8 ms·

Leading HIV researchers lost as flight MH17 is downed in Ukraine

199 points by antman 12y ago

wilsonfiifi 12y ago
Excuse my ignorance but I would have thought that the Ukrainian airspace would be restricted due to the ongoing 'conflict'. Surely they could have used a different route no?
- morkbot 12y ago
  The European air traffic control body, Eurocontrol, said Ukrainian authorities had banned aircraft from flying at 32,000ft or below and the doomed aircraft had been cruising above that, at 33,000ft – however this apparently still left it within range of the sophisticated surface-to-air weaponry that pro-Russia forces have been using recently to target Ukrainian military aircraft. All civilian flights have now been barred from the area of eastern Ukraine. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-on-russia-as-world-demands-answers-over-planes-destruction http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-o...
  - wilsonfiifi 12y ago
    So it didn't occur to either the Ukrainian authorities or Eurocontrol that due to the existence of advanced weaponry and the remote possibility that either faction could gain access to them, civilian flights should be barred from that airspace? Was the economic impact of rerouting flights so high that they were willing to take the risk with civilians?
    - morkbot 12y ago
      This is targeted in the same article, although no clear answer is given: Questions were raised as to why Malaysia Airlines had continued to fly over such a volatile region, where separatists were known to be shooting at aircraft. Qantas, the Australian carrier, said it had been steering clear of the area by 400 nautical miles for several months. Malaysia Airlines said that after the crash it immediately altered its flight paths, while other airlines either did likewise or emphasised they had already been taking alternative routes. "With immediate effect, all European flights operated by Malaysia Airlines will be taking alternative routes avoiding the usual route," said a statement from the airline. It added: "The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."
    - rasz_pl 12y ago
      if you look at the mh17 flight patch for the last couple of weeks you will notice that they all flew different route (west or over the sea of azov). This downed plane took extra steps (100km to the east) to fly over the war zone, almost as if pilots wanted selfies with russian troops in the background. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/10...
      - yread 12y ago
        That's not really true, check out this comparison of flight paths: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4fbce571a89fe76a609bde4b925f389d4e0d4d54/flight-paths-ai2html-460.png http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4f... It was a route taken by SQ ,KL and others EDIT: oops sorry I haven't realized the labels aren't part of the image, I took it from here http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/m...
        rasz_pl 12y ago
        Maybe it was (I didnt check other airlines), but this flight always flew at least 100km to the west. Might be weather conditions this particular day pushing all the planes north east. I have zero idea about air traffic, is there an airport doing flight control for the region that would reroute all the planes over the effing war zone because of some rain clouds?
        yread 12y ago
        > I didnt check other airlines Perhaps I can point you to the link in the comment to which you've replied which plots the courses of flights of Malaysian and other airlines from the past weeks so that you can check?!
      - myth_drannon 12y ago
        Sounds like 1983 all over again with South Korean flight ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 ). So the plan : 1)Divert the plane into a restricted zone https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/489926167731142656/photo/1 https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/48992616773114265... 2)The other side responds with a missile thinking it's a military plane 3)Profit
    - dingaling 12y ago
      The NOTAM is pretty standard for overflying a small-arms / light-weapons conflict zone. Mortar and medium artillery can loft up to 30,000 ft on high charges. It obviously didn't consider the use of dedicated anti-aircraft weapons. But even primitive shoulder-launched MANPADS like the original Strela-2 have been recorded striking easy targets over 24,000 ft ( a Hunter over Oman in the 1970s ).
macspoofing 12y ago
Just adds to the tragedy. What a disaster.
NietTim 12y ago
Man, that'll get the conspiracies going... What a tragedy
- tzaman 12y ago
  That was my first thought too - I don't really believe in conspiracies, but this one got me thinking immediately.
  - capisce 12y ago
    What did it get you thinking??
    - tzaman 12y ago
      Well, AIDS/HIV has always had this reputation of being created by man (didn't do any research on it personally though, so this is based purely on word of mouth, I guess). So when I discovered the news it occurred to me that it's quite a big coincidence that the leading scientists die in a plane crash, especially now, that we're starting to see some people getting successfully cured of HIV. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted above.
      - theintern 12y ago
        Because it's ridiculous to think this is a conspiracy? It's a complete coincidence. On any long range flight like this you're likely to find a big bunch of people heading to some conference or other. Especially one like this that's a convenient link between Europe and Asia. It's also 100 people from a conference of 25,000.
      - yen223 12y ago
        On any given flight you'd probably find a large number of X, where X = leading AIDS experts, semiconductor researchers (MH370 anyone?), football players, etc. You could fit a conspiracy theory for any plane crash.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
tinfoilman 12y ago
Ah look at that, 100 HIV researches lost in a Pro Russian Rebel attack. Seems like their perfect target to be fair given Russians stance on it all. Before anyone says we don't know it was pro Russian rebels. I think it is pretty safe to say it is, we have the rebels admitting on twitter 1-2 weeks ago they stole a medium range anti air craft. Then yesterday just at the plane went down they twitted they get a Ukrainian military cargo plane, The tweets of both the capture of the medium range anti air gun AND the downing on the military jet both go missing, and today a new statement of it was not them. But what the fuck is anyone going to do, Russia don't care and their people are behind them 100%. A shift is coming....
- TausAmmer 12y ago
  They were expecting military plane, they were told THIS plane is military plane and they shot it down. And after that, they were very surprised to find sea of bodies, not military equipment.
  - Holbein 12y ago
    What a load of bullcrap... "where told". If you have a equipment to down planes, it's also your duty to have the proper radar equipment to reliably see what's up there, something that those Rebels did not have. They just stole equipment out of their league, did not know how to handle it and killed 300 innocent travelers.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
      This is right. It has been pointed out that both the Ukrainian government and the rebels now have the capability to do this, the Ukrainian government has had it for a long time, without incident. Because under a government it is operated by soldiers who follow procedures and have access to the data about known civilian flights.
      - runlevel1 12y ago
        Tragically, the Ukrainian government has had an incident. On October 4, 2001 they accidentally shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, killing 78.[1] For what it's worth, I do agree with your sentiment. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
digita88 12y ago
It is a political mess as well as a tragedy. Malaysia is still dealing with the extra negative press because it's a Malaysian Airlines flight. The plane fell on Ukraine despite it being shot down by pro-Russian separatists and now Putin is juggling the responsibility to the Ukraine because that is where the plane fell.
- estebank 12y ago
  The plane fell on the pro-russian "independent" part of Ukraine self-proclaimed as Donetsk People's Republic[1]. If the Kiev government wanted to get where the plane fell, as it stands now, it'd have to be a military incursion into enemy territory. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic
- yen223 12y ago
  Malaysia is not going to be a major player in this particular incident. We are too small to be of any significance.
nomercy400 12y ago
Wait a minute, - Why are 100 HIV experts on the same plane in the first place? Hasn't somebody realized this is a risk and usually considered 'a bad idea'? - Why are they all flying across the entire world (Amsterdam-Melbourne) to visit a conference? If you have to fly 100 people around the world for just a conference, isn't it a better idea to hold the conference in a location nearby, say Europe (depends on how many are coming from Australia of course)? Of course, it's absolutely terrible what happened yesterday and the mood here (NL) isn't great. Don't get me wrong on that part.
- digita88 12y ago
  Having been involved in international conferences as an attendee, the conference organiser takes care of the flights, accommodation and conference tickets either in-house or outsourced to another company that specialises in this.
- oh 12y ago
  "If you have to fly 100 people around the world for just a conference, isn't it a better idea to hold the conference in a location nearby, say Europe (depends on how many are coming from Australia of course)?" The International AIDS Conference happens in a different city every two years, each time highlighting the successes and challenges of that particular region of the world in dealing with HIV/AIDS. It's not unusual at all for a large number of delegates to have to fly across the world.
- codeduck 12y ago
  1. They're all on the same flight because it's possibly the most convenient one for reaching Melbourne. 2. The conference is for 25000 delegates from all over the world, and has been running since 1985 when the first one was held in Atlanta. See here for a list of cities that have hosted it : http://www.aids2012.org/WebContent/File/History%20of%20the%20IAC.pdf http://www.aids2012.org/WebContent/File/History%20of%20the%2... Nobody factors aircraft accidents or intentional shoot-downs for conferences like these, for the very reason that air travel is so ridiculously safe that it is pointless adding the additional logistical cost to do so.
  - 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
polysics 12y ago
This is what we get when humanity at large is wasting time on killing each other over petty things such as race, land, oil and religion.
- ars 12y ago
  Is there something non-petty we should be killing each other over?
  - paulbaumgart 12y ago
    What are you, a compiler? :-P
- ricardolopes 12y ago
  Exactly. Thus we have get what we deserve, less scientific advancements and quality of life. If only we could get rid of his perpetual self-damaging instinct.
  - waps 12y ago
    And if Ukraine stops fighting now ... all will be solved. Oh wait. Besides if we got rid of "self-damaging instincts", there'd be other, equally horrible problems we'd hit. Competing, of course, is why evolution works, and thus if life, as a whole, got rid of this "self-damaging instincts" we'd be nothing but simple bacteria, if that. And the problem with statements like this is that they're not really moral. Neutrality is nothing more than a vote that says the strongest party can do whatever it wants.
    - deciplex 12y ago
      So, why did humans evolve language and to live in groups, be social, etc? And, what makes you think evolution is intrinsically good, or that it can decide the best path forward for humans? Isn't evolution intrinsically nothing at all?
      - 12y ago
robhu 12y ago
Does anyone know why the MH17 story was kept off HN yesterday? I kept seeing it appear in new and then on the front page and then it would vanish. I guess admins were deleting it? Is there a policy reason why it isn't something 'good hackers would find interesting' ?
- waps 12y ago
  A lot of dupes were removed, but not the original discussion : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048083 (doesn't have a reference to MH17, no idea where B772 comes from)
  - danieldk 12y ago
    But it was heavily flagged. After an hour, it was at a far lower position than other stories with a fraction of the votes of the same age (e.g. the Nimrod link).
- davidw 12y ago
  Because of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." For me, the "interesting" thing means a deeper knowledge of some facet of the world, not shallow reporting of breaking news.
  - robhu 12y ago
    IIRC when the other Malaysian Airlines plane went missing that went up on HN, and that was before all the 'hacker friendly' tracking technique stories.
    - davidw 12y ago
      People are unfortunately probably going to post stuff like this, guidelines or not. It gets flagged and or moderated down pretty quickly in most cases, though.
polyx 12y ago
Is it only me or does this news story has conspiracy written all over it?
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  It's only you.
ulfw 12y ago
That's just horrible :(
aspanda 12y ago
Though grim but i can't help but wonder about the mythological philosophy "everything happens for the good and for a reason". Extremely uncanny...condolences to the people onboard.

199 points by antman 12y ago

Excuse my ignorance but I would have thought that the Ukrainian airspace would be restricted due to the ongoing 'conflict'. Surely they could have used a different route no?

morkbot 12y ago
The European air traffic control body, Eurocontrol, said Ukrainian authorities had banned aircraft from flying at 32,000ft or below and the doomed aircraft had been cruising above that, at 33,000ft – however this apparently still left it within range of the sophisticated surface-to-air weaponry that pro-Russia forces have been using recently to target Ukrainian military aircraft. All civilian flights have now been barred from the area of eastern Ukraine. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-on-russia-as-world-demands-answers-over-planes-destruction http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-o...
- wilsonfiifi 12y ago
  So it didn't occur to either the Ukrainian authorities or Eurocontrol that due to the existence of advanced weaponry and the remote possibility that either faction could gain access to them, civilian flights should be barred from that airspace? Was the economic impact of rerouting flights so high that they were willing to take the risk with civilians?
  - morkbot 12y ago
    This is targeted in the same article, although no clear answer is given: Questions were raised as to why Malaysia Airlines had continued to fly over such a volatile region, where separatists were known to be shooting at aircraft. Qantas, the Australian carrier, said it had been steering clear of the area by 400 nautical miles for several months. Malaysia Airlines said that after the crash it immediately altered its flight paths, while other airlines either did likewise or emphasised they had already been taking alternative routes. "With immediate effect, all European flights operated by Malaysia Airlines will be taking alternative routes avoiding the usual route," said a statement from the airline. It added: "The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."
  - rasz_pl 12y ago
    if you look at the mh17 flight patch for the last couple of weeks you will notice that they all flew different route (west or over the sea of azov). This downed plane took extra steps (100km to the east) to fly over the war zone, almost as if pilots wanted selfies with russian troops in the background. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/10...
    - yread 12y ago
      That's not really true, check out this comparison of flight paths: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4fbce571a89fe76a609bde4b925f389d4e0d4d54/flight-paths-ai2html-460.png http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4f... It was a route taken by SQ ,KL and others EDIT: oops sorry I haven't realized the labels aren't part of the image, I took it from here http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/m...
      - rasz_pl 12y ago
        Maybe it was (I didnt check other airlines), but this flight always flew at least 100km to the west. Might be weather conditions this particular day pushing all the planes north east. I have zero idea about air traffic, is there an airport doing flight control for the region that would reroute all the planes over the effing war zone because of some rain clouds?
        yread 12y ago
        > I didnt check other airlines Perhaps I can point you to the link in the comment to which you've replied which plots the courses of flights of Malaysian and other airlines from the past weeks so that you can check?!
    - myth_drannon 12y ago
      Sounds like 1983 all over again with South Korean flight ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 ). So the plan : 1)Divert the plane into a restricted zone https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/489926167731142656/photo/1 https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/48992616773114265... 2)The other side responds with a missile thinking it's a military plane 3)Profit
  - dingaling 12y ago
    The NOTAM is pretty standard for overflying a small-arms / light-weapons conflict zone. Mortar and medium artillery can loft up to 30,000 ft on high charges. It obviously didn't consider the use of dedicated anti-aircraft weapons. But even primitive shoulder-launched MANPADS like the original Strela-2 have been recorded striking easy targets over 24,000 ft ( a Hunter over Oman in the 1970s ).

macspoofing 12y ago

Just adds to the tragedy. What a disaster.

NietTim 12y ago

Man, that'll get the conspiracies going... What a tragedy

tzaman 12y ago
That was my first thought too - I don't really believe in conspiracies, but this one got me thinking immediately.
- capisce 12y ago
  What did it get you thinking??
  - tzaman 12y ago
    Well, AIDS/HIV has always had this reputation of being created by man (didn't do any research on it personally though, so this is based purely on word of mouth, I guess). So when I discovered the news it occurred to me that it's quite a big coincidence that the leading scientists die in a plane crash, especially now, that we're starting to see some people getting successfully cured of HIV. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted above.
    - theintern 12y ago
      Because it's ridiculous to think this is a conspiracy? It's a complete coincidence. On any long range flight like this you're likely to find a big bunch of people heading to some conference or other. Especially one like this that's a convenient link between Europe and Asia. It's also 100 people from a conference of 25,000.
    - yen223 12y ago
      On any given flight you'd probably find a large number of X, where X = leading AIDS experts, semiconductor researchers (MH370 anyone?), football players, etc. You could fit a conspiracy theory for any plane crash.
snowwrestler 12y ago

tinfoilman 12y ago

Ah look at that, 100 HIV researches lost in a Pro Russian Rebel attack. Seems like their perfect target to be fair given Russians stance on it all. Before anyone says we don't know it was pro Russian rebels. I think it is pretty safe to say it is, we have the rebels admitting on twitter 1-2 weeks ago they stole a medium range anti air craft. Then yesterday just at the plane went down they twitted they get a Ukrainian military cargo plane, The tweets of both the capture of the medium range anti air gun AND the downing on the military jet both go missing, and today a new statement of it was not them. But what the fuck is anyone going to do, Russia don't care and their people are behind them 100%. A shift is coming....

TausAmmer 12y ago
They were expecting military plane, they were told THIS plane is military plane and they shot it down. And after that, they were very surprised to find sea of bodies, not military equipment.
- Holbein 12y ago
  What a load of bullcrap... "where told". If you have a equipment to down planes, it's also your duty to have the proper radar equipment to reliably see what's up there, something that those Rebels did not have. They just stole equipment out of their league, did not know how to handle it and killed 300 innocent travelers.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
    This is right. It has been pointed out that both the Ukrainian government and the rebels now have the capability to do this, the Ukrainian government has had it for a long time, without incident. Because under a government it is operated by soldiers who follow procedures and have access to the data about known civilian flights.
    - runlevel1 12y ago
      Tragically, the Ukrainian government has had an incident. On October 4, 2001 they accidentally shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, killing 78.[1] For what it's worth, I do agree with your sentiment. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

digita88 12y ago

It is a political mess as well as a tragedy. Malaysia is still dealing with the extra negative press because it's a Malaysian Airlines flight. The plane fell on Ukraine despite it being shot down by pro-Russian separatists and now Putin is juggling the responsibility to the Ukraine because that is where the plane fell.

estebank 12y ago
The plane fell on the pro-russian "independent" part of Ukraine self-proclaimed as Donetsk People's Republic[1]. If the Kiev government wanted to get where the plane fell, as it stands now, it'd have to be a military incursion into enemy territory. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic
yen223 12y ago
Malaysia is not going to be a major player in this particular incident. We are too small to be of any significance.

nomercy400 12y ago

Wait a minute, - Why are 100 HIV experts on the same plane in the first place? Hasn't somebody realized this is a risk and usually considered 'a bad idea'? - Why are they all flying across the entire world (Amsterdam-Melbourne) to visit a conference? If you have to fly 100 people around the world for just a conference, isn't it a better idea to hold the conference in a location nearby, say Europe (depends on how many are coming from Australia of course)? Of course, it's absolutely terrible what happened yesterday and the mood here (NL) isn't great. Don't get me wrong on that part.

digita88 12y ago
Having been involved in international conferences as an attendee, the conference organiser takes care of the flights, accommodation and conference tickets either in-house or outsourced to another company that specialises in this.
oh 12y ago
"If you have to fly 100 people around the world for just a conference, isn't it a better idea to hold the conference in a location nearby, say Europe (depends on how many are coming from Australia of course)?" The International AIDS Conference happens in a different city every two years, each time highlighting the successes and challenges of that particular region of the world in dealing with HIV/AIDS. It's not unusual at all for a large number of delegates to have to fly across the world.
codeduck 12y ago
1. They're all on the same flight because it's possibly the most convenient one for reaching Melbourne. 2. The conference is for 25000 delegates from all over the world, and has been running since 1985 when the first one was held in Atlanta. See here for a list of cities that have hosted it : http://www.aids2012.org/WebContent/File/History%20of%20the%20IAC.pdf http://www.aids2012.org/WebContent/File/History%20of%20the%2... Nobody factors aircraft accidents or intentional shoot-downs for conferences like these, for the very reason that air travel is so ridiculously safe that it is pointless adding the additional logistical cost to do so.
- 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

polysics 12y ago

This is what we get when humanity at large is wasting time on killing each other over petty things such as race, land, oil and religion.

ars 12y ago
Is there something non-petty we should be killing each other over?
- paulbaumgart 12y ago
  What are you, a compiler? :-P
ricardolopes 12y ago
Exactly. Thus we have get what we deserve, less scientific advancements and quality of life. If only we could get rid of his perpetual self-damaging instinct.
- waps 12y ago
  And if Ukraine stops fighting now ... all will be solved. Oh wait. Besides if we got rid of "self-damaging instincts", there'd be other, equally horrible problems we'd hit. Competing, of course, is why evolution works, and thus if life, as a whole, got rid of this "self-damaging instincts" we'd be nothing but simple bacteria, if that. And the problem with statements like this is that they're not really moral. Neutrality is nothing more than a vote that says the strongest party can do whatever it wants.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    So, why did humans evolve language and to live in groups, be social, etc? And, what makes you think evolution is intrinsically good, or that it can decide the best path forward for humans? Isn't evolution intrinsically nothing at all?
    - 12y ago

robhu 12y ago

Does anyone know why the MH17 story was kept off HN yesterday? I kept seeing it appear in new and then on the front page and then it would vanish. I guess admins were deleting it? Is there a policy reason why it isn't something 'good hackers would find interesting' ?

waps 12y ago
A lot of dupes were removed, but not the original discussion : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048083 (doesn't have a reference to MH17, no idea where B772 comes from)
- danieldk 12y ago
  But it was heavily flagged. After an hour, it was at a far lower position than other stories with a fraction of the votes of the same age (e.g. the Nimrod link).
davidw 12y ago
Because of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." For me, the "interesting" thing means a deeper knowledge of some facet of the world, not shallow reporting of breaking news.
- robhu 12y ago
  IIRC when the other Malaysian Airlines plane went missing that went up on HN, and that was before all the 'hacker friendly' tracking technique stories.
  - davidw 12y ago
    People are unfortunately probably going to post stuff like this, guidelines or not. It gets flagged and or moderated down pretty quickly in most cases, though.

polyx 12y ago

Is it only me or does this news story has conspiracy written all over it?

adamnemecek 12y ago
It's only you.

ulfw 12y ago

That's just horrible :(

aspanda 12y ago

Though grim but i can't help but wonder about the mythological philosophy "everything happens for the good and for a reason". Extremely uncanny...condolences to the people onboard.