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European Court Says CIA Ran Secret Jail in a Polish Forest

124 points by reirob 12y ago

gambiting 12y ago
As a Polish person - I feel really bad that my country has in any way or form participated in this and helped CIA. Our country is known to bend over to America's requests, getting absolutely nothing back, and it upsets me deeply.
- leaveyou 12y ago
  First, I'm not american and I don't make excuses for the US here but my feeling is that if what Poland gave to US was secret, then it's very likely that what Poland received from US in return is secret too. Apart from that, what we see here is that governments aren't really bounded by laws, treaties nor conventions(not even constitutions). The only thing that bounds a "willing" government is another government with a bigger army or some nukes.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    The atmosphere in Poland has been rather gung-ho pro American no matter what, this is likely related to the proximity of America's (former?) arch enemy Russia with whom the Poles have an extremely uneasy relationship, mostly due to having been repeatedly run over from the East (as well as the West) in living memory. See the statements of Polish politicians regarding the missile shield for some good examples of this.
    - euroclydon 12y ago
      Yes, I think NATO membership counts as getting something in return.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.
        ufmace 12y ago
        If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
        euroclydon 12y ago
        Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
        ufmace 12y ago
        The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?
    - leaveyou 12y ago
      As a "romanian person" I'm very familiar with that atmosphere too and in my opinion there is an ongoing "security" trade between US and Poland, Romania and other countries in the area in the sense that US provides the security guarantees (and who knows what else) and the partner countries compensate through favorable contracts for US corporations, various political concessions (and who knows what else).
      - k3oni 12y ago
        I'm there with you on this as another romanian&american person. This seems to all have started showing more with the air defense strategy in the region pushed by US some time ago but i am sure this goes back even more than that. At the same time these deals do sound like they are a bit one sided, in favor of US.
    - 127001brewer 12y ago
      The book, "The Eagle Unbowed" [1], is an excellent history of Poland (and the Polish people) during the Second World War - I've only read about half the book, but gives valuable insights into the geopolitical atmosphere of Eastern Europe. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbowed-halik-kochanski-review http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbow...
    - CaptainZapp 12y ago
      What annoys a lot of central European countries (ex eastern block countries) is the fact that their enthusiasm for the US is greeted with complete indifference. Czechs, Poles and others still need an US visa, despite the fact that they are fully fledged EU members and part of the Schengen treaty. So the general attitude is no more quite as gung-ho as it was in the beginning of the millenium.
      - _delirium 12y ago
        Fwiw, Czechs no longer do. Six ex-eastern-bloc countries were added to the visa-waiver program in 2008: Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia.
        CaptainZapp 12y ago
        I stand corrected. Thanks
    - gdy 12y ago
      Like this one? J The latest revelations concern Radosław Sikorski, Poland’s Oxford-educated foreign minister, who was caught dismissing Poland’s relationship with the United States as “worthless.” “Complete bullshit. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians, and we'll think that everything is super because we gave the Americans a blow job,” he allegedly says in the recording from January 2014, published in Wprost on June 23. “Losers. Complete losers.” http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-government-radek-sikorski-USA-090 http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-governm...
- adaml_623 12y ago
  If it makes you feel better the governments in most countries around the world are quite pathetic when it comes to agreeing to do almost anything for the United States. Or the IOC (olympics), FIFA, or any company with turnover in the billions, or arms manufacturers, or friends who they went to school with, etc. There was a thread in HN today about how companies are run so illogically. I think (hope) in the next few decades there will be major changes in governance when the cost of monitoring government activities leads to an increase in transparency and a decrease in illegal and immoral behaviour.
- jwr 12y ago
  Same here. This is deeply unsettling. Given our history and aspirations to high moral standards, we should be ashamed. I want my country to work with other countries (including the USA), but while respecting human rights.
tomp 12y ago
I don't get it how a court can rule that a <natural fact> can be either true or false.
- vidarh 12y ago
  It doesn't. The court has ruled that for the purposes of the legal process involved, it is to be considered fact. All it means is that the court believes that the presented evidence meets the pre-requisite standard.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    To expand on your, correct, point, making findings of fact is a way to compartmentalize the aspects of reasoning that lead to a conclusion. If you've ever argued with someone, you know that disputes as to facts or reasoning get mixed together and continually rehashed. But disputes can be broken down into disagreements about what happened, and disagreements of what logically follows from certain premises. Then, resolving each of those disagreements individually, usually by weighing evidence against some standard, ensures forward progress towards a conclusion.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  If you don't get that then you probably don't get how any court decision is ever possible. The correct interpretation of the headline is that the court found that the evidence documenting this particular fact is strong enough to support the decision to collapse the true/false options to just 'true'. Courts are messy, they deal with uncertainties all the time, so we ask them to clarify what their view is on the veracity of certain facts and the courts then rule based upon the evidence and their interpretation thereof and then we proceed from that new base of certainty. Of course courts err (miscarriages of justice) but this is a low enough incidence that we continue to believe that when a court rules something is 'true' that it did in fact happen. Tricky concept, courts! In the end it's still people and people make mistakes but these people are experts trained to sift fact from fiction.
  - tomp 12y ago
drivingmenuts 12y ago
And we'll continue to absolve any American president of war crimes, even though it's become patently obvious that there were war crimes. We'll hand out punishments to enlisted personnel operating under the aegis of their superior officers, while superior officers avoid serious punishment. We forgive and forget the lawyers who authored the decisions that allowed this horror in the first place. And they call us the good guys. More like "the didn't-get-found-out-by-decent-people" guys. I'll admit to my own days of wanting glass parking lots in war zones or delivering godlike wrath on foreign opposition, but I don't actually have the power to make that happen. I also generally keep it to myself, because hey, coffee solves a lot of problems. But nobody's even trying to prosecute our officials for their involvement in war crimes.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 12y ago
  Prosecution for "war crimes" is something that only happens if you lose a war. That's not a cynical statement; it falls out of trying to reconcile the concept of "war crimes" with our concept of a world of sovereign nations. Sovereign nations aren't bound by any higher sovereignty that can set rules and subject violators to legal process. The only context in which a nation, or its leaders, can be punished for "war crimes" is when it loses a war and is temporarily inferior to the victors, who can impose prosecution as punishment for conduct during the war.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    This is simply not true. Prosecutions for war crimes have happened both for winners and losers of wars. The truth, to be more exact, is that the losers are overwhelmingly more prosecuted than the winners (by the winners), but the winners now have the option to be brought before the ICC in the Hague. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court Of course the chances of countries being signatory to (and having ratified) that particular treaty are roughly proportional to the inverse of their activities regarding such crimes in the recent past.
contingencies 12y ago
WHAT?!??! Illegal kidnapping, torture and demonstrated government complicity: and all I got was this lousy 100,000EUR? They obviously need some decent lawyers.
tptacek 12y ago
This story has no more connection to HN than any other political, human rights, or current events story. There's a whole Internet full of venues to have discussions about these kinds of stories. They don't need to be on the HN front page. Which is why the guidelines say they shouldn't be.
- samirmenon 12y ago
  I thought it was interesting. I imagine that the people who voted it to the front page thought so too.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    The bar is higher than "interesting enough to garner upvotes". Here's what moderator 'dang said about this issue a few weeks back: Some of you feel that such stories are so important that the flamewars around them should just be allowed to burn. Our experience and observation suggest the contrary: they are bad—existentially bad—for the site. Like fire in general, they lead to more of the same. So the alternative to the current policy is conflagration. The best aspects of HN, in our view, would not survive this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8012898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8012898
- TallGuyShort 12y ago
  And a comment similar to this shows up every time there's a political, human rights, or current events story. Which is why the guidelines also say this: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
vj44 12y ago
As a person born in Poland and living in the US, I'm proud that these two countries cooperate to advance common goals, and I can only wish that we work closer together (both openly or secretly). As to what happened in those secret locations, the European Court is free to investigate (and potentially prosecute) CIA, which is the organization directly responsible. But then, wouldn't it make more sense to go after Guantanamo (or eastern Ukraine these days) first?

124 points by reirob 12y ago

As a Polish person - I feel really bad that my country has in any way or form participated in this and helped CIA. Our country is known to bend over to America's requests, getting absolutely nothing back, and it upsets me deeply.

leaveyou 12y ago
First, I'm not american and I don't make excuses for the US here but my feeling is that if what Poland gave to US was secret, then it's very likely that what Poland received from US in return is secret too. Apart from that, what we see here is that governments aren't really bounded by laws, treaties nor conventions(not even constitutions). The only thing that bounds a "willing" government is another government with a bigger army or some nukes.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  The atmosphere in Poland has been rather gung-ho pro American no matter what, this is likely related to the proximity of America's (former?) arch enemy Russia with whom the Poles have an extremely uneasy relationship, mostly due to having been repeatedly run over from the East (as well as the West) in living memory. See the statements of Polish politicians regarding the missile shield for some good examples of this.
  - euroclydon 12y ago
    Yes, I think NATO membership counts as getting something in return.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.
      - ufmace 12y ago
        If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
        euroclydon 12y ago
        Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
        ufmace 12y ago
        The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?
  - leaveyou 12y ago
    As a "romanian person" I'm very familiar with that atmosphere too and in my opinion there is an ongoing "security" trade between US and Poland, Romania and other countries in the area in the sense that US provides the security guarantees (and who knows what else) and the partner countries compensate through favorable contracts for US corporations, various political concessions (and who knows what else).
    - k3oni 12y ago
      I'm there with you on this as another romanian&american person. This seems to all have started showing more with the air defense strategy in the region pushed by US some time ago but i am sure this goes back even more than that. At the same time these deals do sound like they are a bit one sided, in favor of US.
  - 127001brewer 12y ago
    The book, "The Eagle Unbowed" [1], is an excellent history of Poland (and the Polish people) during the Second World War - I've only read about half the book, but gives valuable insights into the geopolitical atmosphere of Eastern Europe. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbowed-halik-kochanski-review http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbow...
  - CaptainZapp 12y ago
    What annoys a lot of central European countries (ex eastern block countries) is the fact that their enthusiasm for the US is greeted with complete indifference. Czechs, Poles and others still need an US visa, despite the fact that they are fully fledged EU members and part of the Schengen treaty. So the general attitude is no more quite as gung-ho as it was in the beginning of the millenium.
    - _delirium 12y ago
      Fwiw, Czechs no longer do. Six ex-eastern-bloc countries were added to the visa-waiver program in 2008: Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia.
      - CaptainZapp 12y ago
        I stand corrected. Thanks
  - gdy 12y ago
    Like this one? J The latest revelations concern Radosław Sikorski, Poland’s Oxford-educated foreign minister, who was caught dismissing Poland’s relationship with the United States as “worthless.” “Complete bullshit. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians, and we'll think that everything is super because we gave the Americans a blow job,” he allegedly says in the recording from January 2014, published in Wprost on June 23. “Losers. Complete losers.” http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-government-radek-sikorski-USA-090 http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-governm...
adaml_623 12y ago
If it makes you feel better the governments in most countries around the world are quite pathetic when it comes to agreeing to do almost anything for the United States. Or the IOC (olympics), FIFA, or any company with turnover in the billions, or arms manufacturers, or friends who they went to school with, etc. There was a thread in HN today about how companies are run so illogically. I think (hope) in the next few decades there will be major changes in governance when the cost of monitoring government activities leads to an increase in transparency and a decrease in illegal and immoral behaviour.
jwr 12y ago
Same here. This is deeply unsettling. Given our history and aspirations to high moral standards, we should be ashamed. I want my country to work with other countries (including the USA), but while respecting human rights.

tomp 12y ago

I don't get it how a court can rule that a <natural fact> can be either true or false.

vidarh 12y ago
It doesn't. The court has ruled that for the purposes of the legal process involved, it is to be considered fact. All it means is that the court believes that the presented evidence meets the pre-requisite standard.
- rayiner 12y ago
  To expand on your, correct, point, making findings of fact is a way to compartmentalize the aspects of reasoning that lead to a conclusion. If you've ever argued with someone, you know that disputes as to facts or reasoning get mixed together and continually rehashed. But disputes can be broken down into disagreements about what happened, and disagreements of what logically follows from certain premises. Then, resolving each of those disagreements individually, usually by weighing evidence against some standard, ensures forward progress towards a conclusion.
jacquesm 12y ago
If you don't get that then you probably don't get how any court decision is ever possible. The correct interpretation of the headline is that the court found that the evidence documenting this particular fact is strong enough to support the decision to collapse the true/false options to just 'true'. Courts are messy, they deal with uncertainties all the time, so we ask them to clarify what their view is on the veracity of certain facts and the courts then rule based upon the evidence and their interpretation thereof and then we proceed from that new base of certainty. Of course courts err (miscarriages of justice) but this is a low enough incidence that we continue to believe that when a court rules something is 'true' that it did in fact happen. Tricky concept, courts! In the end it's still people and people make mistakes but these people are experts trained to sift fact from fiction.
- tomp 12y ago

drivingmenuts 12y ago

And we'll continue to absolve any American president of war crimes, even though it's become patently obvious that there were war crimes. We'll hand out punishments to enlisted personnel operating under the aegis of their superior officers, while superior officers avoid serious punishment. We forgive and forget the lawyers who authored the decisions that allowed this horror in the first place. And they call us the good guys. More like "the didn't-get-found-out-by-decent-people" guys. I'll admit to my own days of wanting glass parking lots in war zones or delivering godlike wrath on foreign opposition, but I don't actually have the power to make that happen. I also generally keep it to myself, because hey, coffee solves a lot of problems. But nobody's even trying to prosecute our officials for their involvement in war crimes.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 12y ago
Prosecution for "war crimes" is something that only happens if you lose a war. That's not a cynical statement; it falls out of trying to reconcile the concept of "war crimes" with our concept of a world of sovereign nations. Sovereign nations aren't bound by any higher sovereignty that can set rules and subject violators to legal process. The only context in which a nation, or its leaders, can be punished for "war crimes" is when it loses a war and is temporarily inferior to the victors, who can impose prosecution as punishment for conduct during the war.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  This is simply not true. Prosecutions for war crimes have happened both for winners and losers of wars. The truth, to be more exact, is that the losers are overwhelmingly more prosecuted than the winners (by the winners), but the winners now have the option to be brought before the ICC in the Hague. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court Of course the chances of countries being signatory to (and having ratified) that particular treaty are roughly proportional to the inverse of their activities regarding such crimes in the recent past.

contingencies 12y ago

WHAT?!??! Illegal kidnapping, torture and demonstrated government complicity: and all I got was this lousy 100,000EUR? They obviously need some decent lawyers.

tptacek 12y ago

This story has no more connection to HN than any other political, human rights, or current events story. There's a whole Internet full of venues to have discussions about these kinds of stories. They don't need to be on the HN front page. Which is why the guidelines say they shouldn't be.

samirmenon 12y ago
I thought it was interesting. I imagine that the people who voted it to the front page thought so too.
- tptacek 12y ago
  The bar is higher than "interesting enough to garner upvotes". Here's what moderator 'dang said about this issue a few weeks back: Some of you feel that such stories are so important that the flamewars around them should just be allowed to burn. Our experience and observation suggest the contrary: they are bad—existentially bad—for the site. Like fire in general, they lead to more of the same. So the alternative to the current policy is conflagration. The best aspects of HN, in our view, would not survive this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8012898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8012898
TallGuyShort 12y ago
And a comment similar to this shows up every time there's a political, human rights, or current events story. Which is why the guidelines also say this: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.

vj44 12y ago

As a person born in Poland and living in the US, I'm proud that these two countries cooperate to advance common goals, and I can only wish that we work closer together (both openly or secretly). As to what happened in those secret locations, the European Court is free to investigate (and potentially prosecute) CIA, which is the organization directly responsible. But then, wouldn't it make more sense to go after Guantanamo (or eastern Ukraine these days) first?