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2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

141 points by ethana 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
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rgbrenner 12y ago
That's great that the drive unit was covered under warranty.. that was Edmunds 4th drive unit in 30,000 miles. Of course, once it hits 50k miles, the warranty period is over, and it's $15000 to replace it. MotorTrend reported the same problem.. they've already had it replaced twice. http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-huge-unfunded-warranty-problem-due-to-defective-drivetrains?app=1&uprof=45&dr=1 http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-hug...
- baddox 12y ago
  Wow. I've never had a vehicle worth more than $15,000. That's one expensive part.
  - grecy 12y ago
    Your vehicles were very likely worth more than $15,000 when new. You've just never had a new vehicle. Also, engine replacements on new gasoline vehicles run around $10k.
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      True, but when was the last time you heard about a car that needed a whole new engine every 7k miles? It's an interesting question actually, are Tesla motors only really serviceable as a unit? That could be bad news. A new gasoline engine might be $10k, but 99% of the time you just replace a belt or a pulley or a seal, or take off the top and do some machining for a few thousand.
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
        The electric drive motor is about the size of a watermelon and weighs ~70lbs. Its easier to pull it and swap in a new one than to tear it down on-site.
        yaeger 12y ago
        If the alternative is to pay 15k for a new one, I don't care what is easier for the technicians. I care about what is most price friendly for me, the customer. If I think about it, no example comes to mind where I would be okay with paying much much more for something because the relevant technician says "I'll be easier for me if you buy a new one instead of me fixing this."
        gambiting 12y ago
        The electrical motors can be rewound, but it's definitely a process no one will be able to do on site - the motor would need to be sent off to a company that has equipment necessary to do it. Still, it should be cheaper than $15k.
        bitJericho 12y ago
        Perhaps Tesla does or should give a rebate for sending back the old part who can then turn around and refurbish it.
        runamok 12y ago
        I would be almost certain they would have a core fee reimbursement of some sort.
        hueving 12y ago
        A house with mold is easier to burn down and rebuild rather than completely gut it out. That doesn't mean that's the correct decision.
    - josefresco 12y ago
      A new gasoline or diesel "engine" (whatever that means) costs nowhere near $10K. Even at a standard to high shop rate, that cost is on the high side. Also, an "engine" is really a collection of components, unless we're talking about simply the "engine block". Source: Family of petrol-heads.
      - jonknee 12y ago
        You're forgetting labor costs...
      - josefresco 12y ago
        Edit: Not at all forgetting labor costs. With labor, you can have a new motor for mass market vehicle installed for under $10K (US)
      - dragontamer 12y ago
        Yahoo answers concurs. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100310205608AAL5ufv https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100310205608A... With an average labor per hour cost of anywhere from 80 to 120 dollars, you're probably looking at anywhere from 1280 to 1920 for just labor. It will probably take two techs two days to perform the work. Plus the cost of the parts needing for mods, if I had to give you an educated guess I would say you're looking at paying anywhere from 1500 to 3000.
      - grecy 12y ago
        I'm looking at putting a new engine into my Jeep Wrangler right now. A crate HEMI runs ~9k new, and you can't get it installed for less than ~$4k in labor. I'll be able to get a used one for ~$5k Obviously some cars a cheaper, but I wouldn't want to be swapping engines in a BMW or Merc (competitors for the Model S)
        josefresco 12y ago
        A crate HEMI is in no way a "standard" replacement engine for a Jeep Wrangler. While it is a common swap for the Jeep (for hardcore off-roaders), it's equivalent to a high performance motor, for which you should expect to pay a premium.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jusben1369 12y ago
  What's interesting here too is that these costs can come back to haunt you on the leasing side. Tesla's leasing programs "guess" at what the value of the car will be when the lease ends. Should this issue turn out to be true and therefore drive down resale value they'll be buying/getting many of these cars back at prices they can't get when they turn around and resell them. Assuming of course it turns out to be any sort of real issue.
jfb 12y ago
The most interesting thing about this to me is how similar it is to other long-term road test articles -- IOW, how well Tesla has built a car that conforms to people's conceptions about how cars should operate. That's extraordinarily impressive; to me, it's more impressive than the (admittedly impressive) technology in the cars themselves. I'm not a fan of the Musk/Tony Stark schtick, or of SpaceX, or the hagiographic treatment he receives from the technical press, but I am a fan of Tesla as a carmaker.
- bagels 12y ago
  Most long term tests of 1 year/30,000 miles have multiple drivetrain failures?
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    I think your parent is saying "It is a victory that Edmunds is conducting a road test just like with any other car".
    - jfb 12y ago
      Exactly.
      - gress 12y ago
        That seems a little easy-going. Yes, it's good that an electic car is being tested alongside other cars, but it seems as though we have moved beyond that point. In particular Tesla is rightly showing no humility about their cars.
superJoy 12y ago
One car isn't enough to form a true conclusion, but what about 76? [1] This poll is biased in the sense that "0" isn't an option; still, it's an alarming amount of failed drive units. If this is a real problem, it won't scale---they can't keep replacing these things under warranty. [1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Un...
- robterrell 12y ago
  Don't forget about the Toyota RAV4 EV, which uses the same Tesla drive unit. There are lots of reports of similar problems on the RAV4 EV forums. Tesla is a public company, so this cost must make its way into an annual report, right?
- puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
  There is also a sampling bias, people who have experienced problems with the car are more likely to hang around in online forums trying to share their experience.
  - jarek 12y ago
    So the rate the problem is being reported at should be comparable to other premium cars? How does it compare with BMW, an enthusiast brand with high online engagement, many unofficial forums and so on? Audi?
- awalton 12y ago
  1: The people who are most likely to bitch about it are also the people that congregate online. 2: Troll factor - people who just want to see the company fail. 3: Tesla's own professional paranoia. It's cheaper and easier to replace a faulty unit now to inspect it and determine how to make a future unit more resilient than it is to deal with bad press in the future. Then you have some people who baby their cars, and then you have the people who drive cars professionally who are looking for ways they can break things. 76 is not a signal when the company is making 700 cars a week, it's well below the noise threshold. So there's enough points to counter. The simple truth is, anyone who's trying to come to a conclusion on this car this early is stupid. The fact that this test was called "Long-Term" should tell you something about the industry.
timdorr 12y ago
I do believe these results are an outlier. I've had my Model S since December 2012 (one of the first production models in the state of Georgia) and have had no major issues with it. I've only ever had proactive maintenance (12v battery system replacement, coolant pump upgrade, and improved sealant on the sunroof), all of which I haven't paid a dime for. They even provided loaner vehicles while they worked on it. I've driven it up and down the East Coast and a 260 mile straight shot from Atlanta to Savannah. I've heard similar stories from most other owners. It is a tremendously easy car to own, as you barely have to do any work on it. Yes, cases like this will happen. But no different from any other car out there.
- grecy 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, why does it have a 12v battery (& system) ? I always assumed it didn't have one, and that accessories would be powered off the "big" battery.
  - yazaddaruvala 12y ago
    Probably 2 reasons, - Voltage / Current differences. - Abstraction, for safety, testing and debugging purposes.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Better to step down to 12v at one high-efficiency DC-DC converter than try to build accessories that can handle hundreds of volts.
  - anurag 12y ago
    Most of the car's internal electronics (lights, airbags, ignition, touchscreen, instrument cluster etc.) are based on traditional components that require a 12V connection. The 12V battery in the Model S also powers the high voltage contacts that transmit power from the main battery to the motor.
  - darkhorn 12y ago
    Chemical limit of the materials. If you go out to buy battery bigger than 12v, for example 24v, then you will see that it is actually made of 2 12v or may be even 16 1.5v, depends on what material they use to make a battery. I have asked your question about Tesla and low voltage batteries to my friend who was studying as Physics Teaching, he explained me these things.
ck2 12y ago
That car has been driven 30,000 miles in ONE year. How would a gas car do with that kind of non-stop driving?
- cheald 12y ago
  Ask anyone that runs a rental car fleet.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Rental car fleets usually dump their cars between 30K-40K miles, depending on the brand. Its cheaper to just buy new cars and sell the used ones.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  Fine. My dad used to put 150k miles on a mid 90s Ford Escort annually. The car was taken out by a deer at 480k and totaled.
  - Hytosys 12y ago
    Something tells me that the deer's representative would object that it was actually the deer who got taken out by a car.
  - codezero 12y ago
    That almost sounds impossible. Do you mind me asking what he did, driving for so many hours a day? At 150k a year, that amounts to over 410 miles a day, which is 6-10 hours of driving at normal speeds, quite a feat!
    - ufmace 12y ago
      Assuming that the car was driven that much every single day of the year, including weekends, holidays, vacations, family emergencies, etc.
      - 12y ago
cc439 12y ago
Oof, I thought resale value on Jaguars was bad ($70k to $15k in 5 years) but these are basically write-offs after the warranty expires. It's a grand experiment but I don't think the market for $70k assets that lose 90% of their value in 5 years is going to be too hot.
- bradleybuda 12y ago
  Cars aren't really 'assets'. They are consumer goods that may or may not have some resale value, but it's a mistake to think of them as a store of value, or (outside of rare cases) as something that might appreciate in value.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Cars are assets. Depreciating assets, yes. But assets. They are an economic good that produces value (travel). Remember that an asset is not the same thing as a store of value. A store of value can be an asset, of course.
    - Goladus 12y ago
      Cars also have some value as shelter and storage.
- DenisM 12y ago
  You're making up the numbers, and then making up far-fetched conclusions about there being no market, which contradict the reality of the market - if I remember it right, Model S outsold every single luxury sedan in its price bracket.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Your parent is speculating about future sales backlash, if service life proves to be short or repairs too expensive. Initial sales isn't counter-proof to that.
- crdb 12y ago
tdiggity 12y ago
FWIW - I've done 18,000 miles in 1.5 years - 0 reliability issues, so far.
zaroth 12y ago
First, it sounds like Tesla service is pretty great. All that work at $0 cost, done in 1.5 days, is pretty incredible. Good maintenance should bring a positive ROI. Yes, there's a downside, which is out-of-warranty cost, and ultimately resale value. It's both a science experience we are funding here, and a public company. I would love to have seen some hard numbers from the stated financials about warranty costs, and expected future warranty costs. I think it's a good question to ask -- is the longer term service cost of the car understood? Maybe we're just starting to get to that point, but I'm not sure the data is really out there. I do expect of any company that Tesla would be the best at predicting their long-term performance and costs. It's one thing if the car isn't perfect, it's another if it becomes a maintenance nightmare. That could happen only outside of warranty, and not even directly impact their expenses, but it ultimately does impact sales. I would expect if there's an issue that Musk has discussed it at length already. This clearly isn't new. I don't like the scaremongering about the cost of this repair. Did they even ask Tesla how much the repair would cost, and they refused to answer? It certainly doesn't say that they even asked the cost. I doubt it would matter, but I'm sure there's a law that they have to disclose the retail cost of the repair. I know car reviews rarely quote the CEO, but for this specific issue of drive train, I think it's worth getting a quote from the company in the article.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Since the car was under warranty, why is $0 cost so great? Isn't that completely standard for warranty work?
gambiting 12y ago
>>We decided to pass on the annual service It's interesting - I bought a brand new Nissan Qashqai recently, and I HAVE to do an annual inspection to keep the warranty, regardless of the condition of the car. Basically after a year they will look at it, say "yep, it still works" and charge me $300 to stamp my warranty booklet.
marvin 12y ago
I'm guessing these quality issues are caused by the massive amount of fatigue and overtime at both the Tesla Design Studio and the Fremont factory. Tesla employees work 6 days a week, and we're not talking 7-hour days here. So they are able to polish the product really well, but the fatigue shows up in the tiny details that are rushed, leading to long-term quality control issues. Or it could be just growing pains, I suppose. But I've always been critical of Tesla's (and others') reckless attitude towards excessively long hours.
noonespecial 12y ago
I'm going to go ahead and guess here that Tesla is going to have to give up on launching the 4,785 pound Model S to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds. There might not be a possible gearbox that can do that for the life of the car and fit the cost/size constraints of a sedan. Another case of "just because its possible doesn't mean you should". It will be fixed with 3 lines of code (to create a gear friendly torque curve) and a whole lot of PR to explain it.
- Tloewald 12y ago
  Gearbox?
  - noonespecial 12y ago
    Teslas have a single speed gearbox that reduces the electric motor down 9.7-something to 1. This is likely the source of the "milling" noise. These gears degrade rapidly at the insane torque levels of an electric motor starting full blast from stop. Something they would never face from their ICE brethren.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      Seems like something that could be fixed by a software update. Static friction is the same in equivalent spec'd ICEs, so if the Tesla is overtorquing, wouldn't they be able to back off on wattage for a few ms when starting out, and retain virtually the same accelerations?
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        There are not a lot of equivalent spec'd ICE vehicles.
        scott_karana 12y ago
        The BMW 550i[1] has very similar size, peak power, and peak torque ratings compared to the Tesla[2][3], so let's use that as a comparison. Obviously, torque availability at 0 rpm with a flat curve is the notable difference, but remember that launch control in the BMW will also occur at peak power RPMs with a clutch or torque converter taking up the difference in road "RPMs", so it's not that dissimilar a comparison at least in regard to the strength of gearboxes, half-shafts, differentials, axles, CV joints, et cetera. (Consider too that the BMW has changeable gears, not a fixed ratio; the complexity should give Tesla a nod for transmission strength) BMW 550i (base) vs Tesla Model S P85 Cost: $63,900 vs $87,070 Curb Weight: 4277 vs 4647 lbs Peak Power: 445 vs 416 Peak Torque: 480 vs 443 lb-ft 0-60 mph: 4.5 vs 4.2 seconds Top Speed: 130 mph for both So I think my point stands; I suspect a software update in the Tesla could likely alleviate strain to the gearbox, without much tangible sacrifice in specs. I'm curious what "to the wheel" power looks like after the final differential ratio, but have to leave :) 1 http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iSedan/Features_and_Specs/550iSedanSpecifications.aspx http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iS... 2 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs 3 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery
josefresco 12y ago
"We decided to pass on the annual service. The alignment had already been performed when we installed the new tires. System monitoring? We were just there in May when Tesla took care of a laundry list of items. Plus, they were already installing the firmware upgrade as part of the "Courtesy Inspection." Hardware upgrade? Any critical part should be (and was) covered under warranty. More on that later. So the only thing we were missing out on was the AC filters and the wiper blades, not worth $600." I love how they (and most) rationalize skipping this service (aka maintenance is for suckers). The more time a trained mechanic spends under, in, on and thinking about your car the better. Especially when it's a techno-feast such as the Model S.
josefresco 12y ago
Overall the Tesla seems like a Range Rover (owned one, wife worked at dealership). Amazing technical features, but with all that bleeding edge technology comes high maintenance needs. Don't get me wrong, Range Rovers are amazing vehicles to own, but you have to accept that you'll be using that loner-Rover a handful of times each year.
outworlder 12y ago
When you skip annual maintenance of your car, you don't have much to complain about when it breaks. That is why it should be inspected, to catch problems before they become serious.
- cpwright 12y ago
  This kind of stuff is actually what is less likely to make me purchase a Tesla. If it becomes common for these kinds of failures, it isn't a risk that I want to have. What is magic about annual maintenance? In my gasoline car, I change the oil around every 7500 miles (when the car tells me) and rotate the tires at the same time. Total cost about $50 a year. Brakes when they need it for around $200, and when I need it four tires for a little under $1000. Throw in a yearly emissions and safety inspection for $37. Most gasoline cars will have a 5/60, or 10/100 powertrain warranty. But even outside of warranty, I know I am not going to have to pay $15,000 to fix it. I'm also not stuck going to the manufacturer, price shopping is possible and I'm sure would save money over a dealership.
bengoodger 12y ago
The lemon law is not quite as cut and dried as the author of this article states. If you're not happy with your car you should not make this judgment for yourself. Consult an attorney. You can be outside the 18k miles but if the problems began inside the first 18k miles, you qualify. I have personally had a car bought back a couple of months ago. After rejecting the manufacturers' initial offer of monetary compensation and sending a letter to the company on attorney letterhead, the mfr immediately folded and offered to buy it back for the full amount required by the CA lemon law.
bicknergseng 12y ago
So it seems to me like there isn't enough raw data about the auto industry available to consumers. What are the odds of having a lemon Model S like Edmunds' vs the odds of having a GM that drives itself into a tree, for example? I'd obviously rather have to replace parts than have my accelerator go nuts, but is there any real source of data outside of anecdotal evidence via Consumer Reports or relative outliers from subpoenas in the case of Toyota and GM?

141 points by ethana 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

That's great that the drive unit was covered under warranty.. that was Edmunds 4th drive unit in 30,000 miles. Of course, once it hits 50k miles, the warranty period is over, and it's $15000 to replace it. MotorTrend reported the same problem.. they've already had it replaced twice. http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-huge-unfunded-warranty-problem-due-to-defective-drivetrains?app=1&uprof=45&dr=1 http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-hug...

baddox 12y ago
Wow. I've never had a vehicle worth more than $15,000. That's one expensive part.
- grecy 12y ago
  Your vehicles were very likely worth more than $15,000 when new. You've just never had a new vehicle. Also, engine replacements on new gasoline vehicles run around $10k.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    True, but when was the last time you heard about a car that needed a whole new engine every 7k miles? It's an interesting question actually, are Tesla motors only really serviceable as a unit? That could be bad news. A new gasoline engine might be $10k, but 99% of the time you just replace a belt or a pulley or a seal, or take off the top and do some machining for a few thousand.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      The electric drive motor is about the size of a watermelon and weighs ~70lbs. Its easier to pull it and swap in a new one than to tear it down on-site.
      - yaeger 12y ago
        If the alternative is to pay 15k for a new one, I don't care what is easier for the technicians. I care about what is most price friendly for me, the customer. If I think about it, no example comes to mind where I would be okay with paying much much more for something because the relevant technician says "I'll be easier for me if you buy a new one instead of me fixing this."
        gambiting 12y ago
        The electrical motors can be rewound, but it's definitely a process no one will be able to do on site - the motor would need to be sent off to a company that has equipment necessary to do it. Still, it should be cheaper than $15k.
        bitJericho 12y ago
        Perhaps Tesla does or should give a rebate for sending back the old part who can then turn around and refurbish it.
        runamok 12y ago
        I would be almost certain they would have a core fee reimbursement of some sort.
      - hueving 12y ago
        A house with mold is easier to burn down and rebuild rather than completely gut it out. That doesn't mean that's the correct decision.
  - josefresco 12y ago
    A new gasoline or diesel "engine" (whatever that means) costs nowhere near $10K. Even at a standard to high shop rate, that cost is on the high side. Also, an "engine" is really a collection of components, unless we're talking about simply the "engine block". Source: Family of petrol-heads.
    - jonknee 12y ago
      You're forgetting labor costs...
    - josefresco 12y ago
      Edit: Not at all forgetting labor costs. With labor, you can have a new motor for mass market vehicle installed for under $10K (US)
    - dragontamer 12y ago
      Yahoo answers concurs. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100310205608AAL5ufv https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100310205608A... With an average labor per hour cost of anywhere from 80 to 120 dollars, you're probably looking at anywhere from 1280 to 1920 for just labor. It will probably take two techs two days to perform the work. Plus the cost of the parts needing for mods, if I had to give you an educated guess I would say you're looking at paying anywhere from 1500 to 3000.
    - grecy 12y ago
      I'm looking at putting a new engine into my Jeep Wrangler right now. A crate HEMI runs ~9k new, and you can't get it installed for less than ~$4k in labor. I'll be able to get a used one for ~$5k Obviously some cars a cheaper, but I wouldn't want to be swapping engines in a BMW or Merc (competitors for the Model S)
      - josefresco 12y ago
        A crate HEMI is in no way a "standard" replacement engine for a Jeep Wrangler. While it is a common swap for the Jeep (for hardcore off-roaders), it's equivalent to a high performance motor, for which you should expect to pay a premium.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jusben1369 12y ago
What's interesting here too is that these costs can come back to haunt you on the leasing side. Tesla's leasing programs "guess" at what the value of the car will be when the lease ends. Should this issue turn out to be true and therefore drive down resale value they'll be buying/getting many of these cars back at prices they can't get when they turn around and resell them. Assuming of course it turns out to be any sort of real issue.

jfb 12y ago

The most interesting thing about this to me is how similar it is to other long-term road test articles -- IOW, how well Tesla has built a car that conforms to people's conceptions about how cars should operate. That's extraordinarily impressive; to me, it's more impressive than the (admittedly impressive) technology in the cars themselves. I'm not a fan of the Musk/Tony Stark schtick, or of SpaceX, or the hagiographic treatment he receives from the technical press, but I am a fan of Tesla as a carmaker.

bagels 12y ago
Most long term tests of 1 year/30,000 miles have multiple drivetrain failures?
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  I think your parent is saying "It is a victory that Edmunds is conducting a road test just like with any other car".
  - jfb 12y ago
    Exactly.
    - gress 12y ago
      That seems a little easy-going. Yes, it's good that an electic car is being tested alongside other cars, but it seems as though we have moved beyond that point. In particular Tesla is rightly showing no humility about their cars.

superJoy 12y ago

One car isn't enough to form a true conclusion, but what about 76? [1] This poll is biased in the sense that "0" isn't an option; still, it's an alarming amount of failed drive units. If this is a real problem, it won't scale---they can't keep replacing these things under warranty. [1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Un...

robterrell 12y ago
Don't forget about the Toyota RAV4 EV, which uses the same Tesla drive unit. There are lots of reports of similar problems on the RAV4 EV forums. Tesla is a public company, so this cost must make its way into an annual report, right?
puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
There is also a sampling bias, people who have experienced problems with the car are more likely to hang around in online forums trying to share their experience.
- jarek 12y ago
  So the rate the problem is being reported at should be comparable to other premium cars? How does it compare with BMW, an enthusiast brand with high online engagement, many unofficial forums and so on? Audi?
awalton 12y ago
1: The people who are most likely to bitch about it are also the people that congregate online. 2: Troll factor - people who just want to see the company fail. 3: Tesla's own professional paranoia. It's cheaper and easier to replace a faulty unit now to inspect it and determine how to make a future unit more resilient than it is to deal with bad press in the future. Then you have some people who baby their cars, and then you have the people who drive cars professionally who are looking for ways they can break things. 76 is not a signal when the company is making 700 cars a week, it's well below the noise threshold. So there's enough points to counter. The simple truth is, anyone who's trying to come to a conclusion on this car this early is stupid. The fact that this test was called "Long-Term" should tell you something about the industry.

timdorr 12y ago

I do believe these results are an outlier. I've had my Model S since December 2012 (one of the first production models in the state of Georgia) and have had no major issues with it. I've only ever had proactive maintenance (12v battery system replacement, coolant pump upgrade, and improved sealant on the sunroof), all of which I haven't paid a dime for. They even provided loaner vehicles while they worked on it. I've driven it up and down the East Coast and a 260 mile straight shot from Atlanta to Savannah. I've heard similar stories from most other owners. It is a tremendously easy car to own, as you barely have to do any work on it. Yes, cases like this will happen. But no different from any other car out there.

grecy 12y ago
Out of curiosity, why does it have a 12v battery (& system) ? I always assumed it didn't have one, and that accessories would be powered off the "big" battery.
- yazaddaruvala 12y ago
  Probably 2 reasons, - Voltage / Current differences. - Abstraction, for safety, testing and debugging purposes.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Better to step down to 12v at one high-efficiency DC-DC converter than try to build accessories that can handle hundreds of volts.
- anurag 12y ago
  Most of the car's internal electronics (lights, airbags, ignition, touchscreen, instrument cluster etc.) are based on traditional components that require a 12V connection. The 12V battery in the Model S also powers the high voltage contacts that transmit power from the main battery to the motor.
- darkhorn 12y ago
  Chemical limit of the materials. If you go out to buy battery bigger than 12v, for example 24v, then you will see that it is actually made of 2 12v or may be even 16 1.5v, depends on what material they use to make a battery. I have asked your question about Tesla and low voltage batteries to my friend who was studying as Physics Teaching, he explained me these things.

ck2 12y ago

That car has been driven 30,000 miles in ONE year. How would a gas car do with that kind of non-stop driving?

cheald 12y ago
Ask anyone that runs a rental car fleet.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Rental car fleets usually dump their cars between 30K-40K miles, depending on the brand. Its cheaper to just buy new cars and sell the used ones.
Spooky23 12y ago
Fine. My dad used to put 150k miles on a mid 90s Ford Escort annually. The car was taken out by a deer at 480k and totaled.
- Hytosys 12y ago
  Something tells me that the deer's representative would object that it was actually the deer who got taken out by a car.
- codezero 12y ago
  That almost sounds impossible. Do you mind me asking what he did, driving for so many hours a day? At 150k a year, that amounts to over 410 miles a day, which is 6-10 hours of driving at normal speeds, quite a feat!
  - ufmace 12y ago
    Assuming that the car was driven that much every single day of the year, including weekends, holidays, vacations, family emergencies, etc.
    - 12y ago

cc439 12y ago

Oof, I thought resale value on Jaguars was bad ($70k to $15k in 5 years) but these are basically write-offs after the warranty expires. It's a grand experiment but I don't think the market for $70k assets that lose 90% of their value in 5 years is going to be too hot.

bradleybuda 12y ago
Cars aren't really 'assets'. They are consumer goods that may or may not have some resale value, but it's a mistake to think of them as a store of value, or (outside of rare cases) as something that might appreciate in value.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Cars are assets. Depreciating assets, yes. But assets. They are an economic good that produces value (travel). Remember that an asset is not the same thing as a store of value. A store of value can be an asset, of course.
  - Goladus 12y ago
    Cars also have some value as shelter and storage.
DenisM 12y ago
You're making up the numbers, and then making up far-fetched conclusions about there being no market, which contradict the reality of the market - if I remember it right, Model S outsold every single luxury sedan in its price bracket.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Your parent is speculating about future sales backlash, if service life proves to be short or repairs too expensive. Initial sales isn't counter-proof to that.
crdb 12y ago

tdiggity 12y ago

FWIW - I've done 18,000 miles in 1.5 years - 0 reliability issues, so far.

zaroth 12y ago

First, it sounds like Tesla service is pretty great. All that work at $0 cost, done in 1.5 days, is pretty incredible. Good maintenance should bring a positive ROI. Yes, there's a downside, which is out-of-warranty cost, and ultimately resale value. It's both a science experience we are funding here, and a public company. I would love to have seen some hard numbers from the stated financials about warranty costs, and expected future warranty costs. I think it's a good question to ask -- is the longer term service cost of the car understood? Maybe we're just starting to get to that point, but I'm not sure the data is really out there. I do expect of any company that Tesla would be the best at predicting their long-term performance and costs. It's one thing if the car isn't perfect, it's another if it becomes a maintenance nightmare. That could happen only outside of warranty, and not even directly impact their expenses, but it ultimately does impact sales. I would expect if there's an issue that Musk has discussed it at length already. This clearly isn't new. I don't like the scaremongering about the cost of this repair. Did they even ask Tesla how much the repair would cost, and they refused to answer? It certainly doesn't say that they even asked the cost. I doubt it would matter, but I'm sure there's a law that they have to disclose the retail cost of the repair. I know car reviews rarely quote the CEO, but for this specific issue of drive train, I think it's worth getting a quote from the company in the article.

mikeash 12y ago
Since the car was under warranty, why is $0 cost so great? Isn't that completely standard for warranty work?

gambiting 12y ago

>>We decided to pass on the annual service It's interesting - I bought a brand new Nissan Qashqai recently, and I HAVE to do an annual inspection to keep the warranty, regardless of the condition of the car. Basically after a year they will look at it, say "yep, it still works" and charge me $300 to stamp my warranty booklet.

marvin 12y ago

I'm guessing these quality issues are caused by the massive amount of fatigue and overtime at both the Tesla Design Studio and the Fremont factory. Tesla employees work 6 days a week, and we're not talking 7-hour days here. So they are able to polish the product really well, but the fatigue shows up in the tiny details that are rushed, leading to long-term quality control issues. Or it could be just growing pains, I suppose. But I've always been critical of Tesla's (and others') reckless attitude towards excessively long hours.

noonespecial 12y ago

I'm going to go ahead and guess here that Tesla is going to have to give up on launching the 4,785 pound Model S to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds. There might not be a possible gearbox that can do that for the life of the car and fit the cost/size constraints of a sedan. Another case of "just because its possible doesn't mean you should". It will be fixed with 3 lines of code (to create a gear friendly torque curve) and a whole lot of PR to explain it.

Tloewald 12y ago
Gearbox?
- noonespecial 12y ago
  Teslas have a single speed gearbox that reduces the electric motor down 9.7-something to 1. This is likely the source of the "milling" noise. These gears degrade rapidly at the insane torque levels of an electric motor starting full blast from stop. Something they would never face from their ICE brethren.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    Seems like something that could be fixed by a software update. Static friction is the same in equivalent spec'd ICEs, so if the Tesla is overtorquing, wouldn't they be able to back off on wattage for a few ms when starting out, and retain virtually the same accelerations?
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      There are not a lot of equivalent spec'd ICE vehicles.
      - scott_karana 12y ago
        The BMW 550i[1] has very similar size, peak power, and peak torque ratings compared to the Tesla[2][3], so let's use that as a comparison. Obviously, torque availability at 0 rpm with a flat curve is the notable difference, but remember that launch control in the BMW will also occur at peak power RPMs with a clutch or torque converter taking up the difference in road "RPMs", so it's not that dissimilar a comparison at least in regard to the strength of gearboxes, half-shafts, differentials, axles, CV joints, et cetera. (Consider too that the BMW has changeable gears, not a fixed ratio; the complexity should give Tesla a nod for transmission strength) BMW 550i (base) vs Tesla Model S P85 Cost: $63,900 vs $87,070 Curb Weight: 4277 vs 4647 lbs Peak Power: 445 vs 416 Peak Torque: 480 vs 443 lb-ft 0-60 mph: 4.5 vs 4.2 seconds Top Speed: 130 mph for both So I think my point stands; I suspect a software update in the Tesla could likely alleviate strain to the gearbox, without much tangible sacrifice in specs. I'm curious what "to the wheel" power looks like after the final differential ratio, but have to leave :) 1 http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iSedan/Features_and_Specs/550iSedanSpecifications.aspx http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iS... 2 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs 3 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery

josefresco 12y ago

"We decided to pass on the annual service. The alignment had already been performed when we installed the new tires. System monitoring? We were just there in May when Tesla took care of a laundry list of items. Plus, they were already installing the firmware upgrade as part of the "Courtesy Inspection." Hardware upgrade? Any critical part should be (and was) covered under warranty. More on that later. So the only thing we were missing out on was the AC filters and the wiper blades, not worth $600." I love how they (and most) rationalize skipping this service (aka maintenance is for suckers). The more time a trained mechanic spends under, in, on and thinking about your car the better. Especially when it's a techno-feast such as the Model S.

josefresco 12y ago

Overall the Tesla seems like a Range Rover (owned one, wife worked at dealership). Amazing technical features, but with all that bleeding edge technology comes high maintenance needs. Don't get me wrong, Range Rovers are amazing vehicles to own, but you have to accept that you'll be using that loner-Rover a handful of times each year.

outworlder 12y ago

When you skip annual maintenance of your car, you don't have much to complain about when it breaks. That is why it should be inspected, to catch problems before they become serious.

cpwright 12y ago
This kind of stuff is actually what is less likely to make me purchase a Tesla. If it becomes common for these kinds of failures, it isn't a risk that I want to have. What is magic about annual maintenance? In my gasoline car, I change the oil around every 7500 miles (when the car tells me) and rotate the tires at the same time. Total cost about $50 a year. Brakes when they need it for around $200, and when I need it four tires for a little under $1000. Throw in a yearly emissions and safety inspection for $37. Most gasoline cars will have a 5/60, or 10/100 powertrain warranty. But even outside of warranty, I know I am not going to have to pay $15,000 to fix it. I'm also not stuck going to the manufacturer, price shopping is possible and I'm sure would save money over a dealership.

bengoodger 12y ago

The lemon law is not quite as cut and dried as the author of this article states. If you're not happy with your car you should not make this judgment for yourself. Consult an attorney. You can be outside the 18k miles but if the problems began inside the first 18k miles, you qualify. I have personally had a car bought back a couple of months ago. After rejecting the manufacturers' initial offer of monetary compensation and sending a letter to the company on attorney letterhead, the mfr immediately folded and offered to buy it back for the full amount required by the CA lemon law.

bicknergseng 12y ago

So it seems to me like there isn't enough raw data about the auto industry available to consumers. What are the odds of having a lemon Model S like Edmunds' vs the odds of having a GM that drives itself into a tree, for example? I'd obviously rather have to replace parts than have my accelerator go nuts, but is there any real source of data outside of anecdotal evidence via Consumer Reports or relative outliers from subpoenas in the case of Toyota and GM?