8 ms·

Bitwage

102 points by markmassie 12y ago

lukasm 12y ago
I'd refuse the job offer if the company would pay me in bitcoin. Volatility is not acceptable. Having said that, there is a market for companies that hire remote workers and they could use it for automating the process of exchanging, accounting fiat1 -> BTC -> fiat2
- yen223 12y ago
  The existing banking system, for all its warts, is a proven, secure system for exchanging fiat1 -> fiat2. Bitcoin's use case has to be a lot stronger than merely being a substitute for TTs.
  - SG- 12y ago
    If you're willing to deal with delays and exchange rate fees, sure.
    - aw3c2 12y ago
      You mean with Bitcoin?
    - yen223 12y ago
      Bitcoin transactions won't be free forever. The incentive for me to verify your Bitcoin transactions using my electricity and my processor cycles, is that I might get a free Bitcoin in return. This is the basis of Bitcoin mining, and it's a rather elegant solution in my opinion. However, once this supply of mined Bitcoin slows down, where's the incentive for me to continue processing transactions? That's right, transaction fees. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
      - SG- 12y ago
        Transfers of a certain size were never free, the fee however is tiny (0.0001 BTC) and doesn't compare to transfer fees or other international money transfer service fees.
        exelius 12y ago
        Don't forget that there is a cap on the number of transactions that the blockchain can process in a given amount of time (IIRC it's like 7 transactions per second). That's what we call a scarce resource, which will eventually lead to rent-seeking. I guarantee there will be payment processors that spring up as a result of being able to guarantee priority on your transactions because they have agreements with multiple large bitcoin mining pools. I'm also willing to bet that this fee settles out close to the transfer fee for existing international money transfer services.
        FatalLogic 12y ago
        >Don't forget that there is a cap on the number of transactions that the blockchain can process in a given amount of time (IIRC it's like 7 transactions per second). 7 transactions per second is an arbitrary limit that was imposed to keep things manageable, because Bitcoin is a beta, an experimental system. Transaction fees may rise for the reasons you've described, but referencing the '7 TPS cap' as if it is a real limit makes the situation look far worse than it is. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
      - baddox 12y ago
        Of course there will be transaction fees if Bitcoin sticks around long enough. There are already optional but de facto transaction fees for certain types of transactions. I'm pretty sure those fees are still significantly cheaper than doing equivalent transactions through the traditional banking system.
  - mhluongo 12y ago
    We must define secure differently.
- bildung 12y ago
  Wouldn't want to be paid in BTC either, also because of the volatility. I do think it would be a nice thing for speculative side jobs, though: The extra income gets stashed away automatically, and I would only look again at it a few years later :)
  - Daviey 12y ago
    Sure, if you are /actually/ paid using bitcoin. I think what is being suggested is bitcoin is really used as an interim currency, or transfer protocol - to avoid the cost and time of current international banking processes. Therefore, you would still be paid in a real currency, and the underlying number of bitcoins used in the transfer is not relevant. However, this product seems to be suggesting paid it bitcoins - which I would also not be able to accept. :)
- SG- 12y ago
  There's nothing stopping you from converting the BTC to fiat the moment you get paid, or for a service to automatically do this like BTC merchant services (no idea if this service does it). For merchants Bitpay guarantees that you'll get the exact fiat value transferred to your bank account that the item was originally priced at.
  - octo_t 12y ago
    I wouldn't want my salary to be measured in BTC. If you got hired in December, when the price was $900/BTC, at say 1000 BTC pa salary (so $90k pa), these days you would be on a $60k salary.
    - broolstoryco 12y ago
      i think you mean 100 BTC
    - SG- 12y ago
      Nobody uses BTC like this for anything (pay or purchase). At the time of payment you would convert your fiat value into BTC and make your payment, the other side is free to keep the BTC to convert it instantly into their local fiat.
      - yen223 12y ago
        I see this argument a lot. The issue I have with this is that you are merely trading the headaches of international wire transfer with the headache of converting BTC<->fiat. Basically, instead of dealing with a bank, you're dealing with Coinbase. No, this service would useful if I can get paid in Bitcoin, and pay for a majority of my expenses in Bitcoin, without having to convert to fiat at any point. Unfortunately, the Bitcoin ecosystem is nowhere near this sophisticated yet.
        SG- 12y ago
        I suppose that would be true if exchanging BTC to local fiat was a "headache" for me. In my country and with my experience it hasn't been a headache at all between the local exchanges I can walk up in person or online.
telot 12y ago
Anyone know of the tax benefits/pitfalls of paying (and being paid) in bitcoin?
- logicchains 12y ago
  It certainly makes tax evasion easier, if that counts. Not as easy as paying/being paid in cash, but far easier than other electronic means of payment (in the sense that it currently offers more anonymity).
- Gotperl 12y ago
  It isn't legal in most US states. Almost all states have laws that dictate employees working within that state have to be paid in US currency
  - greenyoda 12y ago
    And payroll taxes certainly need to be paid in US currency. The IRS and state tax departments don't accept Bitcoin.
    - bduerst 12y ago
      They do, but it's classified as a "barter". If you have the option to get USD instead of BTC, then you're much, much better off getting paid the former.
  - baddox 12y ago
    To cite one example, here's Texas: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/LA/htm/LA.61.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/LA/htm/LA.61.htm
piratebroadcast 12y ago
Website looks like shit.
- untilHellbanned 12y ago
  For a just launched product and having made several websites myself, I have to disagree. I think it is quite professional for a first version. What do you think looks better? Have you seen major bank websites, e.g., Bank of America's? They are really terrible on many levels (usability, performance).
mhluongo 12y ago
They claim to be the first, but what about BitPay? https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-payroll-api https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-payroll-api
practicalpants 12y ago
"Investor Links"... This feels like a 'me too' thing. I don't personally see the value in it either.
amatera 12y ago
I don't get the point. I get BTC for my Job. Beside the heavy variations about how much 1 BTC is in my currency, how do i buy things with that? Sure, some etailers like Dell accept it. But if i ask now my local supermarkt how much BTC is needed to pay, i would see in a lot of overwhelmed faces. Same counts for my rent and so on. So what exactly is the benifit of this service? (Maybe i don't get the whole "bitcoin"-Thing anyway)
droopyEyelids 12y ago
This is awesome because it's another step in the path of creating an autonomous corporation. I can't believe we're actually watching this happen.
Oculus 12y ago
It'd be more interesting to see how the built-in smart contracts in Bitcoin can be used to secure payments/work in the freelancer/client model.
nmrm 12y ago
The rhetoric around explanations of the utility of cryptocurrency has changed a lot in the past few years. These days, the major emphasis is on circumventing the fees/processes associated with banking (as opposed to the libertarian and/or anonymity rhetoric, which dominated a couple years ago). As a witness, this landing page. And I think the rhetoric has converged to the strongest argument -- political ideology aside, the only true substantial marketplace advantage of BC over sovereign currency is the ability to side-step the banking industry. But then, this makes Bitcoin mostly a cottage industry taking advantage of technology to side-step banking regulations. I see two likely outcomes -- regulations are extended to BC and BC companies start charging as much as banks to compensate for the inherent riskiness of the business, or banks push for regulatory reform while making their services significantly cheaper and faster. I hope for the latter, because if fiat -> fiat transaction is your only goal, cryptocurrency is just an inefficient hack. If I just want to transfer some cash to someone, I'd much rather go directly through my bank (quickly and without fees) than route through another currency just for the hell of it. There's no reason to broaden the attack surface and add yet another middle-man (I mean, entrepreneur). In reality, I expect a combination of the two former scenarios will cripple BC, and that a new era of internet cash transfer services will serve this market instead.
- opinologo 12y ago
  Bank fees are due to the cost of fraudulent operations and chargebacks which doesn't exist in Bitcoins since transactions, once confirmed are not reversible. Instead you can use escrows while paying with Bitcoins. Secondly the Bitcoin network is much more efficient in terms of economic resources used for make transactions possible so you can expect that fees will be smaller as well.
  - nmrm 12y ago
    > transactions, once confirmed are not reversible. Oh wonderful! So if I (as a customer or as a service) make a mistake I'm completely hosed. And since the service isn't insured (yay no regulation), a mistake on one customer's account can harm everyone else. My point was that this business model exposes everyone to unacceptable risk, and therefore isn't sustainable with or without regulation. > Instead you can use escrows while paying with Bitcoins. Escrow is not a competitive advantage. > Secondly the Bitcoin network is much more efficient in terms of economic resources Fiat -> BTC -> Fiat adds an unnecessary link to the Fiat -> Fiat transfer. How could this possibly be more efficient? There are two sets of reasons. The first are essential -- insurance, regulation, etc.. My claim is that BC's competitive advantage in these settings will evaporate with scale. The second set is inessential -- banks got lazy and greedy. Again, at scale BC has no advantage over lean cash transfer startups or even just banks cutting the fat when BC becomes anything close to a threat. For me, the best-case scenario is that BC startups are successful, force banks to reform, and then languish in obscurity since the extra step of indirection isn't necessary for fast/safe/cheap cash transfers.
IgorPartola 12y ago
What would be great is if your company could do its banking in BTC, while you get paid in your fiat currency. Basically, a service that makes worrying about the conversation rates and the conversion process easy. For example, currently you can use your US-based credit card to buy something from the UK. The price will be converted, and you will be charged a small fee, but your credit card company will take care of everything. Doing the same here would be pretty cool.
martingordon 12y ago
IANAL and I haven't kept up with what the Fed have said about Bitcoin, but couldn't every Bitcoin service out there fall under banking regulations as a result of ABC v. Aereo? Basically, if it looks like bank/money transfer service/etc, then it is one, regardless of the underlying technology.
sadris 12y ago
BTC is property, not currency. US has a minimum wage law. Won't work.
billions 12y ago
When wages are paid through Bitcoin, the fundamental Bitcoin incentive loop will be complete. The primary advantages of Bitcoin, including transaction fees and privacy, are lost when converting local currency to/from Bitcoin via markets. When conversion is no longer necessary transaction volumes will climb exponentially.
kernelcurry 12y ago
So, it BitCoin still a viable Currency? I thought it was going down hill...
rob_mccann 12y ago
I tried signing up but it seems like it only accepts US phone numbers :(
kaonashi 12y ago
https://www.bitwage.co/about#t6 https://www.bitwage.co/about#t6

102 points by markmassie 12y ago

I'd refuse the job offer if the company would pay me in bitcoin. Volatility is not acceptable. Having said that, there is a market for companies that hire remote workers and they could use it for automating the process of exchanging, accounting fiat1 -> BTC -> fiat2

yen223 12y ago
The existing banking system, for all its warts, is a proven, secure system for exchanging fiat1 -> fiat2. Bitcoin's use case has to be a lot stronger than merely being a substitute for TTs.
- SG- 12y ago
  If you're willing to deal with delays and exchange rate fees, sure.
  - aw3c2 12y ago
    You mean with Bitcoin?
  - yen223 12y ago
    Bitcoin transactions won't be free forever. The incentive for me to verify your Bitcoin transactions using my electricity and my processor cycles, is that I might get a free Bitcoin in return. This is the basis of Bitcoin mining, and it's a rather elegant solution in my opinion. However, once this supply of mined Bitcoin slows down, where's the incentive for me to continue processing transactions? That's right, transaction fees. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
    - SG- 12y ago
      Transfers of a certain size were never free, the fee however is tiny (0.0001 BTC) and doesn't compare to transfer fees or other international money transfer service fees.
      - exelius 12y ago
        Don't forget that there is a cap on the number of transactions that the blockchain can process in a given amount of time (IIRC it's like 7 transactions per second). That's what we call a scarce resource, which will eventually lead to rent-seeking. I guarantee there will be payment processors that spring up as a result of being able to guarantee priority on your transactions because they have agreements with multiple large bitcoin mining pools. I'm also willing to bet that this fee settles out close to the transfer fee for existing international money transfer services.
        FatalLogic 12y ago
        >Don't forget that there is a cap on the number of transactions that the blockchain can process in a given amount of time (IIRC it's like 7 transactions per second). 7 transactions per second is an arbitrary limit that was imposed to keep things manageable, because Bitcoin is a beta, an experimental system. Transaction fees may rise for the reasons you've described, but referencing the '7 TPS cap' as if it is a real limit makes the situation look far worse than it is. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
    - baddox 12y ago
      Of course there will be transaction fees if Bitcoin sticks around long enough. There are already optional but de facto transaction fees for certain types of transactions. I'm pretty sure those fees are still significantly cheaper than doing equivalent transactions through the traditional banking system.
- mhluongo 12y ago
  We must define secure differently.
bildung 12y ago
Wouldn't want to be paid in BTC either, also because of the volatility. I do think it would be a nice thing for speculative side jobs, though: The extra income gets stashed away automatically, and I would only look again at it a few years later :)
- Daviey 12y ago
  Sure, if you are /actually/ paid using bitcoin. I think what is being suggested is bitcoin is really used as an interim currency, or transfer protocol - to avoid the cost and time of current international banking processes. Therefore, you would still be paid in a real currency, and the underlying number of bitcoins used in the transfer is not relevant. However, this product seems to be suggesting paid it bitcoins - which I would also not be able to accept. :)
SG- 12y ago
There's nothing stopping you from converting the BTC to fiat the moment you get paid, or for a service to automatically do this like BTC merchant services (no idea if this service does it). For merchants Bitpay guarantees that you'll get the exact fiat value transferred to your bank account that the item was originally priced at.
- octo_t 12y ago
  I wouldn't want my salary to be measured in BTC. If you got hired in December, when the price was $900/BTC, at say 1000 BTC pa salary (so $90k pa), these days you would be on a $60k salary.
  - broolstoryco 12y ago
    i think you mean 100 BTC
  - SG- 12y ago
    Nobody uses BTC like this for anything (pay or purchase). At the time of payment you would convert your fiat value into BTC and make your payment, the other side is free to keep the BTC to convert it instantly into their local fiat.
    - yen223 12y ago
      I see this argument a lot. The issue I have with this is that you are merely trading the headaches of international wire transfer with the headache of converting BTC<->fiat. Basically, instead of dealing with a bank, you're dealing with Coinbase. No, this service would useful if I can get paid in Bitcoin, and pay for a majority of my expenses in Bitcoin, without having to convert to fiat at any point. Unfortunately, the Bitcoin ecosystem is nowhere near this sophisticated yet.
      - SG- 12y ago
        I suppose that would be true if exchanging BTC to local fiat was a "headache" for me. In my country and with my experience it hasn't been a headache at all between the local exchanges I can walk up in person or online.

telot 12y ago

Anyone know of the tax benefits/pitfalls of paying (and being paid) in bitcoin?

logicchains 12y ago
It certainly makes tax evasion easier, if that counts. Not as easy as paying/being paid in cash, but far easier than other electronic means of payment (in the sense that it currently offers more anonymity).
Gotperl 12y ago
It isn't legal in most US states. Almost all states have laws that dictate employees working within that state have to be paid in US currency
- greenyoda 12y ago
  And payroll taxes certainly need to be paid in US currency. The IRS and state tax departments don't accept Bitcoin.
  - bduerst 12y ago
    They do, but it's classified as a "barter". If you have the option to get USD instead of BTC, then you're much, much better off getting paid the former.
- baddox 12y ago
  To cite one example, here's Texas: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/LA/htm/LA.61.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/LA/htm/LA.61.htm

piratebroadcast 12y ago

Website looks like shit.

untilHellbanned 12y ago
For a just launched product and having made several websites myself, I have to disagree. I think it is quite professional for a first version. What do you think looks better? Have you seen major bank websites, e.g., Bank of America's? They are really terrible on many levels (usability, performance).

mhluongo 12y ago

They claim to be the first, but what about BitPay? https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-payroll-api https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-payroll-api

practicalpants 12y ago

"Investor Links"... This feels like a 'me too' thing. I don't personally see the value in it either.

amatera 12y ago

I don't get the point. I get BTC for my Job. Beside the heavy variations about how much 1 BTC is in my currency, how do i buy things with that? Sure, some etailers like Dell accept it. But if i ask now my local supermarkt how much BTC is needed to pay, i would see in a lot of overwhelmed faces. Same counts for my rent and so on. So what exactly is the benifit of this service? (Maybe i don't get the whole "bitcoin"-Thing anyway)

droopyEyelids 12y ago

This is awesome because it's another step in the path of creating an autonomous corporation. I can't believe we're actually watching this happen.

Oculus 12y ago

It'd be more interesting to see how the built-in smart contracts in Bitcoin can be used to secure payments/work in the freelancer/client model.

nmrm 12y ago

The rhetoric around explanations of the utility of cryptocurrency has changed a lot in the past few years. These days, the major emphasis is on circumventing the fees/processes associated with banking (as opposed to the libertarian and/or anonymity rhetoric, which dominated a couple years ago). As a witness, this landing page. And I think the rhetoric has converged to the strongest argument -- political ideology aside, the only true substantial marketplace advantage of BC over sovereign currency is the ability to side-step the banking industry. But then, this makes Bitcoin mostly a cottage industry taking advantage of technology to side-step banking regulations. I see two likely outcomes -- regulations are extended to BC and BC companies start charging as much as banks to compensate for the inherent riskiness of the business, or banks push for regulatory reform while making their services significantly cheaper and faster. I hope for the latter, because if fiat -> fiat transaction is your only goal, cryptocurrency is just an inefficient hack. If I just want to transfer some cash to someone, I'd much rather go directly through my bank (quickly and without fees) than route through another currency just for the hell of it. There's no reason to broaden the attack surface and add yet another middle-man (I mean, entrepreneur). In reality, I expect a combination of the two former scenarios will cripple BC, and that a new era of internet cash transfer services will serve this market instead.

opinologo 12y ago
Bank fees are due to the cost of fraudulent operations and chargebacks which doesn't exist in Bitcoins since transactions, once confirmed are not reversible. Instead you can use escrows while paying with Bitcoins. Secondly the Bitcoin network is much more efficient in terms of economic resources used for make transactions possible so you can expect that fees will be smaller as well.
- nmrm 12y ago
  > transactions, once confirmed are not reversible. Oh wonderful! So if I (as a customer or as a service) make a mistake I'm completely hosed. And since the service isn't insured (yay no regulation), a mistake on one customer's account can harm everyone else. My point was that this business model exposes everyone to unacceptable risk, and therefore isn't sustainable with or without regulation. > Instead you can use escrows while paying with Bitcoins. Escrow is not a competitive advantage. > Secondly the Bitcoin network is much more efficient in terms of economic resources Fiat -> BTC -> Fiat adds an unnecessary link to the Fiat -> Fiat transfer. How could this possibly be more efficient? There are two sets of reasons. The first are essential -- insurance, regulation, etc.. My claim is that BC's competitive advantage in these settings will evaporate with scale. The second set is inessential -- banks got lazy and greedy. Again, at scale BC has no advantage over lean cash transfer startups or even just banks cutting the fat when BC becomes anything close to a threat. For me, the best-case scenario is that BC startups are successful, force banks to reform, and then languish in obscurity since the extra step of indirection isn't necessary for fast/safe/cheap cash transfers.

IgorPartola 12y ago

What would be great is if your company could do its banking in BTC, while you get paid in your fiat currency. Basically, a service that makes worrying about the conversation rates and the conversion process easy. For example, currently you can use your US-based credit card to buy something from the UK. The price will be converted, and you will be charged a small fee, but your credit card company will take care of everything. Doing the same here would be pretty cool.

martingordon 12y ago

IANAL and I haven't kept up with what the Fed have said about Bitcoin, but couldn't every Bitcoin service out there fall under banking regulations as a result of ABC v. Aereo? Basically, if it looks like bank/money transfer service/etc, then it is one, regardless of the underlying technology.

sadris 12y ago

BTC is property, not currency. US has a minimum wage law. Won't work.

billions 12y ago

When wages are paid through Bitcoin, the fundamental Bitcoin incentive loop will be complete. The primary advantages of Bitcoin, including transaction fees and privacy, are lost when converting local currency to/from Bitcoin via markets. When conversion is no longer necessary transaction volumes will climb exponentially.

kernelcurry 12y ago

So, it BitCoin still a viable Currency? I thought it was going down hill...

rob_mccann 12y ago

I tried signing up but it seems like it only accepts US phone numbers :(

kaonashi 12y ago

https://www.bitwage.co/about#t6 https://www.bitwage.co/about#t6