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This methodology is suspect, and the headline is extremely deceptive. Note that Guo has conflated CS0 (meaning: CS for non-majors) with CS1 (meaning: intro to

by blahedo 12y ago

This methodology is suspect, and the headline is extremely deceptive. Note that Guo has conflated CS0 (meaning: CS for non-majors) with CS1 (meaning: intro to CS major). He is upfront about this fact and he does it intentionally, but comments about "first officially-sanctioned exposure in college" and such make it sound like he's unaware that most CS majors do not ever take a CS0 course; and among instructors of CS, phrases like "introductory language" without further qualification is usually understood as referring to CS1. If we then look at the table of actual data to filter a little bit, the story changes. There are certainly some schools, big ones, that use Python in CS1. But a lot of the Python representation is coming from CS0 at schools where CS1 is taught using Java. (I can also clarify one of his other comments: he says of the AP exam using Java that "it's unclear whether that will change anytime soon." This is untrue. It will not change in the next 3-4 years at the very minimum---and that would be the time frame if the College Board said right now today that a change was happening. In fact, though, although the idea's been mentioned, there has been no study or apparent motion on that front, so a more realistic earliest-date-of-change would be around 2019 or 2020. And I wouldn't count on it, given how many CS1 courses are still taught in Java.)

cyorir 12y ago
I think this is a good point. And in this respect I feel like the chosen data may have been cherry-picked or are somewhat incomplete. As an example, take Northwestern. At Northwestern there are several intro routes you could take, depending on your major. CS Majors are not required to learn Python - it is used in some 300-level classes but not in very many 200-level classes (although that may change in the coming years). I've actually taken classes with projects using Python without ever taking classes teaching Python. CS majors will likely take C, C++, Java, MATLAB, or a variant on scheme for their first language, depending on which sequence they take, whether or not they are double-majors, or course scheduling. In contrast, non-CS majors may learn C++, Python, MATLAB, or a variant of scheme as a first programming course, depending on why they are learning a programming language. So while schools like Northwestern may offer introductory courses in Python, I think the truth is more something along the lines of "students may learn Python, or they may learn any of a number of different languages as their first language, depending on what their academic goals/requirements are."
tripproberts 12y ago
Using Georgia Tech as an example, the two classes mentioned are the introductory courses for industrial engineers and business majors. The article excludes the introductory course for CS majors (1331) which is taught in Java and the introductory course for most engineers (1371) which is taught in Matlab .
- scythe 12y ago
  >the introductory course for most engineers (1371) which is taught in Matlab . A fair point of warning is that, having been at Georgia Tech 2008-2011, most of my friends in engineering and physics freshman year hated CS 1371, and spent many a late weeknight complaining about Matlab. The common wisdom, often picked up too late, was that engineering students would have a better time if they switched into the Python course, iirc CS 1301. For my part, I had placed out with AP credit, but took CS 2110 using a combination of LogicWorks (circuits), LC-3 assembler and C. I thought it was awesome; that course is probably the reason I have my current job, but many of my friends never considered taking another CS course, or only did so several years later, because they hated Matlab so much.
  - acbart 12y ago
    In my experience: ask any Computer Science professor interested in undergraduate education whether engineers should take an intro course using Matlab or Python, and they'll always say Python. Ask any non-CS Engineering professor interested in engineering undergraduate education whether engineers should take an intro course using Matlab or Python, and they'll always say Python. This argument seems pervasive across many institutions.
pgbovine 12y ago
Author here. Thanks for your comments blahedo. I'm a bit short on time right now, but I will convert some parts of this response into more coherent form and edit my article accordingly to clarify. I'll address each of your paragraphs in turn: 1.) Re: CS0 vs. CS1. Like you mentioned, I was very upfront about the methodology for this analysis. And I am very aware that most CS majors do not ever take a CS0 course. But please also be aware that there are a minority of CS majors that do take CS0 before moving onto CS1, usually because they feel ill-equipped to take CS1 right away. I harp on this point because even though this is a minority population, it's a very important one since those are students who, without CS0, would not major in CS. These students are more likely to be female or from underrepresented minority groups. On a related note, a larger and larger fraction of non-CS majors are taking CS courses because they recognize the value of programming and computational thinking. (Again, these non-CS majors are more likely to be female and from underrepresented minority groups.) So I would argue that CS0 is just as important as an "introductory programming" course as CS1, if not more important, due to the rise of the non-software-engineers-who-want-to-learn-programming population. [Edit: And I think that a CS department's choice of language to offer to the CS0 student population is still very significant, and a decision that is not made hastily.] 2.) Re: Python CS0 and Java CS1. You are absolutely right, and in my original article, this sentence appears in the discussion section: "Some schools have fully switched over to Python, while others take a hybrid approach, offering Python in CS0 and keeping Java in CS1." 3.) Re: AP exams using Java. Thanks for the clarification. I will remove "it's unclear whether that will change anytime soon." from the article. [Also, as to cyorir's comment that the chosen data may have been cherry-picked, please rest assured that I tried my best NOT to cherry pick. If I had cherry picked, wouldn't I have made Python look even better? ;) Any incomplete data is strictly due to human error or oversight on my part, and I gladly welcome any correction requests via email.]
- yminsky 12y ago
  ML (OCaml and SML) seems to get short shrift in your analysis. CS51 at Harvard is in OCaml. Brown's cs017 is OCaml, Scheme, Scala and Java. Penn's CS120 is OCaml (I think. It definitely used to be, but I can't find the course online anymore. You can reach out to Benjamin Pierce to ask, though.) And CMU has an SML-based FP course as part of their intro sequence None of this is to deny the fact that Python is highly popular as an intro language.

by blahedo 12y ago

cyorir 12y ago

I think this is a good point. And in this respect I feel like the chosen data may have been cherry-picked or are somewhat incomplete. As an example, take Northwestern. At Northwestern there are several intro routes you could take, depending on your major. CS Majors are not required to learn Python - it is used in some 300-level classes but not in very many 200-level classes (although that may change in the coming years). I've actually taken classes with projects using Python without ever taking classes teaching Python. CS majors will likely take C, C++, Java, MATLAB, or a variant on scheme for their first language, depending on which sequence they take, whether or not they are double-majors, or course scheduling. In contrast, non-CS majors may learn C++, Python, MATLAB, or a variant of scheme as a first programming course, depending on why they are learning a programming language. So while schools like Northwestern may offer introductory courses in Python, I think the truth is more something along the lines of "students may learn Python, or they may learn any of a number of different languages as their first language, depending on what their academic goals/requirements are."

tripproberts 12y ago

Using Georgia Tech as an example, the two classes mentioned are the introductory courses for industrial engineers and business majors. The article excludes the introductory course for CS majors (1331) which is taught in Java and the introductory course for most engineers (1371) which is taught in Matlab .

scythe 12y ago
>the introductory course for most engineers (1371) which is taught in Matlab . A fair point of warning is that, having been at Georgia Tech 2008-2011, most of my friends in engineering and physics freshman year hated CS 1371, and spent many a late weeknight complaining about Matlab. The common wisdom, often picked up too late, was that engineering students would have a better time if they switched into the Python course, iirc CS 1301. For my part, I had placed out with AP credit, but took CS 2110 using a combination of LogicWorks (circuits), LC-3 assembler and C. I thought it was awesome; that course is probably the reason I have my current job, but many of my friends never considered taking another CS course, or only did so several years later, because they hated Matlab so much.
- acbart 12y ago
  In my experience: ask any Computer Science professor interested in undergraduate education whether engineers should take an intro course using Matlab or Python, and they'll always say Python. Ask any non-CS Engineering professor interested in engineering undergraduate education whether engineers should take an intro course using Matlab or Python, and they'll always say Python. This argument seems pervasive across many institutions.

pgbovine 12y ago

Author here. Thanks for your comments blahedo. I'm a bit short on time right now, but I will convert some parts of this response into more coherent form and edit my article accordingly to clarify. I'll address each of your paragraphs in turn: 1.) Re: CS0 vs. CS1. Like you mentioned, I was very upfront about the methodology for this analysis. And I am very aware that most CS majors do not ever take a CS0 course. But please also be aware that there are a minority of CS majors that do take CS0 before moving onto CS1, usually because they feel ill-equipped to take CS1 right away. I harp on this point because even though this is a minority population, it's a very important one since those are students who, without CS0, would not major in CS. These students are more likely to be female or from underrepresented minority groups. On a related note, a larger and larger fraction of non-CS majors are taking CS courses because they recognize the value of programming and computational thinking. (Again, these non-CS majors are more likely to be female and from underrepresented minority groups.) So I would argue that CS0 is just as important as an "introductory programming" course as CS1, if not more important, due to the rise of the non-software-engineers-who-want-to-learn-programming population. [Edit: And I think that a CS department's choice of language to offer to the CS0 student population is still very significant, and a decision that is not made hastily.] 2.) Re: Python CS0 and Java CS1. You are absolutely right, and in my original article, this sentence appears in the discussion section: "Some schools have fully switched over to Python, while others take a hybrid approach, offering Python in CS0 and keeping Java in CS1." 3.) Re: AP exams using Java. Thanks for the clarification. I will remove "it's unclear whether that will change anytime soon." from the article. [Also, as to cyorir's comment that the chosen data may have been cherry-picked, please rest assured that I tried my best NOT to cherry pick. If I had cherry picked, wouldn't I have made Python look even better? ;) Any incomplete data is strictly due to human error or oversight on my part, and I gladly welcome any correction requests via email.]

yminsky 12y ago
ML (OCaml and SML) seems to get short shrift in your analysis. CS51 at Harvard is in OCaml. Brown's cs017 is OCaml, Scheme, Scala and Java. Penn's CS120 is OCaml (I think. It definitely used to be, but I can't find the course online anymore. You can reach out to Benjamin Pierce to ask, though.) And CMU has an SML-based FP course as part of their intro sequence None of this is to deny the fact that Python is highly popular as an intro language.