3 ms·

As if the job market weren't already too much of a "buyer's market." So many Americans are held hostage by their jobs because of the lack of good unemployment/s

As if the job market weren't already too much of a "buyer's market." So many Americans are held hostage by their jobs because of the lack of good unemployment/severance and the deathgrip of health insurance. I don't see any reason to encourage the situation even more by having some jobs - that are actually jobs - be for no pay. Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also known for giving a person experience.

apotheon 17y ago
> Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also known for giving a person experience. . . . but useless for getting your foot in the job field's door, because you have to already be there to "take advantage" of that "opportunity". Your "solution" completely ignores the catch 22 of needing a job to get experience and needing experience to get a job.
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000. Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing. And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience. An unpaid internship doesn't give you any more experience than running your own business. And honestly, it can reflect poorly on your business acumen and/or drive. If you are relying on the names on your resume, not what you actually did, it's not going to do you much good. It's fine to not have enough drive to do things on your own, to want to take the "default route" to "default success." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I applaud anyone who finds their path to happiness. But. People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. If you want to be rewarded down the road for great acts of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, be an entrepreneur. Bonus: that creates jobs, and builds everyone up, instead of creating competition for 'free' jobs that pay nothing but 'experience.'
  - apotheon 17y ago
    > People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. I'm not calling them "heroic". I'm just annoyed that other people are casting them as "evil". They can be mutually beneficial, and I don't see a problem with that. The "evil" is people trying to prohibit mutually beneficial transactions. By the way, I love the entrepreneurial spirit. I just don't love the "you must be an entrepreneur, one of the lucky people who sneak past the catch 22, or 'paid' by way of taxes" plan. I prefer maximizing opportunity, rather than limiting it, even for people who don't have that entrepreneurial spirit.
    - ahoyhere 17y ago
      Then look at it this way. Barter is taxed, and working for free for "experience" is clearly a form of barter. Unpaid internships still must be taxed. They will probably be taxed at a higher prevailing wage than minimum wage. So, you have tax payment going on, while no employment paying is going on. Meanwhile back at the ranch, rich or reasonably well-off kids can take free internships, which creates more free internships, which creates competition for free internships. And those smart, deserving, motivated kids who can't afford to work utterly for free cannot compete for free internships and instead have to work at McDonald's or some other, less useful job. If the internships are paid, everyone is better off... except, perhaps, the employer who hoped to get free labor. (But who still has to pay taxes, natch.)
      - apotheon 17y ago
        > If the internships are paid, everyone is better off You're assuming that the cost of providing internships is essentially zero. When the likelihood of internships being offered at all (based on cost) is factored into things, your argument falls apart.
        anonjon 17y ago
        And are you assuming that the internships are being provided as a public service? That is laughable. Either the company gets a hire-able employee or they get a whole bunch of work done that no one else was going to do.

apotheon 17y ago

> Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also known for giving a person experience. . . . but useless for getting your foot in the job field's door, because you have to already be there to "take advantage" of that "opportunity". Your "solution" completely ignores the catch 22 of needing a job to get experience and needing experience to get a job.

ahoyhere 17y ago
After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000. Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing. And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience. An unpaid internship doesn't give you any more experience than running your own business. And honestly, it can reflect poorly on your business acumen and/or drive. If you are relying on the names on your resume, not what you actually did, it's not going to do you much good. It's fine to not have enough drive to do things on your own, to want to take the "default route" to "default success." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I applaud anyone who finds their path to happiness. But. People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. If you want to be rewarded down the road for great acts of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, be an entrepreneur. Bonus: that creates jobs, and builds everyone up, instead of creating competition for 'free' jobs that pay nothing but 'experience.'
- apotheon 17y ago
  > People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. I'm not calling them "heroic". I'm just annoyed that other people are casting them as "evil". They can be mutually beneficial, and I don't see a problem with that. The "evil" is people trying to prohibit mutually beneficial transactions. By the way, I love the entrepreneurial spirit. I just don't love the "you must be an entrepreneur, one of the lucky people who sneak past the catch 22, or 'paid' by way of taxes" plan. I prefer maximizing opportunity, rather than limiting it, even for people who don't have that entrepreneurial spirit.
  - ahoyhere 17y ago
    Then look at it this way. Barter is taxed, and working for free for "experience" is clearly a form of barter. Unpaid internships still must be taxed. They will probably be taxed at a higher prevailing wage than minimum wage. So, you have tax payment going on, while no employment paying is going on. Meanwhile back at the ranch, rich or reasonably well-off kids can take free internships, which creates more free internships, which creates competition for free internships. And those smart, deserving, motivated kids who can't afford to work utterly for free cannot compete for free internships and instead have to work at McDonald's or some other, less useful job. If the internships are paid, everyone is better off... except, perhaps, the employer who hoped to get free labor. (But who still has to pay taxes, natch.)
    - apotheon 17y ago
      > If the internships are paid, everyone is better off You're assuming that the cost of providing internships is essentially zero. When the likelihood of internships being offered at all (based on cost) is factored into things, your argument falls apart.
      - anonjon 17y ago
        And are you assuming that the internships are being provided as a public service? That is laughable. Either the company gets a hire-able employee or they get a whole bunch of work done that no one else was going to do.