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Ask HN: How best to learn software design principles?

• tzaman 12y ago
  http://cleancoders.com/ http://cleancoders.com/ See them all. The best investment you can make into yourself.
  • valarauca1 12y ago
    I hate to sound stingy but at $445 is there a cheaper alternative? Like a book, or maybe shorter series? What videos would prioritize over the others?
    • tzaman 12y ago
      Well $445 is nothing in contrast to what you can make if all this knowledge is put into effect. I would definitely recommend SOLID principles above others.
      • valarauca1 12y ago
        I say that because currently $445 represents 12 weeks of food for myself.
      • ivanche 12y ago
        It depends heavily on your place of living. In my country $445 is about or over the monthly salary for vast majority of people.
        • tzaman 12y ago
          Well yes, $445 can relatively be a lot of money, however, in times of globalisation and developers being in high demand one just has to think outside the box a bit and join a company remotely if possible. I'm not saying it's easy, but can be done.
    • ebiester 12y ago
      His book Clean Code would be a good start to what he has to say. The SOLID principles are important. Then I'd move on to Domain Driven Design and probably Refactoring and Growing Object Oriented Software, Guided By Tests. Those four will give a good start to what enterprise/OO people are expecting in design.
  • a-priori 12y ago
    While I don't disagree that Bob Martin presents useful information in those videos, his presentation style is... bizarre to say the least. You'll find as you watch them that the signal-to-noise ratio drops with each episode. In the last few, there's about ten minutes of useful information mixed in with about 50 minutes of cosmology lessons, tours of his house and neighbourhood, and babble amongst his various alter egos (Data, Sherlock, Spock, Minecraft guy, Ruby guy, Microsoft fanboy, and so on). Everyone has their own threshold for how much of that they can tolerate. For me, it crossed that about five episodes ago.
    • valarauca1 12y ago
      I asked elsewhere but perhaps I asked the wrong person. Which episodes would recommend in particular for the highest bang-for-my-buck?
      • a-priori 12y ago
        My memory's a bit foggy about what's in each one and how much of an acid trip they all are, but I'd say episodes 6-14 are kind of the sweet spot you're looking for. The next several, from 15-19 cover some good stuff but are getting really wacky, and beyond that could be good if they weren't so damned weird.
      • zerr 12y ago
        To be on the safer side - you can download videos from torrents and pay afterwards for the episodes you find valuable.
  • mattgreenrocks 12y ago
    DAS is great too: http://www.destroyallsoftware.com/ http://www.destroyallsoftware.com/
    • dochtman 12y ago
      Gary Bernhardt is currently working on a book: https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/485978334434586625 https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/485978334434586625 You could do worse than learning from his book when it comes out!
  • vitd 12y ago
    Geez! That guy on the thumbnail for the first video (Clean Code - The Last Programming Language) looks really angry. I don't think I want to learn anything from that.
    • Stratoscope 12y ago
      Scroll down. It gets so weird you'll soon forget that first thumbnail.
• chton 12y ago
  Dive into design patterns. Get yourself a good book listing them. The bible of all developers is the Gang Of Four (http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Elements-Reusable-Object-Oriented/dp/0201633612 http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Elements-Reusable-Obje...), but there are plenty good ones out there that aren't as dry and academic. Design patterns are the greatest tool there is for learning software design. If you know them, you can apply them, but much more importantly they show you how you can apply the basic principles of OO development to various problems. By learning them, you're learning the thought process of how they came to be, and you'll be able to apply those thought processes to your own problems. Consider it like learning algebra by doing exercises. You can read theory all you like, but unless you apply it it just won't click.
• tjr 12y ago
  You might find one of these interesting: http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/ http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/ http://www.amazon.com/Software-Architecture-Primer-John-Reekie/dp/0646458418/ http://www.amazon.com/Software-Architecture-Primer-John-Reek...
• tpae 12y ago
  Try this: http://addyosmani.com/resources/essentialjsdesignpatterns/book/ http://addyosmani.com/resources/essentialjsdesignpatterns/bo...
• skanuj 12y ago
  http://www.objectmentor.com/resources/publishedArticles.html http://www.objectmentor.com/resources/publishedArticles.html See Design principles before Design patterns. http://martinfowler.com/design.html http://martinfowler.com/design.html is also good.
• pessimizer 12y ago
  http://www.aosabook.org/en/ http://www.aosabook.org/en/ "Architects look at thousands of buildings during their training, and study critiques of those buildings written by masters. In contrast, most software developers only ever get to know a handful of large programs well—usually programs they wrote themselves—and never study the great programs of history. As a result, they repeat one another's mistakes rather than building on one another's successes. "Our goal is to change that. In these two books, the authors of four dozen open source applications explain how their software is structured, and why. What are each program's major components? How do they interact? And what did their builders learn during their development? In answering these questions, the contributors to these books provide unique insights into how they think. "If you are a junior developer, and want to learn how your more experienced colleagues think, these books are the place to start. If you are an intermediate or senior developer, and want to see how your peers have solved hard design problems, these books can help you too." edit: a major advantage to aosa is that all the source is available.
  • chton 12y ago
    This is a great suggestion. Make sure to buy all 3 books. Then, next time you come across an article about any of the techs in the book, spend the time reading how it was built. You'll learn loads.
  • lightblade 12y ago
    ^ This I was going to reply about experience (and code review) being the best teacher, but this is better. Critics from your peers are good, but critics from the experts are even better.
  • weitzj 12y ago
    These are really great books. I stumbled upon them while reading the great article about the Selenium WebDriver http://aosabook.org/en/selenium.html http://aosabook.org/en/selenium.html
  • nikhilalmeida 12y ago
    https://github.com/aosabook/500lines https://github.com/aosabook/500lines This is a repo of smaller real world applications that are 500 lines or less in length, so as not to be overwhelming to novice / intermediate programmers.
• kushti 12y ago
  The #1 book is "Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software" by Gamma/ Helm / Johnson / Vlissides. It's about imperative programming though, functional/hybrid languages have other design patterns(but "Design Patterns" is #1 anyway). + Free Book "The Architecture of Open Source Applications" : http://hackershelf.com/book/54/the-architecture-of-open-source-applications/ http://hackershelf.com/book/54/the-architecture-of-open-sour...
• halayli 12y ago
  * The C++ Programming Language 3rd edition, Part IV of the book. * Large-Scale C++ Software Design * The Practice of Programming * Code Complete These are a good start but in the end it's experience. It takes a lot of practice to build a good intuition when making software design decisions.
  • mattgreenrocks 12y ago
    Large Scale C++ Software Design is a real gem.
    • halayli 12y ago
      Yup. The author obviously have seen it all.
• laurenbee 12y ago
  Bob Nystrom's Game Programming Patterns is an engaging, informative book about design patterns that are commonly used in games but are relevant to non-game software too. http://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/ http://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/
  • adamnemecek 12y ago
    Sorry I unintentionally downvoted you when I wanted to upvote. But yeah that book is great.
  • squeaky-clean 12y ago
    I love this book. It's a good introduction to design patterns. Very well-written and entertaining, and filled with real code examples. It's certainly not boring, I was able to read it in about a weekend (and I read slowly). For a free book, that's such a quick read, it has a surprising amount of knowledge in it.
• seregine 12y ago
  The book that inspired software patterns. I found it more interesting than GoF's "Design Patterns", and it feels less dated these days: The Timeless Way of Building by Christopher Alexander http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Timeless_Way_of_Building http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Timeless_Way_of_Building The C2 wiki has interesting entries on software patterns and related ideas: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiPagesAboutWhatArePatterns http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiPagesAboutWhatArePatterns Stanford CS 240 has a great list of papers on system design: http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs240/ http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs240/ One paper that's no longer on that list, but I remember from when I took the class: End-to-end arguments in system design http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoen...
  • jalfresi 12y ago
    Another good one by the same author Christopher Alexander is "Notes on the synthesis of form", my all time favorite book
• mattgreenrocks 12y ago
  Don't feel too bad; the pop culture side of programming (a lot of HN) is profoundly anti-design of any type. This is likely a reaction to perceived overdesign of years past, such as in Enterprise Java. Thus, you don't see as many articles about the topic. (I also sense a bit of nerd-indignation over the fact that this is a squishy subject and nobody's completely right). Read the AOSA book, read Design Patterns, and read something like Domain-Driven Design. Realize that no-architecture is frequently chosen due to ignorance ('pragmatism'). Know SOLID back and forth. Understand why people strive to isolate things when doing TDD. Recognize and know how to decrease coupling, and what the costs of that are. You can practice these concepts every day, and you should, if only to develop the necessary element of taste. You'll go through a phase where you adhere to these ideas religiously, then eventually assimilate the knowledge so that it becomes almost unconscious. Best of luck.
  • napoleond 12y ago
    Don't feel too bad; the pop culture side of programming (a lot of HN) is profoundly anti-design of any type. I think that's a surprising characterization; it doesn't jive with my own perception (as subjective as that may be). I think the past decade has (rightly or wrongly) seen a reaction in our industry against enterprise-style "architecture astronauts" but that doesn't equate to being "anti-design". (I'm thinking of the emergence of Rails-like frameworks vs. the JEE stack, and then the emergence of micro-frameworks like Flask/Express/Sinatra after that.) Simple/reduced structure is a valid design choice (of course there are trade-offs that come with that, and of course they aren't always appropriate, but I don't think that means it's popular to be "anti-design").
    • jalfresi 12y ago
      " but that doesn't equate to being "anti-design" I agree fully. I feel that the shift has come about because there has been an unconscious recognition that restricting your tools to one particular problem domain is a valid constraint to make on a design. Enterprise scale, "architecture astronauts" and the like were trying to build tools with which you could build anything, for anyone. And it's clear from the results that this is just a vector for complexity to creep in. Focused tools, from libs to frameworks unashamedly limit themselves to one particular problem domain, or at least used to. I've certainly noticed a shift in that these hard learnt lessons are being ignored in order to add features to frameworks etc; which increase their applicable scope, with the increase in complexity that arises. The primary driver of which appears to be the younger generations desire to use the same tools for different purposes rather than learn a new set of applicable tools for a different problem domain. A good example is the shift from v1 Zend Framework to Zend Framework 2 which just appears to be so heavily "Java/Enterprise" influenced I simply refuse to use it; its far far too complex a framework for what is essentially a framework for building web sites. Building web sites is simple. These modern frameworks make it massively more complex than it needs to be.
• arikrak 12y ago
  I also was wondering if there was a good way to learn and practice this topic. There are many ways to do smaller coding challenges, but how do you practice software design without having an actual expert to talk to?
• shrig94 12y ago
  I think one of the most helpful classes at MIT for learning the basics of software design is 6.033. Class schedule and readings here: http://web.mit.edu/6.033/www/schedule.shtml http://web.mit.edu/6.033/www/schedule.shtml In particular, the papers covered topics of software design from failures (like Therac-25) to examples of successfully designed large scale systems (like Map Reduce). I'd highly recommend reading through the papers, most of which can be found via Google search.
• rubiquity 12y ago
  Learn a functional programming language. This has had the most impact on the way I think about systems by far. The biggest impact was realizing all of the time I've spent trying to master all of the OOP acronyms hasn't paid off. I've also realized that OOP might be meant for a type of programming that I don't do (video game logic? device drivers?), where as FP seems to fit great for Web applications that are just wrapping databases and spitting out HTML or JSON. As for FP languages for a starter, I'd recommend any of Erlang/Elixir, Clojure or Scala (only for its FP features and great learning resources)
  • prometheuspk 12y ago
    Would you say that FP itself (not the thought process it generates) would benefit me in mobile application devlopment. It's mostly gaining data and then setting it.
    • platz 12y ago
      FP has been hard to realize on mobile mostly due to the limited choice of languages available.
      • rubiquity 12y ago
        Yeah, I agree with this. However, I could still see a lot of merit in writing the server that the mobile application talks to in an FP language.
      • seanponeil 12y ago
        RxJava brings lot of FP idioms to Android, and it's great
    • rubiquity 12y ago
      Intentionally or not, the thought process FP languages generates will creep its way into your programs, and then probably into the way you would write object-oriented programs.
    • jimbokun 12y ago
• mikevm 12y ago
  I would consider looking at the following books: http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Java-Objects-Concepts-Edition/dp/1590594576 http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Java-Objects-Concepts-Editio... http://www.amazon.com/Program-Development-Java-Specification-Object-Oriented/dp/0201657686 http://www.amazon.com/Program-Development-Java-Specification...
• braydenjw 12y ago
  I see a lot of people suggesting books on design patterns.
• peq 12y ago
  http://principles-wiki.net/ http://principles-wiki.net/ A wiki with some nice explanations of design principles.
• brodo 12y ago
  I really like the SOLID principles: https://sites.google.com/site/unclebobconsultingllc/getting-a-solid-start https://sites.google.com/site/unclebobconsultingllc/getting-...
• thruflo 12y ago
  The books referenced in this thread are no doubt great but I wouldn't read a book to get better at software design. I would design software.
• ap22213 12y ago
  Are you able to elaborate on some of the types of design problems that they threw at you?
• craigching 12y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb here and not recommend a book. Good architecture and design take practice. You can get that practice by working with someone who understands it (some of the better, larger open source projects might be a good way to go). Books can help to a certain degree, but you have to make a conscious effort to practice what you're reading. The best thing to do, assuming you can't get the experience on the job, would be to find a big project and understand and contribute.
  • ams6110 12y ago
    I'm not sure it follows that a big project is necessarily an example of good design. But agree on the point that you can't just read about it. Having a qualified mentor is great; if you don't, read and practice. Note that a lot (most?) comp sci programs don't necessarily address design principles. If you're in a software engineering track they should, but my curriculum was mostly algorithms, data structures, operating systems, and programming languages. My senior year I had one class where design and project management was really a topic.
• presty 12y ago
  People in this thread are generally telling you to either read a book or build something, when those things are not mutually exclusive. So read books, build things and read code. I like to dig into open source libraries/frameworks/tools that I use in my projects and try and understand their design. It would be great if the documentation people write focused a little on that, instead of the more common "this is how you install" and "this is how you use" (and sometimes "this is how you build it") - but writing docs is hard/tiring and so that knowledge gets lost.
• mtdewcmu 12y ago
  What they want is mainstream orthodoxy like Design Patterns, OOP, etc. You'll want to study the buzzwords, mostly. What are the major principles of OOP? What is a Decorator Pattern? What is TDD? You won't be able to infer this stuff from studying software that works well. There are specific words they want to hear. Functional programming is probably not going to help at those interviews. FP isn't used at big corporations.
  • dropit_sphere 12y ago
    Unfortunately, this is very likely the case. Do all the things the thread suggests to learn about design. Then go read the Gang of Four book to get a job.
    • mtdewcmu 12y ago
      I'd get a job first. If you are not enthusiastic about corporate programming, there are all kinds of companies with all different styles. If you look hard enough, you can find one that fits your style.
• simplify 12y ago
  Learning software design principles is like learning how to draw - you need to study many, many examples before getting a good feel for it. For example, in drawing there are many individual principles, such as shading, perspective, scale, and so on. Studying each individual principle is only useful within the context of a full drawing. Software is the same way. Studying SOLID principles, application boundaries, encapsulation, etc. only makes sense within the context of a working application. Not only that, but making sense of design decisions is not as easy as "seeing the result" like you can in a drawing. With software design, you have to take a step further and continuously ask questions: "Why?" "Why not this?" "When would I use this?" "When would I *not* use this?" I'm an instructor at a coding school[1], and one of our biggest goals is to inculcate software design principles into our students. Frameworks are useful, but if you never learn proper software design, you'll always be stuck as a framework developer (e.g. Rails/Angular developer), and never become a software developer (i.e. frameworks and languages are just details). [1] http://www.makersquare.com/ http://www.makersquare.com/
  • mattgreenrocks 12y ago
    The difference between framework and software developer is often glossed over by people, especially on HN. In the position of the former, you're pushed around by your tools. In the latter, you learn how to push back and impose structure that speed development, clarify thinking, and reduce bug counts dramatically.
    • collyw 12y ago
      You are implying that rolling your own will give you faster, less buggy code, more organised code than using a framework?
• mck- 12y ago
  Engineering Long Lasting Software [1] is a book written by UC Berkeley profs who were teaching a great SaaS-class on Coursera (using Rails) two years ago [1] http://www.saasbook.info/ http://www.saasbook.info/
• kazinator 12y ago
  This simply looks as if the jobs you're applying for are too senior for your level of experience. Or the interviewers are idiots: they are looking for an ordinary developer, but interviewing for an architect. (This was a recently posted HN topic.) Get a job that's right for you and use it to get the design experience.
• sidcool 12y ago
  I feel for you. I was rejected from ThoughtWorks for this exactly same reason. I received a coding assignment and I implemented it. The solution worked, but it was not Object Oriented enough, nor was it easy to maintain and flexible. Thanks for asking this!
• edderly 12y ago
  When I interview someone about design problems, I'm most interested in their approach to decomposing the problem and their ability to express their thoughts and keep a track of their ideas as well as interact with me. In a way, you're almost looking at the interviewee as a teacher except they're obviously having to improvise on the subject at hand. I'd suggest the best practice is to understand the structure of software you're interested in and write about it.
• weishigoname 12y ago
  reading software design principles book is just one thing, most important thing is find a good way to practice what you learned from book, I suggest you following a open software project, or create your own, when your project become bigger, you will face more challenge, and you will learn more. :) just for your reference, fix me if you have better idea
• tegeek 12y ago
  When it comes to designing large scale business systems, I read Application Architecture Guide. I read every chapter many times and then eventually got enlightenment. Here is the detail description and PDF book http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff650706.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff650706.aspx It is targeted towards .NET developers but equally good for JVM, NodeJS etc.
• bigtunacan 12y ago
  I've seen multiple people mention the GoF's Design Patterns book. This is well known and worth several reads through; it will take multiple passes to grok all of it. There are several other books that have tried to explain the GoF's Design Patterns in either an easier to approach manner, or in the context of a specific language they have tried to explain where new design patterns have emerged or the original patterns had mutated. A couple of those worth checking out are "Head First Design Patterns" http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Design-Patterns-Freeman/dp/0596007124/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404810991&sr=1-1&keywords=head+first+design+patterns http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Design-Patterns-Freeman/dp/... "Design Patterns In Ruby" http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Ruby-Russ-Olsen/dp/0321490452/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404811054&sr=1-1&keywords=ruby+design+patterns http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Ruby-Russ-Olsen/dp/032... "Learning JavaScript Design Patterns" http://www.amazon.com/Learning-JavaScript-Design-Patterns-Osmani/dp/1449331815/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404811139&sr=1-1&keywords=javascript+design+patterns http://www.amazon.com/Learning-JavaScript-Design-Patterns-Os...
• antocv 12y ago
  While I agree that many of the already given examples of books to read are really good books, nice reads. I feel the best way to get into the mindset of good design, or design principals - even if it isnt "examples of good design" as the AOSA book - is to get immersed into an architecture formed from a design based mindset different than what you are used to. Learn something engineered with design principles heavily visible in mind. What is the design principle of a modern GNU/Linux system? Its mosthly philosophical, you wont find the answer in several books, its spread out far and wide and requires that you actually use GNU/Linux for years, to have taken part in its history. I suggest you pick up and learn JSF (Java Server Faces). Start reading JSF books, Java Enterprise things, start coding it, doing it. One good book is JSF in Action from Manning I believe. When you begin reading about or trying to make a hello world site in JSF - youll be like "wtf is this, fuck" - thats right - thats you being exposed to a different design principles based mindset. Its not bad, its in fact very good (JSF and the experience). Only once youve finished say a "community website, friends can befriend each other, send messages, write on wall, share pictures." in JSF, even though it looks as ugly as can be - then youve advanced more in passing those interviews with regards to design principles - than reading any of the books mentioned so far in this thread. But reading the other books wont dis-help you. EDIT: From experience, the books flaunted around here, Code Complete, AOSA, Design Patterns here there and everywhere, are just bullshit for this task. What your interviewers were asking for is not if you can count and use Design Patterns. Or if you agree or dont agree on which method in a class should be refactored out and what it should be named. Dive deeper out of your comfort zone - go for JSF.
• username42 12y ago
  Teach them. Whatever the subject, when you have to teach it to someone, your level of understanding increase. If you can find a public ready to listen to you, teach the subjects you want to master.
• seanewest 12y ago
  I sincerely believe that programming has gone through a couple of paradigms over the decades. For instance it used to be a good thing to never be scared of architecting a solution from the ground up (and the best often did) whereas nowadays our ecosystem of libraries and tools are so vast that it much more often is overkill, and the architect mentality often a handicap. (This is obviously just one person's opinion) Sounds principles are sometimes tied to these paradigms. For instance in past years one could maybe say "never use a tool that you don't know well" whereas nowadays with all of the layers of technologies that you are forced to work with it may have changed to just knowing why you have to use a technology and knowing well the aspects that you are using it for. Also, there are by now many generations of programmers, and we might not want to admit it but the people that grew up on assembly do tend to have different sensibilities than the people that grew up on scripting languages. With these generations often come ingrained mentalities that are tied to paradigms that are tied to principles which in fact are still subject to change.
• iqbaljamsheed 12y ago
  I'm currently 16 year old, studying in middle school. I want to enter programming, and am already taking Codeacademy courses in Javascript. I want advice from experienced programmers, on programming, and generally becoming a good programmer and how to think like a programmer. I also want suggestions for resource that I can use at my absolutely beginner level Thanks
• philrea 12y ago
  Write a relatively complex system without any external code and, preferably, without any previous training... It will suck, it will break, and eventually, it will be near impossible to add or change anything at all. But you will have experienced what the patterns n' principles authors (better) have and, I bet, even "accidentally" used a few of them. In my opinion, design principle = minimize dependency. Oh and, if you do follow my suggestion, use a language that isn't object oriented... at the least you will, like me, wonder why "object-oriented something" isn't explicitly defined by gof elsewhere and, at better, might "accidentally" implement some sort of custom object system I am gonna go ahead and say it... REINVENTING THE WHEEL IS A GOOD AND NECESSARY THING... if done for the right reasons, in the right circumstances...
• senderista 12y ago
  From 1983, could have been written yesterday (immutability, log as source of truth, etcetera): http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/blampson/33-hints/WebPage.html http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/blampson/33-hi...