17 ms·

I'm a regular user of the local library, but I notice that most people in my "class" (i.e. tech people earning a lot) don't go there. It's easier to buy it on

by chubot 12y ago

I'm a regular user of the local library, but I notice that most people in my "class" (i.e. tech people earning a lot) don't go there. It's easier to buy it on your Kindle for $10-$15 than to make a trip to the library. I'm gonna be a jerk and say that most people also like to hang out in expensive coffee shops with other members of their class, and not in the library where there are lots of poor people. It's a little bit like grocery stores... you can often get a better deal if you go to another neighborhood. But most people want to hang out with their peers in the nice grocery store. The savings isn't worth the trip either.

blhack 12y ago
A lot of libraries are starting hackerspaces. You should see if you can mentor at one. I mentor at a program at my library every week, and it's been really awesome.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  I would love to see a national scale project to convert libraries to hackerspaces/coworking spaces.. Digital media should still be available (Kindles, iPads, etc with access to libraries through Amazon for copyright material and Library Of Congress/Internet Archive for public domain material), but its time they evolve.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    You don't need a national scale project. You can start with your own, local library. Help make it into the best library around, and others will follow.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      Half agree. Use a local library as the prototype, document how you did it and the results, and then scale up with that experience.
      - blhack 12y ago
        Seriously, libraries seem to all recognize the need for hackerspaces, but they don't have hackers to staff them. They have budgets for things, and space, and a desire, they just need help figuring out where/how to spend things and how to then use the things they've gotten.
        walterbell 12y ago
        Is there an online community where hackers share knowledge about library-based hackerspaces?
        jjsz 12y ago
        You can search around CfA's blogs, their Brigade people, the Sunlight Foundation's blogs, Knight Foundation's blogs, Techpresident's blog, mySociety's blogs, Open Knowledge Foundation's blogs but to me the best example of a great library turned into a makerspace is https://www.fflib.org/make/fab-lab https://www.fflib.org/make/fab-lab.
- VLM 12y ago
  Maybe ease into makerspaces like my local library which hosts meetings, and hosts kids events put on by one of the local makerspaces, but isn't technically "The Makerspace" probably because there is zero permanent storage, although makerspace people are there seemingly every day. Once you're all there all the time anyway, then ease into the "now we want/need/demand permanent storage" And machine tools. And a pony. The concept of a "Hackerspace-Lite" is interesting. No permanent stuff onsite. Carry in and carry out. The library is already full of meeting and presentation rooms and ours finally caved into to sell coffee and junk food for fundraising. The biggest problem locally is the whole "A library is also a day care, right?" situation. Up to and including police taking abandoned kids into protective custody after a couple hours, which is weird.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    Do they tag them with crayons like street parking spaces? Seriously, how does that work - is someone watching for unattended bag.. er kids and then calling police? What's the minimum age requirement for unattended visits to the library?
    - VLM 12y ago
      They have a regular police presence due to historical problems. Not quite an officer stationed there, but pretty close at certain times of day. Helps that there is a police substation next door. Calling wouldn't get an officer there any quicker, when one walks thru or past every ten minutes or so anyway. There is a big cultural, uh, mismatch where the library requires more police intervention than any of the retail stores or bars or parks... liquor licenses have been lost for consuming far less police budget than the library. The library gets a free pass. If all the policies were printed out from the web page it would be at least 100 printed pages. It is a very verbose CYA that boils down to anything you do that a librarian doesn't like will get you banned, and being there while banned is a legal trespassing offense, so one strike and you're out. If the librarians like you, you won't be banned no matter what you do. I can photocopy copyrighted materials, take pictures or videos of my kids, talk (whisper) on my phone, hang out for an hour while my kids take a class ... folks of a different race or economic group may have a somewhat different experience when they break any of those rules. I was unable to find a minimum age, but I think you'd have to be at least upper grade school to survive not violating at least one of the hundreds of rules for more than a minute or two. I did find that they define loitering as being in an area for longer than 15 minutes other than defined study desks, so no need for crayons or tagging. I've violated that rule a few dozen times, but I'm in no danger of being punished... Given the sheer workload of homeless people and child day care, the librarians show quite a bit of restraint and can't enforce all the rules.
debt 12y ago
It's unpopular but I really enjoy reading on my phone. It's small, it's always with me, it's much more convenient than lugging around a physical book(and I love physical books). But that's why I buy ebooks(they're just expensive which sucks). It's interesting to listen to the cascading excuses when bringing up books with friends. "Why not use a kindle?" "I like holding the physical book." "Oh, then why not go to the library?" "Well, I like owning the book too." "Oh." I think you're right in that people like the "culture" around reading more than reading itself. You can save a ton of money using your local library though. I really need to start doing that.
- tekalon 12y ago
  Happy medium. I use the library for my 'summer reading books', the books you read once, enjoy and never thing about again. I use Kindle for books I really enjoy and want to read again (or for free/cheap summer books that the library doesn't have). I buy physical books for reference or if the library/kindle/nook/ebook provider does not have it available.
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    I buy physical books because they're cheaper than ebooks. I'll usually pay about $.50 to a buck for them. Sometimes my friends just give me a box of books they're done with. The local thrift store often has bestsellers for a buck. The usual price for a used book on Amazon is $.01, which with shipping comes out to still far less than the ebook.
    - debt 12y ago
      This is a good point. You could get the best of both worlds and just buy books on eBay for cheap. It's cheap and you end up with a physical copy.
    - CWuestefeld 12y ago
      For ebooks, Amazon already has one free "rental" per month of select books, for Prime members. There are other good sources of free books include this blog: http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/category/books/free-fiction/ http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/category/books/free-fiction...
bitJericho 12y ago
Wow... I don't know what libraries you go to but libraries are generally not full of poor people...
- chubot 12y ago
  In the Bay Area at least, libraries are where people without computers go to access the Internet. The Internet is the easiest way to perform a lot of basic life tasks, like interacting with the government. People without computers these days are generally lower income, so it's true that there are more poor people in the library. In some areas, it is definitely significant that libraries have bathrooms and shelter. But the Internet is always a big draw. With more and more of life moving online, libraries are providing an extremely valuable service by making Internet access freely available.
  - underwater 12y ago
    That doesn't match my experience. The libraries around Redwood City are high quality and filled with families.
- smokey_the_bear 12y ago
  Where do you live? In the midwest, where I grew up, the library was full of everyone. Now I live in Berkeley, it is full of families and homeless people. I have a family and we love the library. But it can be uncomfortable to have address the issues of homelessness to use the library. Such as shopping carts blocking the entrance, people masturbating on the public computers, or sleeping on the soft chairs in the children's area. They don't also don't put comfy chairs in the other areas to discourage people from sleeping there, which is unfortunate for adults who might like a nice spot to read.
- MadManE 12y ago
  As much as we would like it to not be true, in the real world free services attract the lowest financial class of people. Libraries are awesome, and I spent a significant portion of my life in them, but as soon as I could afford to not use them, I quit going to them.
mseebach 12y ago
I don't think any of these things have anything to do with "hanging out" and "class". When you get a book on your Kindle, you're not hanging out with anyone, you're just getting a book. Also, anecdotes and data notwithstanding, the times I've seen people "hanging out" with people they didn't arrive with at a grocery store in my life can probably be counted on one hand. When your (cash-rich, time-poor) friends buy books on their Kindles instead of going to the library, it's most likely because they value the convenience of (a) not having to go to the library to get the book (b) not having to consider whether the book is stocked (c) not having to got to the library to return it (d) not having to keep track of when the book must be returned (e) not having to actually carry a physical book around -- more then they value their $10-15.
- Chronic29 12y ago
  Your entire last paragraph supports the point that libraries are for poor people (bluntly put). As a result, the library gets associated with the lower class. I'd rather meet someone new reading at a coffee shop than at the local public library for this very reason.
overgryphon 12y ago
Library hours strongly conflict with 9-5 job hours.
- CanSpice 12y ago
  Your local library isn't open weekends? My library's open 9:30 am - 9 pm on weekdays, 9:30 am - 5:30 pm on Saturdays, and 1 pm - 5 pm on Sundays. Those hours definitely don't strongly conflict with 9-5 job hours.
x0x0 12y ago
I was a regular user of the sf library until we found a dead bedbug in a book. It's just not worth the hassle of potentially infesting my apartment. Also, the bathrooms there are foul. I guess it's nice that street people have a bathroom they can use but the only way to describe it is rural western gas station. That killed lingering at the library.
- walterbell 12y ago
  San Francisco has one of the world's great libraries, e.g. see these photos: http://www.pinterest.com/stellacarruth/san-francisco-public-library/ http://www.pinterest.com/stellacarruth/san-francisco-public-... Did you complain to a librarian about the restrooms? That is a cleaning issue, same as a busy airport. The library belongs to all local residents, chip in and help make it the space where you would like to linger. Bathrooms can be cleaned. The rest of the building and books are wonderful.
clavalle 12y ago
I regularly have four or five books from my library (one or two tech books, a fiction book and two or three comics) at any one time. Not to mention the, literally dozens, I get for my kids every month. I use the library to sample books and because if I bought every book I read, despite my healthy income, I'd be broke. I am an information devourer. I am pretty sure there are a lot of people like me, at least in the Austin area, because I have to wait on some of the books I'd like to read that I don't think very poor people would be interested in. YMMV because my library is pretty awesome and well stocked, but I think libraries are a shamefully underutilized resource.
brickmort 12y ago
holy cow.. pretentious much?
- 59nadir 12y ago
  No, that's pretentious' older brother: Elitist.
brianbreslin 12y ago
I use my local library for a quiet co working space, but never borrow books because their inventory is horribly outdated. In my town many of the libraries are also where the homeless go to hangout, since air conditioning is key here in the south. I rarely see any other tech people at the library, but do see tons at the coffee shop a block away.
neoyagami 12y ago
I live in chile and since i got my hands on kindle books i got access to tittles that don't even exist anymore in my country So any easy access to kindle books is well come,
adamc 12y ago
I don't think it has much to do with "class" (I don't see many poor people in our library). The library is OK for fiction but poor for things like up-to-date technical books.

by chubot 12y ago

blhack 12y ago

A lot of libraries are starting hackerspaces. You should see if you can mentor at one. I mentor at a program at my library every week, and it's been really awesome.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
I would love to see a national scale project to convert libraries to hackerspaces/coworking spaces.. Digital media should still be available (Kindles, iPads, etc with access to libraries through Amazon for copyright material and Library Of Congress/Internet Archive for public domain material), but its time they evolve.
- dublinben 12y ago
  You don't need a national scale project. You can start with your own, local library. Help make it into the best library around, and others will follow.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Half agree. Use a local library as the prototype, document how you did it and the results, and then scale up with that experience.
    - blhack 12y ago
      Seriously, libraries seem to all recognize the need for hackerspaces, but they don't have hackers to staff them. They have budgets for things, and space, and a desire, they just need help figuring out where/how to spend things and how to then use the things they've gotten.
      - walterbell 12y ago
        Is there an online community where hackers share knowledge about library-based hackerspaces?
        jjsz 12y ago
        You can search around CfA's blogs, their Brigade people, the Sunlight Foundation's blogs, Knight Foundation's blogs, Techpresident's blog, mySociety's blogs, Open Knowledge Foundation's blogs but to me the best example of a great library turned into a makerspace is https://www.fflib.org/make/fab-lab https://www.fflib.org/make/fab-lab.
VLM 12y ago
Maybe ease into makerspaces like my local library which hosts meetings, and hosts kids events put on by one of the local makerspaces, but isn't technically "The Makerspace" probably because there is zero permanent storage, although makerspace people are there seemingly every day. Once you're all there all the time anyway, then ease into the "now we want/need/demand permanent storage" And machine tools. And a pony. The concept of a "Hackerspace-Lite" is interesting. No permanent stuff onsite. Carry in and carry out. The library is already full of meeting and presentation rooms and ours finally caved into to sell coffee and junk food for fundraising. The biggest problem locally is the whole "A library is also a day care, right?" situation. Up to and including police taking abandoned kids into protective custody after a couple hours, which is weird.
- walterbell 12y ago
  Do they tag them with crayons like street parking spaces? Seriously, how does that work - is someone watching for unattended bag.. er kids and then calling police? What's the minimum age requirement for unattended visits to the library?
  - VLM 12y ago
    They have a regular police presence due to historical problems. Not quite an officer stationed there, but pretty close at certain times of day. Helps that there is a police substation next door. Calling wouldn't get an officer there any quicker, when one walks thru or past every ten minutes or so anyway. There is a big cultural, uh, mismatch where the library requires more police intervention than any of the retail stores or bars or parks... liquor licenses have been lost for consuming far less police budget than the library. The library gets a free pass. If all the policies were printed out from the web page it would be at least 100 printed pages. It is a very verbose CYA that boils down to anything you do that a librarian doesn't like will get you banned, and being there while banned is a legal trespassing offense, so one strike and you're out. If the librarians like you, you won't be banned no matter what you do. I can photocopy copyrighted materials, take pictures or videos of my kids, talk (whisper) on my phone, hang out for an hour while my kids take a class ... folks of a different race or economic group may have a somewhat different experience when they break any of those rules. I was unable to find a minimum age, but I think you'd have to be at least upper grade school to survive not violating at least one of the hundreds of rules for more than a minute or two. I did find that they define loitering as being in an area for longer than 15 minutes other than defined study desks, so no need for crayons or tagging. I've violated that rule a few dozen times, but I'm in no danger of being punished... Given the sheer workload of homeless people and child day care, the librarians show quite a bit of restraint and can't enforce all the rules.

debt 12y ago

It's unpopular but I really enjoy reading on my phone. It's small, it's always with me, it's much more convenient than lugging around a physical book(and I love physical books). But that's why I buy ebooks(they're just expensive which sucks). It's interesting to listen to the cascading excuses when bringing up books with friends. "Why not use a kindle?" "I like holding the physical book." "Oh, then why not go to the library?" "Well, I like owning the book too." "Oh." I think you're right in that people like the "culture" around reading more than reading itself. You can save a ton of money using your local library though. I really need to start doing that.

tekalon 12y ago
Happy medium. I use the library for my 'summer reading books', the books you read once, enjoy and never thing about again. I use Kindle for books I really enjoy and want to read again (or for free/cheap summer books that the library doesn't have). I buy physical books for reference or if the library/kindle/nook/ebook provider does not have it available.
- WalterBright 12y ago
  I buy physical books because they're cheaper than ebooks. I'll usually pay about $.50 to a buck for them. Sometimes my friends just give me a box of books they're done with. The local thrift store often has bestsellers for a buck. The usual price for a used book on Amazon is $.01, which with shipping comes out to still far less than the ebook.
  - debt 12y ago
    This is a good point. You could get the best of both worlds and just buy books on eBay for cheap. It's cheap and you end up with a physical copy.
  - CWuestefeld 12y ago
    For ebooks, Amazon already has one free "rental" per month of select books, for Prime members. There are other good sources of free books include this blog: http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/category/books/free-fiction/ http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/category/books/free-fiction...

bitJericho 12y ago

Wow... I don't know what libraries you go to but libraries are generally not full of poor people...

chubot 12y ago
In the Bay Area at least, libraries are where people without computers go to access the Internet. The Internet is the easiest way to perform a lot of basic life tasks, like interacting with the government. People without computers these days are generally lower income, so it's true that there are more poor people in the library. In some areas, it is definitely significant that libraries have bathrooms and shelter. But the Internet is always a big draw. With more and more of life moving online, libraries are providing an extremely valuable service by making Internet access freely available.
- underwater 12y ago
  That doesn't match my experience. The libraries around Redwood City are high quality and filled with families.
smokey_the_bear 12y ago
Where do you live? In the midwest, where I grew up, the library was full of everyone. Now I live in Berkeley, it is full of families and homeless people. I have a family and we love the library. But it can be uncomfortable to have address the issues of homelessness to use the library. Such as shopping carts blocking the entrance, people masturbating on the public computers, or sleeping on the soft chairs in the children's area. They don't also don't put comfy chairs in the other areas to discourage people from sleeping there, which is unfortunate for adults who might like a nice spot to read.
MadManE 12y ago
As much as we would like it to not be true, in the real world free services attract the lowest financial class of people. Libraries are awesome, and I spent a significant portion of my life in them, but as soon as I could afford to not use them, I quit going to them.

mseebach 12y ago

I don't think any of these things have anything to do with "hanging out" and "class". When you get a book on your Kindle, you're not hanging out with anyone, you're just getting a book. Also, anecdotes and data notwithstanding, the times I've seen people "hanging out" with people they didn't arrive with at a grocery store in my life can probably be counted on one hand. When your (cash-rich, time-poor) friends buy books on their Kindles instead of going to the library, it's most likely because they value the convenience of (a) not having to go to the library to get the book (b) not having to consider whether the book is stocked (c) not having to got to the library to return it (d) not having to keep track of when the book must be returned (e) not having to actually carry a physical book around -- more then they value their $10-15.

Chronic29 12y ago
Your entire last paragraph supports the point that libraries are for poor people (bluntly put). As a result, the library gets associated with the lower class. I'd rather meet someone new reading at a coffee shop than at the local public library for this very reason.

overgryphon 12y ago

Library hours strongly conflict with 9-5 job hours.

CanSpice 12y ago
Your local library isn't open weekends? My library's open 9:30 am - 9 pm on weekdays, 9:30 am - 5:30 pm on Saturdays, and 1 pm - 5 pm on Sundays. Those hours definitely don't strongly conflict with 9-5 job hours.

x0x0 12y ago

I was a regular user of the sf library until we found a dead bedbug in a book. It's just not worth the hassle of potentially infesting my apartment. Also, the bathrooms there are foul. I guess it's nice that street people have a bathroom they can use but the only way to describe it is rural western gas station. That killed lingering at the library.

walterbell 12y ago
San Francisco has one of the world's great libraries, e.g. see these photos: http://www.pinterest.com/stellacarruth/san-francisco-public-library/ http://www.pinterest.com/stellacarruth/san-francisco-public-... Did you complain to a librarian about the restrooms? That is a cleaning issue, same as a busy airport. The library belongs to all local residents, chip in and help make it the space where you would like to linger. Bathrooms can be cleaned. The rest of the building and books are wonderful.

clavalle 12y ago

I regularly have four or five books from my library (one or two tech books, a fiction book and two or three comics) at any one time. Not to mention the, literally dozens, I get for my kids every month. I use the library to sample books and because if I bought every book I read, despite my healthy income, I'd be broke. I am an information devourer. I am pretty sure there are a lot of people like me, at least in the Austin area, because I have to wait on some of the books I'd like to read that I don't think very poor people would be interested in. YMMV because my library is pretty awesome and well stocked, but I think libraries are a shamefully underutilized resource.

brickmort 12y ago

holy cow.. pretentious much?

59nadir 12y ago
No, that's pretentious' older brother: Elitist.

brianbreslin 12y ago

I use my local library for a quiet co working space, but never borrow books because their inventory is horribly outdated. In my town many of the libraries are also where the homeless go to hangout, since air conditioning is key here in the south. I rarely see any other tech people at the library, but do see tons at the coffee shop a block away.

neoyagami 12y ago

I live in chile and since i got my hands on kindle books i got access to tittles that don't even exist anymore in my country So any easy access to kindle books is well come,

adamc 12y ago

I don't think it has much to do with "class" (I don't see many poor people in our library). The library is OK for fiction but poor for things like up-to-date technical books.