9 ms·

And those countries want to build their own industries and employ their own people as well, same problem. Take the recent failure to sell the SuperHornet and t

by JVIDEL 12y ago

And those countries want to build their own industries and employ their own people as well, same problem. Take the recent failure to sell the SuperHornet and the Rafale to the Brazilian Air Force: they lost the bid because both Boeing and Dassault refused to do a complete technology transfer to the Brazilians. So the BAF went with the Grippen because Saab gave them the blueprints and code to everything, to the point that Brazil can make their own Grippens in the future and their own weapon systems without sharing information with the Swedes.

mikecb 12y ago
I wouldn't expect Brazil to be a market for this sort of plane, but rather more countries which currently primarily purchase used or refurbished soviet fighters. But then again, given their low development costs, who's to say that Textron wouldn't approve such a production model for this plane? It's not like Saab is losing money on the Brazil deal.
- at-fates-hands 12y ago
  >>> I wouldn't expect Brazil to be a market for this sort of plane, but rather more countries which currently primarily purchase used or refurbished soviet fighters. I would presume this means a lot of middle eastern and northern African countries - most of whom are engaged in some kind of civil war. I'm wondering how this affect a company's conscious to know their planes are being used to support some pretty sketchy governments.
  - JVIDEL 12y ago
    Uganda had to ask the US for jet fuel to be able to pursue Kony and his LRA, where are they going to get the money for new planes?
  - mikecb 12y ago
    No, I'm thinking more of stable governments which have reasonable defense budgets. That was meant to be captured by "Medium sized countries", but I guess not. Think South America, larger SE Asian economies, etc. This is all speculation, so meh.
  - pjc50 12y ago
    You don't get into the arms business if you worry about how they'll be used.
- JVIDEL 12y ago
  And those countries will keep buying those derelict Soviet planes because those are dirt cheap to the point most are hand-me-downs obtained for free. In those cases the countries have a bigger problem fueling the planes. And I wouldn't subestimate those old Soviet planes, the Indians have updated and overhauled the old Mig-21 to the point that is a very capable fighter jet able to compete against a block 50 F-16. There are many companies offering updates for such planes and those are much cheaper than brand-new units.
  - mikecb 12y ago
    All true. But this would be an alternative, the same that Mirage's were a popular alternative for MiGs. At some point, those soviet planes become so expensive to maintain that it's worth it to purchase new ones. Of course, to properly manage that scenario, you need a competent accountant...
    - JVIDEL 12y ago
      It will never get more expensive than $20 million per plane + all the new support structure needed, from new ground radars and data systems to even new tooling for the mechanics. In any case those countries are more far more likely to buy drones instead, which is why the number of companies in that sector is huge.
      - vonmoltke 12y ago
        > all the new support structure needed They will not require an "all new" support structure. The same basic facilities will work for any single-seat fighter-bomber. The main things needed will be special tooling and ground carts. These are usually provided as part of the purchase package and may already be factored into the $20m price tag. > new ground radars Ground-based radar sets are irrelevant. > and data systems All those Soviet bird upgrades tear out every piece of of Soviet electronics and refit them with new, Western systems. Data links and similar systems will need to be upgraded anyway. On top of that, the Scorpion and the upgrade packages are going to use compatible data link technology, so an air force can even mix Scorpions with Soviet retreads.
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
OT (ish): As an aside do TRIPS and the Berne Convention and such have clauses that allow for this sort of wholesale copying; it appears to fail the "Berne 3-step test". Or is it simply that everyone ignore military copyright infringement, or ?
- ojbyrne 12y ago
  I'm doubt its copyright infringement - more likely there's some kind of technology transfer language in the agreement.

by JVIDEL 12y ago

mikecb 12y ago

I wouldn't expect Brazil to be a market for this sort of plane, but rather more countries which currently primarily purchase used or refurbished soviet fighters. But then again, given their low development costs, who's to say that Textron wouldn't approve such a production model for this plane? It's not like Saab is losing money on the Brazil deal.

at-fates-hands 12y ago
>>> I wouldn't expect Brazil to be a market for this sort of plane, but rather more countries which currently primarily purchase used or refurbished soviet fighters. I would presume this means a lot of middle eastern and northern African countries - most of whom are engaged in some kind of civil war. I'm wondering how this affect a company's conscious to know their planes are being used to support some pretty sketchy governments.
- JVIDEL 12y ago
  Uganda had to ask the US for jet fuel to be able to pursue Kony and his LRA, where are they going to get the money for new planes?
- mikecb 12y ago
  No, I'm thinking more of stable governments which have reasonable defense budgets. That was meant to be captured by "Medium sized countries", but I guess not. Think South America, larger SE Asian economies, etc. This is all speculation, so meh.
- pjc50 12y ago
  You don't get into the arms business if you worry about how they'll be used.
JVIDEL 12y ago
And those countries will keep buying those derelict Soviet planes because those are dirt cheap to the point most are hand-me-downs obtained for free. In those cases the countries have a bigger problem fueling the planes. And I wouldn't subestimate those old Soviet planes, the Indians have updated and overhauled the old Mig-21 to the point that is a very capable fighter jet able to compete against a block 50 F-16. There are many companies offering updates for such planes and those are much cheaper than brand-new units.
- mikecb 12y ago
  All true. But this would be an alternative, the same that Mirage's were a popular alternative for MiGs. At some point, those soviet planes become so expensive to maintain that it's worth it to purchase new ones. Of course, to properly manage that scenario, you need a competent accountant...
  - JVIDEL 12y ago
    It will never get more expensive than $20 million per plane + all the new support structure needed, from new ground radars and data systems to even new tooling for the mechanics. In any case those countries are more far more likely to buy drones instead, which is why the number of companies in that sector is huge.
    - vonmoltke 12y ago
      > all the new support structure needed They will not require an "all new" support structure. The same basic facilities will work for any single-seat fighter-bomber. The main things needed will be special tooling and ground carts. These are usually provided as part of the purchase package and may already be factored into the $20m price tag. > new ground radars Ground-based radar sets are irrelevant. > and data systems All those Soviet bird upgrades tear out every piece of of Soviet electronics and refit them with new, Western systems. Data links and similar systems will need to be upgraded anyway. On top of that, the Scorpion and the upgrade packages are going to use compatible data link technology, so an air force can even mix Scorpions with Soviet retreads.

pbhjpbhj 12y ago

OT (ish): As an aside do TRIPS and the Berne Convention and such have clauses that allow for this sort of wholesale copying; it appears to fail the "Berne 3-step test". Or is it simply that everyone ignore military copyright infringement, or ?

ojbyrne 12y ago
I'm doubt its copyright infringement - more likely there's some kind of technology transfer language in the agreement.