7 ms·

Perhaps a better question to ask is why Outlook maps "alt+s" to send, which is how the "ś" diacritic in Polish is typed (also "ß" in German) resulting in all ki

by fwr 12y ago

Perhaps a better question to ask is why Outlook maps "alt+s" to send, which is how the "ś" diacritic in Polish is typed (also "ß" in German) resulting in all kinds of funny/awkward situations in which incomplete e-mails are sent.

Someone 12y ago
That gets worse if Outlook pops up an appointment reminder while you are typing a message. Such windows show (http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/comp/blog/2007/figs/bbf20070619_01_f01.jpg http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/comp/blog/2007/figs/bbf2007061...) that alt-S does Snooze, but Outlook reacts to that key press, too (or eats it before the pop up can see it)
Aldo_MX 12y ago
Sadly, most cross-platform apps have a shortcut that gets triggered with altgr + key. I use US-International (a layout where almost every key has a symbol mapped to an altgr + key combination), and this is very frustrating, especially with accented vowels áéíóú and ñ (pretty common in Spanish). This is why I always prefer dedicated windows apps over cross-platform apps.
- ygra 12y ago
  Even dedicated Windows applications get that wrong on occasion, despite the UX guidelines stating that Ctrl+Alt should never be used for shortcuts for this very reason. Alas, people with a vanilla US keyboard layout won't ever notice ... Most recent thing that bit me in that regard was ReSharper.
na85 12y ago
I'd suggest the even more pertinent question to ask is: Who still voluntarily uses Outlook? Microsoft arrogance aside: Gigantic, bloated, monolithic proprietary applications, written by a company known to be privacy-hostile and surveillance-friendly, handling your potentially sensitive communcations? I think not.
- ranran876 12y ago
  It integrates with windows and other microsoft services a lot more closely than thunderbird.
  - bybjorn 12y ago
    The Bat! Is what I used on Windows back in the days .. nostalgia
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Best email/calendar/contacts integration?
- kalleboo 12y ago
  I thought you were describing Gmail/Google there...
  - dzhiurgis 12y ago
    Works better though
- peckrob 12y ago
  Pretty much any Exchange shop that's standardized on Microsoft's tools. There are a lot of them out there.
  - MAGZine 12y ago
    Probably a sizable chunk of fortunate 500s.
    - Alupis 12y ago
      A lot are using Zimbra now days. My company made the switch a few years back. Lower TCO, has all the same features of Exchange (plus some collaboration features Exchange lacks), plus it's open source so you can hack on it or make your own custom modules if you desire.
kasbah 12y ago
Because Bill Gates doesn't speak Polish or German.
koesterd 12y ago
"ß" on the German keyboard is on the right to the "0" key and doesn't need any modifier.
- tokenizerrr 12y ago
  And on qwerty US-International which is used throughout most countries that don't want to use their own specialized keyboards it's alt+s.
  - ygra 12y ago
    AltGr+S (or Ctrl+Alt+S).
  - amatera 12y ago
    Then the Duden[0] gives the following rule: "Fehlt das ß auf der Tastatur eines Computers oder einer Schreibmaschine, schreibt man dafür ss." Translation: "If the ß is missing on a computer keyboard or typewriter, you have to write 'ss' instead". [0] http://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/doppel-s-und-scharfes-s http://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/doppel-s...
    - egeozcan 12y ago
      But it's not missing. This is like saying capital s is missing because you have to press shift+s.
      - amatera 12y ago
        Hehe true. I guess they mean "if the (standalone) key is missing".
        jkrems 12y ago
        I'm pretty sure they refer to the inability to type ß. Which is a real concern for type writers, less so for most keyboards. I'm writing this using an American keyboard and I don't see why I shouldn't use "ß" just because it's a different key(-combination). I also wouldn't start writing "spaet" just because "ä" takes a bit more work (Alt+U, A).
oflordal 12y ago
On Swedish versions of Word find is moved to Ctrl+b since the word for bold starts with an f. Can get very annoying when mixing versions.
- xorcist 12y ago
  That would be a great question for Raymond Chen! I wonder whoever thought that was a good idea. Anyone who uses a localized Word version is likely to use an English one as well sometime, and the hot keys are completely messed up. For bonus points, ask about the localized Excel formulas. And date formats! That is so brain freezingly stupid I can not for my life comprehend it. It causes no end of trouble when moving data between versions.
  - hesselink 12y ago
    The localized Excel formulas! Oh, the horror! Who would translate a programming language?
    - kalleboo 12y ago
      Visual Basic for Applications, AppleScript and HyperTalk have all supported different languages at some point...
  - troels 12y ago
    Or the localised CSV formats. Yes, they actually localised a file format. Insanity.
- adl 12y ago
  In the Spanish version, I believe it's Ctl+N. Even as a native speaker it used to trow me off.
luchs 12y ago
Isn't AltGr the usual key to get alternate characters instead of Alt which is for keyboard shortcuts? I've never seen a program mapping shortcuts to AltGr.
- na85 12y ago
  Most North American keyboards don't have AltGr, they just have 2x Alt keys.
  - frik 12y ago
    You can press Ctrl + Alt to emulate AltGr
- MatmaRex 12y ago
  "ś" is input in Polish using AltGr+s (or Ctrl+Alt+s), but AltGr is not labeled as such on Polish keyboards (it's simply the right Alt key, and people will refer to it as such when asked).
jasonkostempski 12y ago
ALT+S is also save in XCode with default key mappings for a standard keyboard. I hit save habitually while coding. I've sent several incomplete emails hitting that. I've started typing up my emails in Vim and pasting into Outlook when I'm done.
- jasonkostempski 12y ago
  I was going to ask why the downvotes but today I switched to a newer Dell keyboard, the kind that looks like an Apple ripoff. I had the Dell KB212-B before. My 'Modifier Key' settings have always been the default. Alt mapped to Command on my old keyboard, "Windows" maps to Command on this one. Searching seems to suggest Windows to Command is the norm. I sort of liked Alt to Command since it mimicked the Apple layout more closely. Hmmm, which to choose?
hibbelig 12y ago
Hm. Most Germans probably use the German keyboard layout which has a key for the ß character. I guess I'm pretty odd in that I use the "US English International" (or similar) keyboard layout which supports the German characters via dead keys. Except ß, which is the right Alt key plus s. (The left Alt key plus s is just a regular Alt+S. US Intl changes the semantics of the right Alt key.) For Polish, does the left Alt key generate "ś"? Or the right Alt key? Or both?

by fwr 12y ago

Someone 12y ago

That gets worse if Outlook pops up an appointment reminder while you are typing a message. Such windows show (http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/comp/blog/2007/figs/bbf20070619_01_f01.jpg http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/comp/blog/2007/figs/bbf2007061...) that alt-S does Snooze, but Outlook reacts to that key press, too (or eats it before the pop up can see it)

Aldo_MX 12y ago

Sadly, most cross-platform apps have a shortcut that gets triggered with altgr + key. I use US-International (a layout where almost every key has a symbol mapped to an altgr + key combination), and this is very frustrating, especially with accented vowels áéíóú and ñ (pretty common in Spanish). This is why I always prefer dedicated windows apps over cross-platform apps.

ygra 12y ago
Even dedicated Windows applications get that wrong on occasion, despite the UX guidelines stating that Ctrl+Alt should never be used for shortcuts for this very reason. Alas, people with a vanilla US keyboard layout won't ever notice ... Most recent thing that bit me in that regard was ReSharper.

na85 12y ago

I'd suggest the even more pertinent question to ask is: Who still voluntarily uses Outlook? Microsoft arrogance aside: Gigantic, bloated, monolithic proprietary applications, written by a company known to be privacy-hostile and surveillance-friendly, handling your potentially sensitive communcations? I think not.

ranran876 12y ago
It integrates with windows and other microsoft services a lot more closely than thunderbird.
- bybjorn 12y ago
  The Bat! Is what I used on Windows back in the days .. nostalgia
sliverstorm 12y ago
Best email/calendar/contacts integration?
kalleboo 12y ago
I thought you were describing Gmail/Google there...
- dzhiurgis 12y ago
  Works better though
peckrob 12y ago
Pretty much any Exchange shop that's standardized on Microsoft's tools. There are a lot of them out there.
- MAGZine 12y ago
  Probably a sizable chunk of fortunate 500s.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    A lot are using Zimbra now days. My company made the switch a few years back. Lower TCO, has all the same features of Exchange (plus some collaboration features Exchange lacks), plus it's open source so you can hack on it or make your own custom modules if you desire.

kasbah 12y ago

Because Bill Gates doesn't speak Polish or German.

koesterd 12y ago

"ß" on the German keyboard is on the right to the "0" key and doesn't need any modifier.

tokenizerrr 12y ago
And on qwerty US-International which is used throughout most countries that don't want to use their own specialized keyboards it's alt+s.
- ygra 12y ago
  AltGr+S (or Ctrl+Alt+S).
- amatera 12y ago
  Then the Duden[0] gives the following rule: "Fehlt das ß auf der Tastatur eines Computers oder einer Schreibmaschine, schreibt man dafür ss." Translation: "If the ß is missing on a computer keyboard or typewriter, you have to write 'ss' instead". [0] http://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/doppel-s-und-scharfes-s http://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/doppel-s...
  - egeozcan 12y ago
    But it's not missing. This is like saying capital s is missing because you have to press shift+s.
    - amatera 12y ago
      Hehe true. I guess they mean "if the (standalone) key is missing".
      - jkrems 12y ago
        I'm pretty sure they refer to the inability to type ß. Which is a real concern for type writers, less so for most keyboards. I'm writing this using an American keyboard and I don't see why I shouldn't use "ß" just because it's a different key(-combination). I also wouldn't start writing "spaet" just because "ä" takes a bit more work (Alt+U, A).

oflordal 12y ago

On Swedish versions of Word find is moved to Ctrl+b since the word for bold starts with an f. Can get very annoying when mixing versions.

xorcist 12y ago
That would be a great question for Raymond Chen! I wonder whoever thought that was a good idea. Anyone who uses a localized Word version is likely to use an English one as well sometime, and the hot keys are completely messed up. For bonus points, ask about the localized Excel formulas. And date formats! That is so brain freezingly stupid I can not for my life comprehend it. It causes no end of trouble when moving data between versions.
- hesselink 12y ago
  The localized Excel formulas! Oh, the horror! Who would translate a programming language?
  - kalleboo 12y ago
    Visual Basic for Applications, AppleScript and HyperTalk have all supported different languages at some point...
- troels 12y ago
  Or the localised CSV formats. Yes, they actually localised a file format. Insanity.
adl 12y ago
In the Spanish version, I believe it's Ctl+N. Even as a native speaker it used to trow me off.

luchs 12y ago

Isn't AltGr the usual key to get alternate characters instead of Alt which is for keyboard shortcuts? I've never seen a program mapping shortcuts to AltGr.

na85 12y ago
Most North American keyboards don't have AltGr, they just have 2x Alt keys.
- frik 12y ago
  You can press Ctrl + Alt to emulate AltGr
MatmaRex 12y ago
"ś" is input in Polish using AltGr+s (or Ctrl+Alt+s), but AltGr is not labeled as such on Polish keyboards (it's simply the right Alt key, and people will refer to it as such when asked).

jasonkostempski 12y ago

ALT+S is also save in XCode with default key mappings for a standard keyboard. I hit save habitually while coding. I've sent several incomplete emails hitting that. I've started typing up my emails in Vim and pasting into Outlook when I'm done.

jasonkostempski 12y ago
I was going to ask why the downvotes but today I switched to a newer Dell keyboard, the kind that looks like an Apple ripoff. I had the Dell KB212-B before. My 'Modifier Key' settings have always been the default. Alt mapped to Command on my old keyboard, "Windows" maps to Command on this one. Searching seems to suggest Windows to Command is the norm. I sort of liked Alt to Command since it mimicked the Apple layout more closely. Hmmm, which to choose?

hibbelig 12y ago

Hm. Most Germans probably use the German keyboard layout which has a key for the ß character. I guess I'm pretty odd in that I use the "US English International" (or similar) keyboard layout which supports the German characters via dead keys. Except ß, which is the right Alt key plus s. (The left Alt key plus s is just a regular Alt+S. US Intl changes the semantics of the right Alt key.) For Polish, does the left Alt key generate "ś"? Or the right Alt key? Or both?