6 ms·

Newly Discovered Smallpox Samples

92 points by drcode 12y ago

robbiet480 12y ago
Scary to put it lightly. You'd think that we would be more careful with such things. I could only imagine who actually found the sample, and if they even realized what it was without Googling. An even worse thought would be if they were to just throw it in the trash.
- ovi256 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure anyone that speaks a Romance language may recognize 'variola' as smallpox. I guess the original label used the Latin name. Also, in a CDC laboratory, I'd bet dollars vs pennies there's already a protocol for handling "old badly labelled samples" that includes "not opening" and "not misplacing".
  - justizin 12y ago
    yeah i don't think you throw random stuff in the trash, i'm sure they go into a bio hazard disposal.
  - mikecb 12y ago
    It began at the FDA, which doesn't routinely handle substances of this type. That's why it was transferred to NIH in Bethesda temporarily while the CDC team came up from Atlanta.
    - aroch 12y ago
      Well, no, it began at the NIH. NIH handed the labs over to the FDA, and apparently missed a vial during the move.
      - mikecb 12y ago
        Ahh. Yet still, it was not found at CDC by CDC employees more likely to be trained to handle highly infectious samples.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > I'm pretty sure anyone that speaks a Romance language may recognize 'variola' as smallpox. Wait, what? Are you limiting that to people who work in an area where they might possibly come into contact with it? Because otherwise you might find it fun to ask the next hundred people you meet what "variola" is.
    - moioci 12y ago
      You realize English is not a Romance language?
- nathannecro 12y ago
  In general, when you come across any sample that's not yours or something whose label you can't read or don't recognize, you don't touch it at all until you can find someone who does. If you can't find anybody, you handle that sample as if it contains poison - even if it's just a long-dead colony. I assume that the CDC/FDA/NIH have more stringent protocol in place.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    Meanwhile: OFFICIALS at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently discovered that at least 75 workers there had been exposed to possible anthrax infection. and Based on current reports, the problem arose when anthrax — incorrectly thought to be dead — was removed from the high-containment lab and exposed people who had no knowledge that they were in contact with live bacteria. from http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/opinion/anthrax-thats-not-the-real-worry.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/opinion/anthrax-thats-not-...
    - nathannecro 12y ago
      Yeah, I read that. Just like in all disasters, the biggest contributor to catastrophic failure is human error. I'm sure the protocols were in place to prevent something like this from happening.
iandanforth 12y ago
The most impressive part of this for me is that there is international law and oversight which was immediately brought into play. WHO representatives being invited to watch the destruction? That is both extremely responsible and acknowledges an authority outside of the US government. That mindset is far too rare in this country.
- PeterGriffin 12y ago
  If you think about it, this falls firmly into the "symbolic gestures" category. They had nothing to gain or lose from making this into a political statement, so they invited them. You learn about responsibility and authority when there is something to gain or lose.
  - refurb 12y ago
    Excellent observation. Whenever you see international power acquiesce to an international power (the UN is a great example), it's because it's political expedient to do so, not because they stand in awe of the international body.
- mikecb 12y ago
  Technocrats tend to work well with other technocrats.
  - niels_olson 12y ago
    To be fair, anyone who's ever been in a biologic lab setting is probably interested in this stuff enough to know about smallpox being held exclusively in Atlanta and VECTOR, and know enough to immediately cover those with every covering available and, at the same time, calling for help to everyone who could help until help arrived. Can you imagine the consequences?! Ms Dumblefoot, would you tell us the story of Steve Campbell again? Well children, he was a researcher at NIH who found smallpox and dumped it in the trash. It was scattered to the winds from the top of Fort Totten and that's ultimately how, after a few cycles of unexplained seasons of worsening local outbreaks, 10% of the greater DC metro population, and half the healthcare workers, died in the great 2023 outbreak just before vaccination was back in full swing. It should be contained in another 30 to 40 years, assuming the Chinese haven't weaponized it.
nickthemagicman 12y ago
"eradicated"
- malka 12y ago
  in the sense that no human is currently infected with smallpox. The virus itself is kinda resistant. It notably resists freezing, so it is very possible that the virus survived in the permafrost.
markwakeford 12y ago
Was there not a debate recently on wether to dispose of the last vials of smallpox because there would be no need to produce a vaccine as the virus had been eradicated.....
- rdtsc 12y ago
  Not sure where I read it, or heard from someone, but it was about how some such similar disease (maybe even smallpox) that produces scabs and how someone found a scab from it in a library manuscript. This is somewhat similar.
  - mrbill 12y ago
    Wikipedia: "In March 2004 smallpox scabs were found tucked inside an envelope in a book on Civil War medicine in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The envelope was labeled as containing scabs from a vaccination and gave scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention an opportunity to study the history of smallpox vaccination in the U.S."
    - rdtsc 12y ago
      Ah thank you. That's the story I remember!
    - moioci 12y ago
      So these scabs would be the product of infection with vaccinia and not variola, if my understanding is correct.
- Houshalter 12y ago
  I don't recall that. I do remember an article recently about recreating Spanish Flu in the laboratory. It's very controversial because it spread quickly and killed millions of people in a really short time span. For smallpox, some believe it's possible it may still exist somewhere cold frozen in ice. I don't know how credible that threat is though.
Steko 12y ago
Since the virus survives freezing there's certainly some frozen bodies that harbor the disease as well. The idea is sort of dismissed in [1] but the CDC quotes there are more about the prospects for a pandemic then whether the virus is likely present all over the arctic (etc.) or not. [1] http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-corpses-thaw-from-1514969971 http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-corp... edit: According to [2] things like tundra smallpox are the reason the US didn't want to destroy the last lab samples. [2] http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-tundra-releases-infected-corpses.html http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-tundr...
- weaksauce 12y ago
  They haven't destroyed the last samples. There are official samples in America and Russia still.
  - justin66 12y ago
    Can you provide any references to that effect? I'm pretty sure the closest we still officially have is a virus that is derived from smallpox, which they convinced to jump species and infect apes. Unofficially, well... case in point.
    - BoppreH 12y ago
      From TFA: By international agreement, there are two official World Health Organization (WHO)-designated repositories for smallpox: CDC in Atlanta, Georgia and the State Research Centre of Virology and Biotechnology (VECTOR) in Novosibirsk, Russia. The WHO oversees the inspection of these smallpox facilities and conducts periodic reviews to certify the repositories for safety and security.
      - justin66 12y ago
        Thanks. It's a little surprising to me since I seem to remember one of Richard Preston's books ending with VECTOR and CDC destroying their samples (and doing the species jump to create something that would theoretically infect monkeys but not people). Perhaps my recollection is incorrect... I remain amused at how wrath of god people can get with the downvoting. :)
noodle 12y ago
Question for those with knowledge -- would a 60-ish year old sample still be virulent/communicable/whatever?
- timr 12y ago
  Possible, but not incredibly likely unless it was prepared via freeze-drying for long-term storage. I wouldn't want to huff it, though.
  - tjohns 12y ago
    "They were freeze-dried, intact and sealed, forgotten and packed away in a cardboard box, officials said." http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-smallpox-20140708-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-smallpox...
    - timr 12y ago
      Yeah, so that's a bit scarier. Lyophilized samples are fairly shelf-stable. There's a much better chance they'd be infectious.
- mikeyouse 12y ago
  It's pretty unlikely that it would be communicable after such a long period without being specifically preserved under controlled conditions. Live viral vaccines are typically shipped in a preservative and kept on dry ice during transit after which they are kept in a freezer until immediately before administration. This is one of the reasons it's so difficult to vaccinate large swaths of underdeveloped areas. I can't imagine a vial in a closet could maintain a culture 'on accident' for more than a few months.
TrainedMonkey 12y ago
I think bringing up Biohazard[0], a book about soviet bio warfare experiments and the culture they were conducted in seems pertinent. In particular it is illuminating, if not factually accurate, how Soviets covered up accidents at their bio weapon research facilities. Book paints a grim picture of how this could have been handled, in light of that I applaud actions taken by NIH and CDC. http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-World-Told/dp/0385334966 http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-...
- Wingman4l7 12y ago
  I was initially keen to read this, as it appears to be one of the only works on the topic of the Soviet bio-warfare program. However, the author's scientific credibility and "authenticity" (for lack of a better term) has been called into question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism However, there are some Soviet bio-weapon incidents I've read about which were verified (by people other than Ken Alibek) as having genuinely occurred.
geuis 12y ago
Confused about this part: "Additional testing of the variola samples is under way to determine if the material in the vials is viable (i.e., can grow in tissue culture). This testing could take up to 2 weeks. After completion of this testing, the samples will be destroyed." Why not just destroy the samples outright? What's the reason for incubating a live sample and then destroying it?
- aroch 12y ago
  On discovery (or receipt) of a select agent you always, always, test for viability. There are a few reasons, a few that rank high on the list: they want to know how long smallpox can survive in inappropriate storage (too hot, freeze/thaw, etc); they want to genotype and phenotype this sample for records in case it shows up else where; viable, unpassaged smallpox is rare.
  - geuis 12y ago
    Makes sense. Also, I just realized, is if it's viable was there any opportunity for exposure.
BoppreH 12y ago
Just to remind everyone what we are dealing with here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. Half a billion people dead, after a vaccine was discovered. And that was one century of the 12,000 years it has existed. That's why I get shivers from the opening of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox: Smallpox *was* an infectious disease... [...] To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious disease to have been completely eradicated.
gizmo686 12y ago
Can anyone comment on how bad it would be if this sample were viable and exposed to a populated area?
- kstenerud 12y ago
  People are only infectious after the rash appears, and remain infectious for about 2 weeks. Transmission usually requires prolonged face-to-face contact with an infected person. Prior to the rash appearing, the infected person will feel lethargic and ill, and will likely take to bed. So if there were a potent enough exposure event, it would be fairly easy to recognize and contain. Smallpox wouldn't make a very effective biological weapon (except for psychological effect).
andyjohnson0 12y ago
How are virus samples such as these usually destroyed? Heat? Chemicals?
- TheCondor 12y ago
  Autoclave.
  - Retric 12y ago
    Which uses heat.
joshdance 12y ago
Wondering why we are keeping two samples? Is it for future use 'just in case' or is there some great reason I am missing?

92 points by drcode 12y ago

Scary to put it lightly. You'd think that we would be more careful with such things. I could only imagine who actually found the sample, and if they even realized what it was without Googling. An even worse thought would be if they were to just throw it in the trash.

ovi256 12y ago
I'm pretty sure anyone that speaks a Romance language may recognize 'variola' as smallpox. I guess the original label used the Latin name. Also, in a CDC laboratory, I'd bet dollars vs pennies there's already a protocol for handling "old badly labelled samples" that includes "not opening" and "not misplacing".
- justizin 12y ago
  yeah i don't think you throw random stuff in the trash, i'm sure they go into a bio hazard disposal.
- mikecb 12y ago
  It began at the FDA, which doesn't routinely handle substances of this type. That's why it was transferred to NIH in Bethesda temporarily while the CDC team came up from Atlanta.
  - aroch 12y ago
    Well, no, it began at the NIH. NIH handed the labs over to the FDA, and apparently missed a vial during the move.
    - mikecb 12y ago
      Ahh. Yet still, it was not found at CDC by CDC employees more likely to be trained to handle highly infectious samples.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > I'm pretty sure anyone that speaks a Romance language may recognize 'variola' as smallpox. Wait, what? Are you limiting that to people who work in an area where they might possibly come into contact with it? Because otherwise you might find it fun to ask the next hundred people you meet what "variola" is.
  - moioci 12y ago
    You realize English is not a Romance language?
nathannecro 12y ago
In general, when you come across any sample that's not yours or something whose label you can't read or don't recognize, you don't touch it at all until you can find someone who does. If you can't find anybody, you handle that sample as if it contains poison - even if it's just a long-dead colony. I assume that the CDC/FDA/NIH have more stringent protocol in place.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Meanwhile: OFFICIALS at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently discovered that at least 75 workers there had been exposed to possible anthrax infection. and Based on current reports, the problem arose when anthrax — incorrectly thought to be dead — was removed from the high-containment lab and exposed people who had no knowledge that they were in contact with live bacteria. from http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/opinion/anthrax-thats-not-the-real-worry.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/opinion/anthrax-thats-not-...
  - nathannecro 12y ago
    Yeah, I read that. Just like in all disasters, the biggest contributor to catastrophic failure is human error. I'm sure the protocols were in place to prevent something like this from happening.

iandanforth 12y ago

The most impressive part of this for me is that there is international law and oversight which was immediately brought into play. WHO representatives being invited to watch the destruction? That is both extremely responsible and acknowledges an authority outside of the US government. That mindset is far too rare in this country.

PeterGriffin 12y ago
If you think about it, this falls firmly into the "symbolic gestures" category. They had nothing to gain or lose from making this into a political statement, so they invited them. You learn about responsibility and authority when there is something to gain or lose.
- refurb 12y ago
  Excellent observation. Whenever you see international power acquiesce to an international power (the UN is a great example), it's because it's political expedient to do so, not because they stand in awe of the international body.
mikecb 12y ago
Technocrats tend to work well with other technocrats.
- niels_olson 12y ago
  To be fair, anyone who's ever been in a biologic lab setting is probably interested in this stuff enough to know about smallpox being held exclusively in Atlanta and VECTOR, and know enough to immediately cover those with every covering available and, at the same time, calling for help to everyone who could help until help arrived. Can you imagine the consequences?! Ms Dumblefoot, would you tell us the story of Steve Campbell again? Well children, he was a researcher at NIH who found smallpox and dumped it in the trash. It was scattered to the winds from the top of Fort Totten and that's ultimately how, after a few cycles of unexplained seasons of worsening local outbreaks, 10% of the greater DC metro population, and half the healthcare workers, died in the great 2023 outbreak just before vaccination was back in full swing. It should be contained in another 30 to 40 years, assuming the Chinese haven't weaponized it.

nickthemagicman 12y ago

"eradicated"

malka 12y ago
in the sense that no human is currently infected with smallpox. The virus itself is kinda resistant. It notably resists freezing, so it is very possible that the virus survived in the permafrost.

markwakeford 12y ago

Was there not a debate recently on wether to dispose of the last vials of smallpox because there would be no need to produce a vaccine as the virus had been eradicated.....

rdtsc 12y ago
Not sure where I read it, or heard from someone, but it was about how some such similar disease (maybe even smallpox) that produces scabs and how someone found a scab from it in a library manuscript. This is somewhat similar.
- mrbill 12y ago
  Wikipedia: "In March 2004 smallpox scabs were found tucked inside an envelope in a book on Civil War medicine in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The envelope was labeled as containing scabs from a vaccination and gave scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention an opportunity to study the history of smallpox vaccination in the U.S."
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    Ah thank you. That's the story I remember!
  - moioci 12y ago
    So these scabs would be the product of infection with vaccinia and not variola, if my understanding is correct.
Houshalter 12y ago
I don't recall that. I do remember an article recently about recreating Spanish Flu in the laboratory. It's very controversial because it spread quickly and killed millions of people in a really short time span. For smallpox, some believe it's possible it may still exist somewhere cold frozen in ice. I don't know how credible that threat is though.

Steko 12y ago

Since the virus survives freezing there's certainly some frozen bodies that harbor the disease as well. The idea is sort of dismissed in [1] but the CDC quotes there are more about the prospects for a pandemic then whether the virus is likely present all over the arctic (etc.) or not. [1] http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-corpses-thaw-from-1514969971 http://gizmodo.com/will-smallpox-reemerge-in-siberia-as-corp... edit: According to [2] things like tundra smallpox are the reason the US didn't want to destroy the last lab samples. [2] http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-tundra-releases-infected-corpses.html http://www.livescience.com/2403-climate-threat-thawing-tundr...

weaksauce 12y ago
They haven't destroyed the last samples. There are official samples in America and Russia still.
- justin66 12y ago
  Can you provide any references to that effect? I'm pretty sure the closest we still officially have is a virus that is derived from smallpox, which they convinced to jump species and infect apes. Unofficially, well... case in point.
  - BoppreH 12y ago
    From TFA: By international agreement, there are two official World Health Organization (WHO)-designated repositories for smallpox: CDC in Atlanta, Georgia and the State Research Centre of Virology and Biotechnology (VECTOR) in Novosibirsk, Russia. The WHO oversees the inspection of these smallpox facilities and conducts periodic reviews to certify the repositories for safety and security.
    - justin66 12y ago
      Thanks. It's a little surprising to me since I seem to remember one of Richard Preston's books ending with VECTOR and CDC destroying their samples (and doing the species jump to create something that would theoretically infect monkeys but not people). Perhaps my recollection is incorrect... I remain amused at how wrath of god people can get with the downvoting. :)

noodle 12y ago

Question for those with knowledge -- would a 60-ish year old sample still be virulent/communicable/whatever?

timr 12y ago
Possible, but not incredibly likely unless it was prepared via freeze-drying for long-term storage. I wouldn't want to huff it, though.
- tjohns 12y ago
  "They were freeze-dried, intact and sealed, forgotten and packed away in a cardboard box, officials said." http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-smallpox-20140708-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-smallpox...
  - timr 12y ago
    Yeah, so that's a bit scarier. Lyophilized samples are fairly shelf-stable. There's a much better chance they'd be infectious.
mikeyouse 12y ago
It's pretty unlikely that it would be communicable after such a long period without being specifically preserved under controlled conditions. Live viral vaccines are typically shipped in a preservative and kept on dry ice during transit after which they are kept in a freezer until immediately before administration. This is one of the reasons it's so difficult to vaccinate large swaths of underdeveloped areas. I can't imagine a vial in a closet could maintain a culture 'on accident' for more than a few months.

TrainedMonkey 12y ago

I think bringing up Biohazard[0], a book about soviet bio warfare experiments and the culture they were conducted in seems pertinent. In particular it is illuminating, if not factually accurate, how Soviets covered up accidents at their bio weapon research facilities. Book paints a grim picture of how this could have been handled, in light of that I applaud actions taken by NIH and CDC. http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-World-Told/dp/0385334966 http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-...

Wingman4l7 12y ago
I was initially keen to read this, as it appears to be one of the only works on the topic of the Soviet bio-warfare program. However, the author's scientific credibility and "authenticity" (for lack of a better term) has been called into question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek#Criticism However, there are some Soviet bio-weapon incidents I've read about which were verified (by people other than Ken Alibek) as having genuinely occurred.

geuis 12y ago

Confused about this part: "Additional testing of the variola samples is under way to determine if the material in the vials is viable (i.e., can grow in tissue culture). This testing could take up to 2 weeks. After completion of this testing, the samples will be destroyed." Why not just destroy the samples outright? What's the reason for incubating a live sample and then destroying it?

aroch 12y ago
On discovery (or receipt) of a select agent you always, always, test for viability. There are a few reasons, a few that rank high on the list: they want to know how long smallpox can survive in inappropriate storage (too hot, freeze/thaw, etc); they want to genotype and phenotype this sample for records in case it shows up else where; viable, unpassaged smallpox is rare.
- geuis 12y ago
  Makes sense. Also, I just realized, is if it's viable was there any opportunity for exposure.

BoppreH 12y ago

Just to remind everyone what we are dealing with here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. Half a billion people dead, after a vaccine was discovered. And that was one century of the 12,000 years it has existed. That's why I get shivers from the opening of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox: Smallpox *was* an infectious disease... [...] To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious disease to have been completely eradicated.

gizmo686 12y ago

Can anyone comment on how bad it would be if this sample were viable and exposed to a populated area?

kstenerud 12y ago
People are only infectious after the rash appears, and remain infectious for about 2 weeks. Transmission usually requires prolonged face-to-face contact with an infected person. Prior to the rash appearing, the infected person will feel lethargic and ill, and will likely take to bed. So if there were a potent enough exposure event, it would be fairly easy to recognize and contain. Smallpox wouldn't make a very effective biological weapon (except for psychological effect).

andyjohnson0 12y ago

How are virus samples such as these usually destroyed? Heat? Chemicals?

TheCondor 12y ago
Autoclave.
- Retric 12y ago
  Which uses heat.

joshdance 12y ago

Wondering why we are keeping two samples? Is it for future use 'just in case' or is there some great reason I am missing?