6 ms·

Agreed. I'm reading his book Creativity Inc. right now, and it's chock-full of goodness. Except that now, I question the very motives and integrity of the autho

Agreed. I'm reading his book Creativity Inc. right now, and it's chock-full of goodness. Except that now, I question the very motives and integrity of the author, so the whole thing is completely suspect, and I might just not continue reading.

samstave 12y ago
I think the thing is that while people can do good things, they can also do really bad/weird things to others when all of their hierarchy of needs is met. I he has money, power, comfort, is top-of-his-game -- then its very easy to really act as though it is a game and his actions only strengthening his position and the position of the system that supports his position (the company). So in his mind, he is just being efficient/business minded/shrewd etc... and doesn't realize he is actually fucking up the lives of others -- he is only seeing it from his own perspective; that he is an effective person making shit-tons of money. Utter lack of compassion/human perspective.
- chris_mahan 12y ago
  Exactly right. They think it's just a game. Bastards.
- sitkack 12y ago
  We are all our best when we are a _little_ hungry.
cookiecaper 12y ago
We're too fast to discard people in this community. The linked article is heavily editorialized; it doesn't represent anything like even-handed coverage. We should give important figures in our community the benefit of the doubt, and learn how to respectfully disagree with one another. Even if something is illegal, it's not necessarily self-evidently immoral, and Catmull et al easily could've made anti-poaching pacts without the intention of suppressing employee wages. We're only getting one side of the story here: the story of the DOJ, which has its own political interests. And in typical fashion with these highly sensationalized scandals, bullying and shame are deployed to force people into one camp or the other. People are discouraged from finding a middle ground, trying to empathize with both sides, etc. They're told, "X is bad, and Y did X! How can you still act in any reasonable manner toward Y? He must be banished!" We need to be careful and we need to quit feeding our own to the wolves. We need to back off of our hair-trigger. So far, I know of no documentation that shows clear mens rea on the part of Catmull, and even if that is shown, it doesn't mean all of his contributions should be thrown out the door. That's very simple-minded, silly thinking.
- bsimpson 12y ago
  You've had a handful of very insightful responses in a thread that is otherwise busy sharpening their pitchforks. Thanks for keeping it real. =)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- shiven 12y ago
  Sorry to invoke Godwin's law here. But now your defense of Catmull is quickly devolving into "What about all the good things Hitler did?".
  - cookiecaper 12y ago
    Do you understand how absolutely absurd it is to compare the perpetrator of one of the world's most expansive genocides to two executives that agreed they wouldn't actively poach each others' employees? Also, what about all the good things Hitler did? I think that's a historical perspective that's often lacking. It can be satisfying to paint people who've committed crimes as Satan incarnate, but that's not realistic, and selling a fantastical version of history as definitive can have serious long-term consequences.
    - shiven 12y ago
      Also, what about all the good things Hitler did? None of the good deeds matter anymore once the level of bad deeds exceeds a moral threshold. Just as there is redemption for exceeding your past bad deeds with present and future good deeds, so there is damnation for doing the opposite. Now, we can argue till we are blue in the face about what the moral threshold should be, but it varies from person to person, society to society and civilization to civilization. In this day and age, Ed Catmull (arguably with intent) conspired to harm other human beings' earnings, something that not only affects those humans directly, but indirectly their immediate families as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to speak from the perspective of someone who is financially all set, without monetary concerns that can adversely affect your children's education (public vs private schooling, college vs no college), a family member requiring expensive healthcare (chronic disease, terminal care) or concerns about home ownership. In my mind, you being free of such burdens (for whatever reason), are free to take the other (higher/lower) road of thought. But just because you are not affected by someone artificially limiting your income, does not mean others who are affected should shut up and suck it in without calling out the perpetrator for what they did. In their mind, and for many here, Ed Catmull is now damned. You are welcome to call it silly minded and simplistic, but that does not change the facts of this case.
chaostheory 12y ago
Just because someone made a mistake, it shouldn't automatically make all of their work 'evil'.
- bcoates 12y ago
  If someone lies about the things you can check, you should automatically assume the things you can't check are lies too.
- kabdib 12y ago
  A public apology might be nice. I'm not going to burn my graphics books, but I'm really disappointed with Pixar right now. "This needs to be nipped in the bud." Um, yeah.

samstave 12y ago

I think the thing is that while people can do good things, they can also do really bad/weird things to others when all of their hierarchy of needs is met. I he has money, power, comfort, is top-of-his-game -- then its very easy to really act as though it is a game and his actions only strengthening his position and the position of the system that supports his position (the company). So in his mind, he is just being efficient/business minded/shrewd etc... and doesn't realize he is actually fucking up the lives of others -- he is only seeing it from his own perspective; that he is an effective person making shit-tons of money. Utter lack of compassion/human perspective.

chris_mahan 12y ago
Exactly right. They think it's just a game. Bastards.
sitkack 12y ago
We are all our best when we are a _little_ hungry.

cookiecaper 12y ago

We're too fast to discard people in this community. The linked article is heavily editorialized; it doesn't represent anything like even-handed coverage. We should give important figures in our community the benefit of the doubt, and learn how to respectfully disagree with one another. Even if something is illegal, it's not necessarily self-evidently immoral, and Catmull et al easily could've made anti-poaching pacts without the intention of suppressing employee wages. We're only getting one side of the story here: the story of the DOJ, which has its own political interests. And in typical fashion with these highly sensationalized scandals, bullying and shame are deployed to force people into one camp or the other. People are discouraged from finding a middle ground, trying to empathize with both sides, etc. They're told, "X is bad, and Y did X! How can you still act in any reasonable manner toward Y? He must be banished!" We need to be careful and we need to quit feeding our own to the wolves. We need to back off of our hair-trigger. So far, I know of no documentation that shows clear mens rea on the part of Catmull, and even if that is shown, it doesn't mean all of his contributions should be thrown out the door. That's very simple-minded, silly thinking.

bsimpson 12y ago
You've had a handful of very insightful responses in a thread that is otherwise busy sharpening their pitchforks. Thanks for keeping it real. =)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
shiven 12y ago
Sorry to invoke Godwin's law here. But now your defense of Catmull is quickly devolving into "What about all the good things Hitler did?".
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  Do you understand how absolutely absurd it is to compare the perpetrator of one of the world's most expansive genocides to two executives that agreed they wouldn't actively poach each others' employees? Also, what about all the good things Hitler did? I think that's a historical perspective that's often lacking. It can be satisfying to paint people who've committed crimes as Satan incarnate, but that's not realistic, and selling a fantastical version of history as definitive can have serious long-term consequences.
  - shiven 12y ago
    Also, what about all the good things Hitler did? None of the good deeds matter anymore once the level of bad deeds exceeds a moral threshold. Just as there is redemption for exceeding your past bad deeds with present and future good deeds, so there is damnation for doing the opposite. Now, we can argue till we are blue in the face about what the moral threshold should be, but it varies from person to person, society to society and civilization to civilization. In this day and age, Ed Catmull (arguably with intent) conspired to harm other human beings' earnings, something that not only affects those humans directly, but indirectly their immediate families as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to speak from the perspective of someone who is financially all set, without monetary concerns that can adversely affect your children's education (public vs private schooling, college vs no college), a family member requiring expensive healthcare (chronic disease, terminal care) or concerns about home ownership. In my mind, you being free of such burdens (for whatever reason), are free to take the other (higher/lower) road of thought. But just because you are not affected by someone artificially limiting your income, does not mean others who are affected should shut up and suck it in without calling out the perpetrator for what they did. In their mind, and for many here, Ed Catmull is now damned. You are welcome to call it silly minded and simplistic, but that does not change the facts of this case.

chaostheory 12y ago

Just because someone made a mistake, it shouldn't automatically make all of their work 'evil'.

bcoates 12y ago
If someone lies about the things you can check, you should automatically assume the things you can't check are lies too.
kabdib 12y ago
A public apology might be nice. I'm not going to burn my graphics books, but I'm really disappointed with Pixar right now. "This needs to be nipped in the bud." Um, yeah.