5 ms·

I read articles like this, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, s

I read articles like this, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my first thought is about her looks instead of... well, instead of anything else. I'm really glad I don't have kids (yet), and in a lot of ways, I hope I don't have a daughter. I'd rather raise a son to treat women fairly and with respect than to have a daughter who has to live in a world where articles like this are written. But if I had a daughter... I'd do my best to help her be strong and confident, and to make her way successfully in a world where this kind of shit goes on. So senseless. :(

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
hnnewguy 12y ago
>I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought It's pretty much my first thought when I see any woman (and some men). I can't help it, it's the product of us being animals. Who cares. I don't feel guilty, and certainly don't hate myself for it. >I hope I don't have a daughter. Oh brother...
- Gracana 12y ago
  Yeah, the problem is not that having those feelings, it's acting entitled to force those desires onto other people (in whatever form that may take) that's the issue.
  - worldsayshi 12y ago
    Yes, entitlement is certainly a key word here.
- Jemaclus 12y ago
  > Oh brother... Ha. I don't mean that I don't want a daughter... It's just that every time I think about having a daughter, I think about these issues, and it scares the shit out of me. Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts today. That make sense? I really have no preference as far as kids go, it's just that when I read articles like this, the idea of having a daughter seems terrifying.
  - dubfan 12y ago
    > I really have no preference as far as kids go, it's just that when I read articles like this, the idea of having a daughter seems terrifying. This is like the tech equivalent of suburbanites who never go to the city because of all the news reports of murders they see on the nightly news. These outlets take a serious but infrequent problem and exaggerate it into an epidemic for the eyeballs (and hence, ad revenue).
    - Jemaclus 12y ago
      You are not wrong, but I would like to talk to a father who's NOT concerned about that stuff. Just because reality differs from my mental model does not mean that my brain will automatically say "Oh, the odds are overwhelmingly against this, I'll just ignore it." ;)
      - gclaramunt 12y ago
        Yes, is scary... right now, I'm hoping she inherits her mother's confidence :)
  - wutbrodo 12y ago
    > Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts today. I understand the comment you made (downthread) about parents being perhaps irrationally concerned about low-probability dangers to their kids, and totally understand: what I don't understand is why you'd be more afraid of your daughter being raped than your son. According to CDC data[1], the 12-month incidence of rape victimization for men is basically the same as for women. Given that the data doesn't support it, is it perhaps possible that your lopsided fear of rape is rooted in more sexism? A la, "Women are frail creatures that must be protected from all the dangers of the world", but "Men are independent, powerful shapers of their fate". I feel like an attitude like that is more of a concern to your hypothetical future daughter than any of the other concerns you've raised. [1] pp 18-19: 12-month incidence of penetrative rape is 1.1% of women and the data is too noisy for men; non-penetrative rape is 5.3% for men and 5.6% for women.
Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago
I also think the same as you when I see a photo of Marissa Mayer. I don't think that's bad, it's just our instinct (and damn, she is hot). If our ancestors didn't have it we wouldn't be here. And by the way, women have this kind of thoughts when they see a hot man, too. The problem is when people go from thoughts to words or even actions, and act as if we lived in prehistory instead of in a civilized society. Fortunately I think men behaving as disgustingly as in the article are a tiny minority. And unfortunately, that minority can still do a lot of damage. The duty of the rest of us is to not turn a blind eye to this. This kind of trolling cannot be permitted.
sliverstorm 12y ago
It cuts both ways though, doesn't it? Do women who see a photo of Robert Downey Jr see his acting career, his recovery from a drug rut, his philanthropy? Or do they see a hot guy?
samirmenon 12y ago
I don't know, I'm gay, and when I see a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch or Robert Downey Jr, I certainly don't think "Damn, he's accomplished and brilliant"; I think "Damn, he's hot!"
- worldsayshi 12y ago
  I don't think that judging attractiveness in itself automatically leads to poor judgement about the person. You find your partner attractive (hopefully) but that doesn't mean that you see ver as incompetent. The problem is when you you can't keep things separated I suppose.
- oldmanjay 12y ago
  When I see a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch, I think "he looks awfully pinched. He might need more fiber." I'm straight. Not sure what impact that has.
- mikeash 12y ago
  I'm not gay and that's still my first reaction.
dictum 12y ago
> Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my first thought is about her looks instead of... well, instead of anything else. I wouldn't be so apologetic about it. I don't know your sexual orientation, but it's natural to not think of men as hot (or only think it as a second thought) when you're not sexually attracted to men. You don't magically acknowledge Mayer's accomplishments and abilities better if you force yourself and others to not think of her attractiveness. Just don't make someone's attractiveness their only accomplishment. It's easier said than done, but to illustrate, it's okay to think "Damn, she's hot" when you see a photo of a woman, but it's not okay to write a profile that focuses on her attractiveness and distracts from her other attributes; it's okay to think a man is hot, but it's not okay to tell your coworkers about it. Be careful not to confuse systemic sexism with personal sexuality.
_pmf_ 12y ago
> Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. Are you really under the delusion that women do not react that way to an attractive man?
scotty79 12y ago
> ... "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. That's weird. When I see them I think they are good (or at least interestingly) looking and have pleasant voices. I would never think of them as brilliant or accomplished (even though I know they are) because they do something I have no idea about. Just the same when I saw worlds best CEO, lawyer, window cleaner, bus driver, mercenary or whoever. I have no idea and I don't really care what it means to be brilliant and accomplished at those jobs. It might be horrible. It's just too alien for me. When I see Marissa Mayer I have a mixed feelings. I notice she's attractive, and I'm happy this didn't get in a way of her reaching her goals. On the other hand I'm sad that most of the attention she get's from the media is just because she's an attractive woman. I'm also sad that I see a geek that transitioned to management which is always a loss of a good brain. Could people who downvote me explain why and in what way my thoughts are damaged?
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  You got downvoted because you posted an honest description of your own state of mind in a feminism thread. It happens elsewhere as well, not just on HN. Eventually, you learn to just avoid participating in those conversations. Never mind downvoting for individual disagreement; on certain topics you will be downvoted for disturbing the acoustics of the echo chamber. Mammalian brains are hard-wired to notice reproductively relevant physical features first. Retraining your brain to notice anything else is fighting against the thousands of generations of sexual selection that occurred before civilization was even invented. The major problem is that there are no outward physical signs of outstanding competence in your niche of economic specialization, so no effective competition to displace "Wow, that body looks like it would be great for assuring the survival and prosperity of my potential offspring." You cannot wish it away. You can't guilt people into not doing it. It will simply continue as long as our brains are still subjected to the mind-altering chemicals that testicles and ovaries typically produce. You are not a bad person for thinking such things. But, of course, now that civilization has been invented, and we have developed values beyond simple babymaking, it would be inappropriate to speak or act until well after you have engaged the areas of the brain responsible for either rationality or empathy for at least a few seconds first, and possibly both. The proportion of people who actually think before speaking or doing is still depressingly low, and that is why we see stories like this.
NotAtWork 12y ago
> Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. My first thought about Robert Downey Jr is usually something about his hair or attire. We're primed to study the physical appearance of others when we see them. I don't see any reason that it's bad to notice that someone is attractive, has a funny haircut, etc. The key point is that it's just a thing, and to move on to more important things (such as they're accomplished, intelligent, etc) rather than dwelling on physical ones. Insisting you not see that she's attractive seems as weird to me as just focusing on her being attractive.
JamesArgo 12y ago
This is an example of useless guilt. Strive to blind yourself when there are consequences of your bias, otherwise acknowledge it. Beauty leaks into our perceptions of all other personal qualitative - both men and women are affected by it. Short of brain-modifcation, you will find it impossible to disregard beauty so don't feel guilty about it. And don't think "I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Women are just as afflicted by "lookism" as Ted Chaing called it. Men and woman are people. People suck. There are other biases like "force of personality bias", too, where we assume charisma is heavily correlated with correctness, which isn't necessarily true. In terms of solutions, things like blinded hiring and internal prediction markets might help mitigate these. However, if we are going to experience beauty and charm we have to accept the fact that these qualities will affect our opinions of those who possess them. There's no way around this without changing the nature of our perceptions of these phenomena, and thus the phenomena themselves.
alexqgb 12y ago
There's nothing wrong with registering the fact that someone attractive is attractive. Seriously, that's like waking up to blue skies and gentle breeze and saying "wow, what a nice day." The trouble stars when a specific kind of odious and socially toxic person encounters an attractive person. The first thing they do is ignore the "person" and focus on "attractive" as though they were dealing with an inanimate object which can be owned, controlled, manipulated, and eventually discarded. Their response to the presence of the attractive person reflects their basic lack of regard for the other's humanity. These responses are both abusive in their own right, and - if unchecked - contributory to a culture in which the targets of this treatment are freely abused. In other words, the problem isn't about your immediate, natural response. The problem depends on whether you're a respectable human or an contemptuous creep, and thus, how you respond. Needless to say, the assholes make themselves known pretty quickly. The problem gets out of hand when they're allowed to dominate a space or situation.
worldsayshi 12y ago
You can't suppress feelings of attraction but you can control how those feelings influence general perception of that person. It's about realizing that that there is by no necessity correlation between features of a person. It is human to eagerly seek correlations that might not be there.
Fomite 12y ago
The issue is not whether or not you think Marissa Mayer is hot. People are attractive - that's alright. It's whether or not your thoughts about Marissa Mayer stop at "Damn, she's hot" and don't acknowledge her (or any other woman) as anything other than pleasant set dressing for your life.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

hnnewguy 12y ago

>I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought It's pretty much my first thought when I see any woman (and some men). I can't help it, it's the product of us being animals. Who cares. I don't feel guilty, and certainly don't hate myself for it. >I hope I don't have a daughter. Oh brother...

Gracana 12y ago
Yeah, the problem is not that having those feelings, it's acting entitled to force those desires onto other people (in whatever form that may take) that's the issue.
- worldsayshi 12y ago
  Yes, entitlement is certainly a key word here.
Jemaclus 12y ago
> Oh brother... Ha. I don't mean that I don't want a daughter... It's just that every time I think about having a daughter, I think about these issues, and it scares the shit out of me. Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts today. That make sense? I really have no preference as far as kids go, it's just that when I read articles like this, the idea of having a daughter seems terrifying.
- dubfan 12y ago
  > I really have no preference as far as kids go, it's just that when I read articles like this, the idea of having a daughter seems terrifying. This is like the tech equivalent of suburbanites who never go to the city because of all the news reports of murders they see on the nightly news. These outlets take a serious but infrequent problem and exaggerate it into an epidemic for the eyeballs (and hence, ad revenue).
  - Jemaclus 12y ago
    You are not wrong, but I would like to talk to a father who's NOT concerned about that stuff. Just because reality differs from my mental model does not mean that my brain will automatically say "Oh, the odds are overwhelmingly against this, I'll just ignore it." ;)
    - gclaramunt 12y ago
      Yes, is scary... right now, I'm hoping she inherits her mother's confidence :)
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  > Raising a son, I wouldn't have to worry that much about this stuff, and I could focus on helping him help make the world a better place, instead of worrying about whether my daughter is gonna get raped because she wore short shorts today. I understand the comment you made (downthread) about parents being perhaps irrationally concerned about low-probability dangers to their kids, and totally understand: what I don't understand is why you'd be more afraid of your daughter being raped than your son. According to CDC data[1], the 12-month incidence of rape victimization for men is basically the same as for women. Given that the data doesn't support it, is it perhaps possible that your lopsided fear of rape is rooted in more sexism? A la, "Women are frail creatures that must be protected from all the dangers of the world", but "Men are independent, powerful shapers of their fate". I feel like an attitude like that is more of a concern to your hypothetical future daughter than any of the other concerns you've raised. [1] pp 18-19: 12-month incidence of penetrative rape is 1.1% of women and the data is too noisy for men; non-penetrative rape is 5.3% for men and 5.6% for women.

Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago

I also think the same as you when I see a photo of Marissa Mayer. I don't think that's bad, it's just our instinct (and damn, she is hot). If our ancestors didn't have it we wouldn't be here. And by the way, women have this kind of thoughts when they see a hot man, too. The problem is when people go from thoughts to words or even actions, and act as if we lived in prehistory instead of in a civilized society. Fortunately I think men behaving as disgustingly as in the article are a tiny minority. And unfortunately, that minority can still do a lot of damage. The duty of the rest of us is to not turn a blind eye to this. This kind of trolling cannot be permitted.

sliverstorm 12y ago

It cuts both ways though, doesn't it? Do women who see a photo of Robert Downey Jr see his acting career, his recovery from a drug rut, his philanthropy? Or do they see a hot guy?

samirmenon 12y ago

I don't know, I'm gay, and when I see a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch or Robert Downey Jr, I certainly don't think "Damn, he's accomplished and brilliant"; I think "Damn, he's hot!"

worldsayshi 12y ago
I don't think that judging attractiveness in itself automatically leads to poor judgement about the person. You find your partner attractive (hopefully) but that doesn't mean that you see ver as incompetent. The problem is when you you can't keep things separated I suppose.
oldmanjay 12y ago
When I see a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch, I think "he looks awfully pinched. He might need more fiber." I'm straight. Not sure what impact that has.
mikeash 12y ago
I'm not gay and that's still my first reaction.

dictum 12y ago

> Then every time I see a photo of Marissa Mayer, I think, "Damn, she's hot." And then I hate myself for making that my first thought instead of something more equal like, "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. But no, if it's a woman, my first thought is about her looks instead of... well, instead of anything else. I wouldn't be so apologetic about it. I don't know your sexual orientation, but it's natural to not think of men as hot (or only think it as a second thought) when you're not sexually attracted to men. You don't magically acknowledge Mayer's accomplishments and abilities better if you force yourself and others to not think of her attractiveness. Just don't make someone's attractiveness their only accomplishment. It's easier said than done, but to illustrate, it's okay to think "Damn, she's hot" when you see a photo of a woman, but it's not okay to write a profile that focuses on her attractiveness and distracts from her other attributes; it's okay to think a man is hot, but it's not okay to tell your coworkers about it. Be careful not to confuse systemic sexism with personal sexuality.

_pmf_ 12y ago

scotty79 12y ago

> ... "Damn, she's accomplished and brilliant" like I do when I see a photo of Robert Downey Jr or Idris Elba or Benedict Cumberbatch. That's weird. When I see them I think they are good (or at least interestingly) looking and have pleasant voices. I would never think of them as brilliant or accomplished (even though I know they are) because they do something I have no idea about. Just the same when I saw worlds best CEO, lawyer, window cleaner, bus driver, mercenary or whoever. I have no idea and I don't really care what it means to be brilliant and accomplished at those jobs. It might be horrible. It's just too alien for me. When I see Marissa Mayer I have a mixed feelings. I notice she's attractive, and I'm happy this didn't get in a way of her reaching her goals. On the other hand I'm sad that most of the attention she get's from the media is just because she's an attractive woman. I'm also sad that I see a geek that transitioned to management which is always a loss of a good brain. Could people who downvote me explain why and in what way my thoughts are damaged?

logfromblammo 12y ago
You got downvoted because you posted an honest description of your own state of mind in a feminism thread. It happens elsewhere as well, not just on HN. Eventually, you learn to just avoid participating in those conversations. Never mind downvoting for individual disagreement; on certain topics you will be downvoted for disturbing the acoustics of the echo chamber. Mammalian brains are hard-wired to notice reproductively relevant physical features first. Retraining your brain to notice anything else is fighting against the thousands of generations of sexual selection that occurred before civilization was even invented. The major problem is that there are no outward physical signs of outstanding competence in your niche of economic specialization, so no effective competition to displace "Wow, that body looks like it would be great for assuring the survival and prosperity of my potential offspring." You cannot wish it away. You can't guilt people into not doing it. It will simply continue as long as our brains are still subjected to the mind-altering chemicals that testicles and ovaries typically produce. You are not a bad person for thinking such things. But, of course, now that civilization has been invented, and we have developed values beyond simple babymaking, it would be inappropriate to speak or act until well after you have engaged the areas of the brain responsible for either rationality or empathy for at least a few seconds first, and possibly both. The proportion of people who actually think before speaking or doing is still depressingly low, and that is why we see stories like this.

NotAtWork 12y ago

JamesArgo 12y ago

This is an example of useless guilt. Strive to blind yourself when there are consequences of your bias, otherwise acknowledge it. Beauty leaks into our perceptions of all other personal qualitative - both men and women are affected by it. Short of brain-modifcation, you will find it impossible to disregard beauty so don't feel guilty about it. And don't think "I'm glad I'm not one of those guys." Women are just as afflicted by "lookism" as Ted Chaing called it. Men and woman are people. People suck. There are other biases like "force of personality bias", too, where we assume charisma is heavily correlated with correctness, which isn't necessarily true. In terms of solutions, things like blinded hiring and internal prediction markets might help mitigate these. However, if we are going to experience beauty and charm we have to accept the fact that these qualities will affect our opinions of those who possess them. There's no way around this without changing the nature of our perceptions of these phenomena, and thus the phenomena themselves.

alexqgb 12y ago

There's nothing wrong with registering the fact that someone attractive is attractive. Seriously, that's like waking up to blue skies and gentle breeze and saying "wow, what a nice day." The trouble stars when a specific kind of odious and socially toxic person encounters an attractive person. The first thing they do is ignore the "person" and focus on "attractive" as though they were dealing with an inanimate object which can be owned, controlled, manipulated, and eventually discarded. Their response to the presence of the attractive person reflects their basic lack of regard for the other's humanity. These responses are both abusive in their own right, and - if unchecked - contributory to a culture in which the targets of this treatment are freely abused. In other words, the problem isn't about your immediate, natural response. The problem depends on whether you're a respectable human or an contemptuous creep, and thus, how you respond. Needless to say, the assholes make themselves known pretty quickly. The problem gets out of hand when they're allowed to dominate a space or situation.

worldsayshi 12y ago

You can't suppress feelings of attraction but you can control how those feelings influence general perception of that person. It's about realizing that that there is by no necessity correlation between features of a person. It is human to eagerly seek correlations that might not be there.

Fomite 12y ago

The issue is not whether or not you think Marissa Mayer is hot. People are attractive - that's alright. It's whether or not your thoughts about Marissa Mayer stop at "Damn, she's hot" and don't acknowledge her (or any other woman) as anything other than pleasant set dressing for your life.