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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Contamination_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Contamination_co... I'm not at all anti-vaccinat

by api 12y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Contamination_concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Contamination_co... I'm not at all anti-vaccination, but I am anti-authoritarian and anti-closed-science. People have a right to know what they're putting in their bodies. The SV40 contamination turned out to not be that serious, but it was a close call. Had SV40 been potently carcinogenic, we would have had a medieval plague of cancer. In the end it reduces to the problem of freedom and open society: freedom means tolerating people being idiots. Freedom means it's okay for the Ku Klux Klan to mail me literature. It means it's okay for people to question vaccination because some stupid celebrity told them it caused their son's autism. It means it's okay for people to put pink plastic flamingos on their lawns. The alternative is a closed, authoritarian society.

mpweiher 12y ago
"People have a right to know what they're putting in their bodies." Right, and the doctor was trying to give her that knowledge, and she refused.
- crpatino 12y ago
  That does not sound like most doctors I have met. Typical doctor's attitude is: "Look this white coat, that I happen to have and you don't? It means even if I tried to explain to you all the implications you are not smart enough to understand. So shut up and do as I say, I have more important things to do!" Edit: I originally wrote "black coat" instead of "white coat". There must be some nasty stuff hidden in my brain's crawl spaces.
cstross 12y ago
Viral pandemics do not respect your personal boundaries: your "right to be an idiot" over vaccination may not be intended to result in deaths, but that's what will happen if we indulge such beliefs until herd immunity is lost. We need to draw a distinction between idiotic behavior with no externalities -- side-effects for others -- and idiotic behavior that can damage third parties. Upshot: there's no simple dichotomy between an open society and an authoritarian one.
Taek 12y ago
I'm not sure why you've been downvoted because I believe you have made a non-harmful contribution to the discussion. Freedom is important, because once we've given up the right to refuse vaccination, we're a step closer to giving up other rights as well. Further down this path we could see criminals without the right to refuse sterilization or mood treatment. This article of course is not about vaccinations specifically. It's about a woman with a black and white view of protecting her children. She ends up choosing the less safe option out of ignorance and stubbornness but she's ultimately trying to do what is best for her children. This article assumes that her ignorance on the vaccination issue indicates ignorance about all things scientific, which is a fallacy. Likely, she only needs the right person (someone she trusts) to approach her with a proper explanation. Yes, the vaccination issue is absurd but we will not resolve it by removing parents from the freedom to do what they think is healthiest for their child. That will not make them more open to logical discussion and more likely to trust the decisions of their doctors.
tanglisha 12y ago
Public health issues like vaccination aren't like other issues. Vaccination decisions aren't made in a bubble where only you suffer if you get sick or become a carrier. There will always be a certain portion of the populace that cannot receive a specific vaccination because of allergies or a weakened immune system that cannot handle it. The whooping cough epidemics that have been sweeping through anti-vaccination areas in recent years are an example of how a decision that you make for your kids can result in other people dying.

by api 12y ago

mpweiher 12y ago

"People have a right to know what they're putting in their bodies." Right, and the doctor was trying to give her that knowledge, and she refused.

crpatino 12y ago
That does not sound like most doctors I have met. Typical doctor's attitude is: "Look this white coat, that I happen to have and you don't? It means even if I tried to explain to you all the implications you are not smart enough to understand. So shut up and do as I say, I have more important things to do!" Edit: I originally wrote "black coat" instead of "white coat". There must be some nasty stuff hidden in my brain's crawl spaces.

cstross 12y ago

Viral pandemics do not respect your personal boundaries: your "right to be an idiot" over vaccination may not be intended to result in deaths, but that's what will happen if we indulge such beliefs until herd immunity is lost. We need to draw a distinction between idiotic behavior with no externalities -- side-effects for others -- and idiotic behavior that can damage third parties. Upshot: there's no simple dichotomy between an open society and an authoritarian one.

Taek 12y ago

I'm not sure why you've been downvoted because I believe you have made a non-harmful contribution to the discussion. Freedom is important, because once we've given up the right to refuse vaccination, we're a step closer to giving up other rights as well. Further down this path we could see criminals without the right to refuse sterilization or mood treatment. This article of course is not about vaccinations specifically. It's about a woman with a black and white view of protecting her children. She ends up choosing the less safe option out of ignorance and stubbornness but she's ultimately trying to do what is best for her children. This article assumes that her ignorance on the vaccination issue indicates ignorance about all things scientific, which is a fallacy. Likely, she only needs the right person (someone she trusts) to approach her with a proper explanation. Yes, the vaccination issue is absurd but we will not resolve it by removing parents from the freedom to do what they think is healthiest for their child. That will not make them more open to logical discussion and more likely to trust the decisions of their doctors.

tanglisha 12y ago

Public health issues like vaccination aren't like other issues. Vaccination decisions aren't made in a bubble where only you suffer if you get sick or become a carrier. There will always be a certain portion of the populace that cannot receive a specific vaccination because of allergies or a weakened immune system that cannot handle it. The whooping cough epidemics that have been sweeping through anti-vaccination areas in recent years are an example of how a decision that you make for your kids can result in other people dying.