policies and practices Black people have fewer opportunities from literally before they're born. Studies indicate that poor nutrition and other environmental factors explain the "IQ gap" nearly completely. The remaining points are most likely an issue of bias in the tests themselves. Most white people wouldn't do well in an AAVE based IQ test. Black people (and other minorities) are being actively discriminated against. In terms of the neighborhoods they live in (white flight), law enforcement (stop and frisk, minimum sentences, racial profiling), employment, housing (mortgage applications) and so on. This active discrimination is an ongoing and constant problem that goes all the way back to apartheid. Black people will do better when white people stop holding them back. Conflating black culture and active discrimination has racist connotations. For instance appalling Wall Street behavior is not condemned as a failing of white culture, but street crime is erroneously attributed as a failing of black culture. There are a thousand other examples. Black culture: music, food, dance, art, speech are not to blame. No more than white culture is to blame for WW2. It's part of the racist discourse where environmental factors are described as if they're innate failings of people who are genetically no different from anybody else. Now I don't believe you're a racist person (you probably don't think group X is inferior to group Y), but the arguments you make have racist connotations for the reasons I gave above.

NaitJones 12y ago

Let me first say, as someone with two children, both girls, I really appreciate the efforts that are going into making CS careers an accessible option for them, and that includes your post and the sentiment behind it. Kudos to you! What continues to irk me is the almost a disregard for black males when discussing diversity. There isn't a single group less represented in CS than AA males and there isn't a single group that has been more disparately affected by the recession. I believe that gender and sexual identification is a pretty easy thing to agree on when discussing diversity, because only a cave man would oppose a more welcoming environment, and balanced representation of women and LGBT. What irks me, is that I know only a hand full of AA males working on silicon valley and they are all friends of mine, and yet they are addressed indirectly in diversity reports as (non whites) as a way of covering up the abysmal rates of black males represented. My cynical side says that some of this is the result of a culture that currently does not take black males specifically seriously, due to the representation of them in popular culture, but my more rational side tells me that we as black males bear alot of the responsibility ourselves for understanding where the world is going, and to prepare our careers for tomorrows jobs (technology) and to help advance those that need mentoring to get into CS career paths both technical and non technical. Even so, and taking self responsibility, black males will need to be addressed specifically by the same organizations that are addressing diversity and there needs to be a more forthright and brutally honest admission of what is happening. Black men are being left out of another generation of wealth creation and we need to stem (excuse the pun) the tide of that now. Again, I appreciate the dialog, and I do appreciate the efforts to open up silicon valley to all. Just my humble take (engage in rotten tomato throwing now)

lliwta 12y ago
I'm so glad to see this post! You hit the nail on the head. > Black men are being left out of another generation of wealth creation and we need to stem (excuse the pun) the tide of that now. What's your suggestion, other than the normal stuff (engaging with students in HS etc)?
- NaitJones 12y ago
  It can start by not brushing it under the rug. By using "diversity" as a catch all for feel goodiness, is a little bit self serving and even selfish in the grand scheme of things. If we are going to do the work then do it, don't do a bunch of marketing. If we want to look at CS and look at the harshest affected group it specifically black males (which no one is doing in all of these reports they are releasing) - it irks me because it seems that the world has moved on from black males needing help and it is more en vogue in 2014 to focus efforts on women and LGBT entirely and exclusively. A more well rounded approach is needed and that can't begin until we are comfortable with admitting that the job isn't done in regards to young black males, and yet the sentiment seems to be "we've done enough for that underrepresented group" Solutions? tech companies and incubators need to be targeting young black males for immersion and mentoring programs as early as 5th grade. The myth that silicon valley is closed to non CS types needs to be exposed for exactly that, a myth, so that we can start to recruit talented non SC students into silicon valley in areas of marketing, sales, general management and finance. Areas where they are currently. waiting ten years until the CS rates increase is not an option, because the ship will have already sailed by then on this generation of wealth being created the whole debate around diversity in silicon valley right now is pretty much marketing and seems pretty cynical and disingenuous from my POV

ritchiea 12y ago

I don't think you're playing "easy mode" by any means. It's admirable that you are writing blogs posts about gender diversity in tech & at YC. It would be even more admirable if you wrote about class and race diversity in tech & at YC. Right now it feels like you are avoiding talk of other types diversity in the industry. Though I do agree the issues are different.

shanacarp 12y ago

Agreed. A lot of the race issues are closely tied to class issues. The gender issue isn't.