6 ms·

A Convicted Hacker and an Internet Icon Join Forces to Thwart NSA Spying

48 points by sinak 12y ago

templeos2 12y ago
When you get your head out of your ass, you will see God in the random numbers and crown me king.
saraid216 12y ago
I feel like we need to start a new meme of "they thwart spies!" along the lines of "they fight crime!"
hackuser 12y ago
Dark Mail is written by someone who was convicted of helping to steal credit card information?!
- rakoo 12y ago
  Who cares ? If the protocol is open and good, and we can build open source implementations, no one cares about the life of the creator.
  - icantthinkofone 12y ago
    The question is, can you trust someone who has broken trust in the past and in a major way?
    - MadMoogle 12y ago
      Do you still use google products?
      - icantthinkofone 12y ago
        Absolutely! I wouldn't have it any other way.
    - saraid216 12y ago
      The point of "open" is that you don't have to.
      - hackuser 12y ago
        > The point of "open" is that you don't have to. In theory, but realistically very little FOSS is audited, and audits are not perfect (and we have to trust the auditor). We have to trust the authors.
        rakoo 12y ago
        While it's true that softwares are rarely audited, protocols are much more analyzed because they are expected to be read by humans. Fortunately, the DarkMail authors want to create a new protocol and have it interoperable, so there should be an open protocol; that's the most important thing, and we must keep our focus on it.
        saraid216 12y ago
        If you decline to audit FOSS yourself, you can't complain about being forced to trust someone else.
    - sarciszewski 12y ago
      How exactly did Stephen Watt break trust? He didn't steal any credit cards, he didn't profit from other people stealing credit cards, and he allegedly was not aware of the purpose for that sniffer program. He's an old-school black hat who broke into systems for the lulz, not for financial gain. (Ever heard of ~el8?). His mistake was believing his associates shared his priorities. Not only that, but when he was being pressured and threatened by the government, he refused to cooperate. I think that's commendable and demonstrates real integrity.
      - Mandatum 12y ago
        Do you really believe he didn't know what it was being used for? He acknowledged it was using to sniff traffic, if not for credit-cards? What? Account details? Unless there were logs or talks of them doing it for purely academic/educational purposes, which as we know Gonzalez isn't that "sort" of person, it would be unacceptable to think someone of Watt's intellect wouldn't be able to put 2-and-2 together. He's been around the scene. He knows the scene. He's been a part of the scene. I agree in terms of law, this all goes into a very grey and fuzzy area - if he had a better lawyer he may have came out in a different situation. Looking at the recent backlash for hackers, he may be looking at an apology (or even a payout) in the future.
nezza-_- 12y ago
Has nothing to do with the Dark Mail Alliance, right? http://darkmail.info/ http://darkmail.info/
- 01Michael10 12y ago
  It is the one and same if you had read the link you provided... The Dark Mail Alliance lists Ladar Levison as part of the team who is one of the people mentioned in the article. The same name thing may be a giveaway also...
GrinningFool 12y ago
Watt once had a lucrative Wall Street career coding software for real-time stock-trading systems until he wrote a packet- sniffing program for a long-time friend and found himself embroiled in a multi-million-dollar bank card heist that netted him a two-year prison term. I love how puff-pieces always trivialize the things that would run counter to their narrative. He didn't really do anything wrong - he was just helping his friend[0][1]. People do what they do, and that's cool - but let's not pretend he just accidentally found himself tripped up in some fraud situation, oops don't know how that happened hey look an awesome product in which trust is essential! 0. There's a slightly more complete look here, though not focused on Watt: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-biggest-cybercrime-of-all-time-20101111 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-b... 1. Wired did a similar sympathetic piece last year in which they made Watt's past seem like a minor misdeed (some wording is essentially identical to what I quoted above): http://www.wired.com/2013/04/stephen-watt-stalked-by-past/ http://www.wired.com/2013/04/stephen-watt-stalked-by-past/
- Mandatum 12y ago
  In response to the Rolling Stone article: Patrick's job was to probe corporate networks for vulnerabilities to a malware attack known as a "sequel injection," which overwhelms the victim's system with meaningless commands until the system gives up and defaults to using the malicious code. Sequel injection, huh? :P
  - girvo 12y ago
    That... wow. That's exactly what "Sequel injection" is, basically, you overwhelm the target with "v2.0", or the "sequel", if you will, and it just gives up and runs that code, thus "injecting" the "sequel". Holy crap.
    - Mandatum 12y ago
      Yeah aside from that and a small number of other gems, it's a really good article. Read it a long time ago when it was first published, but definitely one I can re-read for the pure enjoyment factor.
eliteraspberrie 12y ago
Watt wasn't convicted for fraud, he was convicted for not snitching. I, for one, trust the man's integrity, and I'll judge his code when I see it.
- Mandatum 12y ago
  Stephen Watt pleaded guilty to writing the sniffer code that proved key to Albert's operation but continues to insist that he never knew it was being used for illegal purposes, noting that he made no money from Albert's crimes. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-biggest-cybercrime-of-all-time-20101111?page=6 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-b...

48 points by sinak 12y ago

templeos2 12y ago

When you get your head out of your ass, you will see God in the random numbers and crown me king.

saraid216 12y ago

I feel like we need to start a new meme of "they thwart spies!" along the lines of "they fight crime!"

hackuser 12y ago

Dark Mail is written by someone who was convicted of helping to steal credit card information?!

rakoo 12y ago
Who cares ? If the protocol is open and good, and we can build open source implementations, no one cares about the life of the creator.
- icantthinkofone 12y ago
  The question is, can you trust someone who has broken trust in the past and in a major way?
  - MadMoogle 12y ago
    Do you still use google products?
    - icantthinkofone 12y ago
      Absolutely! I wouldn't have it any other way.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    The point of "open" is that you don't have to.
    - hackuser 12y ago
      > The point of "open" is that you don't have to. In theory, but realistically very little FOSS is audited, and audits are not perfect (and we have to trust the auditor). We have to trust the authors.
      - rakoo 12y ago
        While it's true that softwares are rarely audited, protocols are much more analyzed because they are expected to be read by humans. Fortunately, the DarkMail authors want to create a new protocol and have it interoperable, so there should be an open protocol; that's the most important thing, and we must keep our focus on it.
      - saraid216 12y ago
        If you decline to audit FOSS yourself, you can't complain about being forced to trust someone else.
  - sarciszewski 12y ago
    How exactly did Stephen Watt break trust? He didn't steal any credit cards, he didn't profit from other people stealing credit cards, and he allegedly was not aware of the purpose for that sniffer program. He's an old-school black hat who broke into systems for the lulz, not for financial gain. (Ever heard of ~el8?). His mistake was believing his associates shared his priorities. Not only that, but when he was being pressured and threatened by the government, he refused to cooperate. I think that's commendable and demonstrates real integrity.
    - Mandatum 12y ago
      Do you really believe he didn't know what it was being used for? He acknowledged it was using to sniff traffic, if not for credit-cards? What? Account details? Unless there were logs or talks of them doing it for purely academic/educational purposes, which as we know Gonzalez isn't that "sort" of person, it would be unacceptable to think someone of Watt's intellect wouldn't be able to put 2-and-2 together. He's been around the scene. He knows the scene. He's been a part of the scene. I agree in terms of law, this all goes into a very grey and fuzzy area - if he had a better lawyer he may have came out in a different situation. Looking at the recent backlash for hackers, he may be looking at an apology (or even a payout) in the future.

nezza-_- 12y ago

Has nothing to do with the Dark Mail Alliance, right? http://darkmail.info/ http://darkmail.info/

01Michael10 12y ago
It is the one and same if you had read the link you provided... The Dark Mail Alliance lists Ladar Levison as part of the team who is one of the people mentioned in the article. The same name thing may be a giveaway also...

GrinningFool 12y ago

Watt once had a lucrative Wall Street career coding software for real-time stock-trading systems until he wrote a packet- sniffing program for a long-time friend and found himself embroiled in a multi-million-dollar bank card heist that netted him a two-year prison term. I love how puff-pieces always trivialize the things that would run counter to their narrative. He didn't really do anything wrong - he was just helping his friend[0][1]. People do what they do, and that's cool - but let's not pretend he just accidentally found himself tripped up in some fraud situation, oops don't know how that happened hey look an awesome product in which trust is essential! 0. There's a slightly more complete look here, though not focused on Watt: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-biggest-cybercrime-of-all-time-20101111 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-b... 1. Wired did a similar sympathetic piece last year in which they made Watt's past seem like a minor misdeed (some wording is essentially identical to what I quoted above): http://www.wired.com/2013/04/stephen-watt-stalked-by-past/ http://www.wired.com/2013/04/stephen-watt-stalked-by-past/

Mandatum 12y ago
In response to the Rolling Stone article: Patrick's job was to probe corporate networks for vulnerabilities to a malware attack known as a "sequel injection," which overwhelms the victim's system with meaningless commands until the system gives up and defaults to using the malicious code. Sequel injection, huh? :P
- girvo 12y ago
  That... wow. That's exactly what "Sequel injection" is, basically, you overwhelm the target with "v2.0", or the "sequel", if you will, and it just gives up and runs that code, thus "injecting" the "sequel". Holy crap.
  - Mandatum 12y ago
    Yeah aside from that and a small number of other gems, it's a really good article. Read it a long time ago when it was first published, but definitely one I can re-read for the pure enjoyment factor.

eliteraspberrie 12y ago

Watt wasn't convicted for fraud, he was convicted for not snitching. I, for one, trust the man's integrity, and I'll judge his code when I see it.

Mandatum 12y ago
Stephen Watt pleaded guilty to writing the sniffer code that proved key to Albert's operation but continues to insist that he never knew it was being used for illegal purposes, noting that he made no money from Albert's crimes. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-biggest-cybercrime-of-all-time-20101111?page=6 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sex-drugs-and-the-b...