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Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I hav

by jmhain 12y ago

Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I have IBS and an anxiety disorder that had been in remission for years. I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. I went from a mild IBS-C to severe IBS-D, and my panic attacks came back with an intensity unlike anything I've ever experienced. I don't doubt that intestinal bacteria are related to IBS and anxiety disorders and that certain probiotic treatments may help. But such supplementation should be based on detailed research of each of the strains taken, much of which does not even exist yet.

throwaway111222 12y ago
I also have IBS and was diagnosed years ago, but I never heard of different classifications that you mentioned, IBS-C or IBS-D. Mostly, I classify the severity as "day-to-day", workdays usually being the worst. I haven't tried consuming live cultures other than yogurt, and even then I have mixed results. Have you gotten far in your research on the types of bacteria, and do you have any resources you could share? Edit: just read about differences between IBS-C and D and it definitely sounds like there has been some headway in the last 15 years since I was diagnosed (back then it was mostly a prognosis of "here's a colonoscopy, sorry not much else we can do"). I should definitely get re-evaluated. Thanks for mentioning this.
- bignaj 12y ago
  C is constipation. D is diarrhea. I have Crohn's and didn't know these either, but Google was my friend. I personally don't distinguish. Diarrhea largely affects individuals who have Crohn's in the colon (not me) due to the colon's role in body water absorption from fecal waste. My inflammation occurs in the ileum so I rarely, if ever, have diarrhea but I do have severe, piercing abdominal pain from scar tissue and constriction. My personal opinion from a biology background is we largely don't know jack about Crohn's/IBS and the classifications are grasping at straws. If you do want to know some of the scientific stuff the genetics side is a great place to start. NOD2 is specifically involved in Crohn's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOD2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOD2 and you can learn a lot of interesting things about our innate immune system.
- jmhain 12y ago
  From the little research I've done, it looks like the bifidobacterium genus, in particular certain strains of bifidobacterium longum [0,1] and infantis [2], have favorable effects on IBS and anxiety. Interestingly, in [1] they noted that it was able to normalize low BDNF levels, which is one hypothesis as to how SSRIs treat anxiety and depression. However, I picked out my probiotic specifically because it has those species (among many others), and you read what happened. [0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172187 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172187 [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886445/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886445/
erichmond 12y ago
IBS seems like the doctors way of saying "We don't know what your problem is". Doctors told me I had IBS for 10 years, then a friend suggested to stop eating wheat, and 95% of my symptoms went away. I'm actually about to start testing a FODMAP diet to see if I can improve my health any further. Have you tried anything to improve your health, or did you just accept the IBS diagnosis? I only ask because I've seen no research that suggests IBS is a real thing, just a catch-all for many potential things.
- bignaj 12y ago
  I have Crohn's and I did the FODMAP diet when I had very severe symptoms. What I found: it does actually work and remediated a lot of my severe abdominal pain centered around eating (in conjunction with medication) BUT... I also found it absolutely miserable on its own. I think Soylent might be more appetizing to me by an order of magnitude. Good luck!
  - graeme 12y ago
    What did you find miserable about it? Elimination of certain foods or something part of what you were actually eating?
    - erichmond 12y ago
      Replying to your paleo comment. Yeah, I think for those of us with "Generic IBS" we need to be aggressive in trying out different approaches to try and heal our gut issues. I went paleo once I realized wheat was causing me all sorts of stomach issues, and over the years I drifted more and more towards a "natural and whole food" diet, and as my intake of veggies grew, I realized that asparagus and brussel sprouts seemed to do a number of me. When I went to the gastroenterologist to try and figure out what was going on there, he first recommended drugs, which I declined, but he then suggested looking into the FODMAP diet, and it turned out that most fructans were triggers, as well as some polyols. When I ate wheat, I suffered from tenesmus, depression, back acne, short-term memory loss, alternating constipation/diarrhea, migraines, etc. Now my only symptoms are diarrhea and some stomach pain when eating fructans. I'm hoping going FODMAP only will solve the remaining issues I have. All that said, I'm just advocating that we try whatever we can so collectively we can get data on what works and what doesn't. If we just accept the doctors diagnosis of IBS and treat it with drugs, we'll never collectively solve the underlying problem.
300bps 12y ago
I had IBS-D from about the age of 10 to the age of 29. I'm 42 now. What changed for me 13 years ago is that I learned that humans require eating dietary fiber and changed my diet to accomplish that. I eat about 40 grams of dietary fiber and drink at least a gallon of water every day. It actually takes work to reach this goal, but the plus side is that once I started doing this I have had no symptoms of IBS for the past 13 years.
- bignaj 12y ago
  Wow, that's a pretty amazing amount of fiber and a great success story. I would caution applying this advice to everyone, though. As anyone who has a lot of intestinal inflammation can tell you very quickly: fiber is like steel wool dragging through there. Ouch! I think this especially highlights how IBS is a range of causes/symptoms, not one distinct disorder.
  - 300bps 12y ago
    IBS does not typically present with inflammation. Those are typically hallmarks of inflammatory bowel disease like colitis or Crohns. http://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/abdominal/Pages/Irritable-Bowel-Syndrome-IBS-and-Inflammatory-Bowel-Disease-IBD.aspx http://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditi... There are some sources that say inflammation does play a role in IBS but every study I've read says it does not.
    - bignaj 12y ago
      Very interesting. I indeed have Crohn's, not IBS. I thought they would be more closely related, but this article [1] from the CCFA has made me change my mind a little bit... [1] http://www.ccfa.org/resources/ibs-and-ibd-two-very.html http://www.ccfa.org/resources/ibs-and-ibd-two-very.html
- e40 12y ago
  Do you have another other dietary restrictions, other than the fiber and water? Just curious. Thanks.
drewblaisdell 12y ago
> I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. How can you be sure that taking probiotics for your IBS is the cause of your IBS getting worse?
- jmhain 12y ago
  I don't for sure. In fact, it is definitely confounded by the fact that I quit my SSRI a month and a half prior. However, the reaction I described began a day after I started the probiotic. Also, it gradually decreased in intensity over the two weeks after I stopped the probiotic and I resumed my SSRI. Just to be sure, I took another and the whole thing happened again.
MichaelGG 12y ago
Interesting that you mention anxiety. After particularly poor eating, where I start to feel physical distress, I've noticed alprazolam seems to help considerably. Likewise, for some cases of light nervousness, I've noticed pepto bismol seems to calm my nerves.
- jmhain 12y ago
  Most of my panic attacks occurred immediately after a meal as well. I discovered a couple of interesting things: * Magnesium Citrate tablets were able to stop or lessen the attacks, but only when they occurred after a meal. I suspect the laxative effect of magnesium is responsible. * The only food that wouldn't trigger anxiety was coconut-based items, which I suspect has to do with coconut oil comprising mostly MCTs, which take less work to digest.
calinet6 12y ago
Just to provide an alternate anecdote, I take probiotics fairly regularly (one to three in sequence every 1-2 weeks, or whenever I get out of whack) and have only had neutral or positive results. The flora in the probiotic is really nothing that shouldn't already be in a healthy gut, although of course you do want to be very careful as it's clear that your gut micro-biome is very important to your overall health. Just another data point.
- jmhain 12y ago
  > The flora in the probiotic is really nothing that shouldn't already be in a healthy gut Perhaps the important factor isn't which species are present, but their distribution or some other factor of which we are still ignorant. In any case, I'm glad you've seen positive results and I may try them again in the future with single-strain supplements once this ordeal is long behind me.
benlambt 12y ago
Brewing your own probiotics may be a safer option. People have been eating Sauerkraut for 1000s of years. I just add chopped cabbage and a tablespoon of salt into a quart-sized jar, fill with filtered water and wait a week or so until it tastes sour enough.
pling 12y ago
This. Ex IBS sufferer here. Fixed it myself after 3 years of hell from doctors who quite clearly were a) short of any realistic knowledge on the matter and b) quite clearly using me as an experimental subject for everything the drug company was pushing at the time. Worked out how to reset it myself: just drank water for the best part of two weeks and low end carbs (bran flakes with water on) and nothing else. Felt like crap for about 4 days then started to improve. After my butt stopped wrenching daily, I introduced normal foods back one at a time over the space of 3 months, ending with meat and heavy carbs. I got these steps from a microbiologist rather than a doctor. That worked for me wonderfully.
Shizka 12y ago
If you still have IBS you might want to try http://nordicrebalance.dk/en http://nordicrebalance.dk/en I was told about it recently and am going to start treatment in a couple of weeks. They claim a 95% rate in chance of improvement amongst test subjects according to [1]. There are also a few more studies on their website supporting the product. They do however seem to be a relatively new company and I haven't been able to find much information besides their website. I have been told that the doctors behind it have been researching IBS and CD for about 20 years, so that seems to be a plus. [1]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11711768 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11711768

by jmhain 12y ago

throwaway111222 12y ago

I also have IBS and was diagnosed years ago, but I never heard of different classifications that you mentioned, IBS-C or IBS-D. Mostly, I classify the severity as "day-to-day", workdays usually being the worst. I haven't tried consuming live cultures other than yogurt, and even then I have mixed results. Have you gotten far in your research on the types of bacteria, and do you have any resources you could share? Edit: just read about differences between IBS-C and D and it definitely sounds like there has been some headway in the last 15 years since I was diagnosed (back then it was mostly a prognosis of "here's a colonoscopy, sorry not much else we can do"). I should definitely get re-evaluated. Thanks for mentioning this.

bignaj 12y ago
C is constipation. D is diarrhea. I have Crohn's and didn't know these either, but Google was my friend. I personally don't distinguish. Diarrhea largely affects individuals who have Crohn's in the colon (not me) due to the colon's role in body water absorption from fecal waste. My inflammation occurs in the ileum so I rarely, if ever, have diarrhea but I do have severe, piercing abdominal pain from scar tissue and constriction. My personal opinion from a biology background is we largely don't know jack about Crohn's/IBS and the classifications are grasping at straws. If you do want to know some of the scientific stuff the genetics side is a great place to start. NOD2 is specifically involved in Crohn's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOD2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOD2 and you can learn a lot of interesting things about our innate immune system.
jmhain 12y ago
From the little research I've done, it looks like the bifidobacterium genus, in particular certain strains of bifidobacterium longum [0,1] and infantis [2], have favorable effects on IBS and anxiety. Interestingly, in [1] they noted that it was able to normalize low BDNF levels, which is one hypothesis as to how SSRIs treat anxiety and depression. However, I picked out my probiotic specifically because it has those species (among many others), and you read what happened. [0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172187 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172187 [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886445/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886445/

erichmond 12y ago

IBS seems like the doctors way of saying "We don't know what your problem is". Doctors told me I had IBS for 10 years, then a friend suggested to stop eating wheat, and 95% of my symptoms went away. I'm actually about to start testing a FODMAP diet to see if I can improve my health any further. Have you tried anything to improve your health, or did you just accept the IBS diagnosis? I only ask because I've seen no research that suggests IBS is a real thing, just a catch-all for many potential things.

bignaj 12y ago
I have Crohn's and I did the FODMAP diet when I had very severe symptoms. What I found: it does actually work and remediated a lot of my severe abdominal pain centered around eating (in conjunction with medication) BUT... I also found it absolutely miserable on its own. I think Soylent might be more appetizing to me by an order of magnitude. Good luck!
- graeme 12y ago
  What did you find miserable about it? Elimination of certain foods or something part of what you were actually eating?
  - erichmond 12y ago
    Replying to your paleo comment. Yeah, I think for those of us with "Generic IBS" we need to be aggressive in trying out different approaches to try and heal our gut issues. I went paleo once I realized wheat was causing me all sorts of stomach issues, and over the years I drifted more and more towards a "natural and whole food" diet, and as my intake of veggies grew, I realized that asparagus and brussel sprouts seemed to do a number of me. When I went to the gastroenterologist to try and figure out what was going on there, he first recommended drugs, which I declined, but he then suggested looking into the FODMAP diet, and it turned out that most fructans were triggers, as well as some polyols. When I ate wheat, I suffered from tenesmus, depression, back acne, short-term memory loss, alternating constipation/diarrhea, migraines, etc. Now my only symptoms are diarrhea and some stomach pain when eating fructans. I'm hoping going FODMAP only will solve the remaining issues I have. All that said, I'm just advocating that we try whatever we can so collectively we can get data on what works and what doesn't. If we just accept the doctors diagnosis of IBS and treat it with drugs, we'll never collectively solve the underlying problem.

300bps 12y ago

I had IBS-D from about the age of 10 to the age of 29. I'm 42 now. What changed for me 13 years ago is that I learned that humans require eating dietary fiber and changed my diet to accomplish that. I eat about 40 grams of dietary fiber and drink at least a gallon of water every day. It actually takes work to reach this goal, but the plus side is that once I started doing this I have had no symptoms of IBS for the past 13 years.

bignaj 12y ago
Wow, that's a pretty amazing amount of fiber and a great success story. I would caution applying this advice to everyone, though. As anyone who has a lot of intestinal inflammation can tell you very quickly: fiber is like steel wool dragging through there. Ouch! I think this especially highlights how IBS is a range of causes/symptoms, not one distinct disorder.
- 300bps 12y ago
  IBS does not typically present with inflammation. Those are typically hallmarks of inflammatory bowel disease like colitis or Crohns. http://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/abdominal/Pages/Irritable-Bowel-Syndrome-IBS-and-Inflammatory-Bowel-Disease-IBD.aspx http://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditi... There are some sources that say inflammation does play a role in IBS but every study I've read says it does not.
  - bignaj 12y ago
    Very interesting. I indeed have Crohn's, not IBS. I thought they would be more closely related, but this article [1] from the CCFA has made me change my mind a little bit... [1] http://www.ccfa.org/resources/ibs-and-ibd-two-very.html http://www.ccfa.org/resources/ibs-and-ibd-two-very.html
e40 12y ago
Do you have another other dietary restrictions, other than the fiber and water? Just curious. Thanks.

drewblaisdell 12y ago

> I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. How can you be sure that taking probiotics for your IBS is the cause of your IBS getting worse?

jmhain 12y ago
I don't for sure. In fact, it is definitely confounded by the fact that I quit my SSRI a month and a half prior. However, the reaction I described began a day after I started the probiotic. Also, it gradually decreased in intensity over the two weeks after I stopped the probiotic and I resumed my SSRI. Just to be sure, I took another and the whole thing happened again.

MichaelGG 12y ago

Interesting that you mention anxiety. After particularly poor eating, where I start to feel physical distress, I've noticed alprazolam seems to help considerably. Likewise, for some cases of light nervousness, I've noticed pepto bismol seems to calm my nerves.

jmhain 12y ago
Most of my panic attacks occurred immediately after a meal as well. I discovered a couple of interesting things: * Magnesium Citrate tablets were able to stop or lessen the attacks, but only when they occurred after a meal. I suspect the laxative effect of magnesium is responsible. * The only food that wouldn't trigger anxiety was coconut-based items, which I suspect has to do with coconut oil comprising mostly MCTs, which take less work to digest.

calinet6 12y ago

Just to provide an alternate anecdote, I take probiotics fairly regularly (one to three in sequence every 1-2 weeks, or whenever I get out of whack) and have only had neutral or positive results. The flora in the probiotic is really nothing that shouldn't already be in a healthy gut, although of course you do want to be very careful as it's clear that your gut micro-biome is very important to your overall health. Just another data point.

jmhain 12y ago
> The flora in the probiotic is really nothing that shouldn't already be in a healthy gut Perhaps the important factor isn't which species are present, but their distribution or some other factor of which we are still ignorant. In any case, I'm glad you've seen positive results and I may try them again in the future with single-strain supplements once this ordeal is long behind me.

benlambt 12y ago

Brewing your own probiotics may be a safer option. People have been eating Sauerkraut for 1000s of years. I just add chopped cabbage and a tablespoon of salt into a quart-sized jar, fill with filtered water and wait a week or so until it tastes sour enough.

pling 12y ago

This. Ex IBS sufferer here. Fixed it myself after 3 years of hell from doctors who quite clearly were a) short of any realistic knowledge on the matter and b) quite clearly using me as an experimental subject for everything the drug company was pushing at the time. Worked out how to reset it myself: just drank water for the best part of two weeks and low end carbs (bran flakes with water on) and nothing else. Felt like crap for about 4 days then started to improve. After my butt stopped wrenching daily, I introduced normal foods back one at a time over the space of 3 months, ending with meat and heavy carbs. I got these steps from a microbiologist rather than a doctor. That worked for me wonderfully.

Shizka 12y ago

If you still have IBS you might want to try http://nordicrebalance.dk/en http://nordicrebalance.dk/en I was told about it recently and am going to start treatment in a couple of weeks. They claim a 95% rate in chance of improvement amongst test subjects according to [1]. There are also a few more studies on their website supporting the product. They do however seem to be a relatively new company and I haven't been able to find much information besides their website. I have been told that the doctors behind it have been researching IBS and CD for about 20 years, so that seems to be a plus. [1]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11711768 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11711768