5 ms·

How to rip apart a programmers CV

18 points by SpunkyMoney 12y ago

je42 12y ago
My method: 1. Take a section of their C.V. 2. Ask about their strongest points in that section. 3. Then go deep on their strongest point. 4. Note their ability to follow your deep dive 5. Repeat this multiple times 6. Review notes: - The more sections they have where they can dive deep to a reasonable level the more senior they are. - The deeper they can go, the more difficult an actual problem in the prospective job can be that you can throw at them. So far, this gave me a very accurate picture of their skill set.
tptacek 12y ago
We haven't seriously looked at a resume in 2 years. Phone screeners --- who barely count for anything in our process, but don't get me started on that --- might skim a resume just so they have something to start talking about. Otherwise, our hiring process is resume-blind. We bring people in directly out of school, from random line-of-business programming jobs all around the country, and from networking jobs for people who want to transfer into something more developer-y. I should mention: our work is not easy. I can hold my own in an argument that says we're significantly more technical and significantly more sophisticated than the median Silicon Valley startup. Resumes are worthless. Do not bother. If you're screening with resumes, you're doing something wrong.
- sutterbomb 12y ago
  So every single applicant that sends something in will have a discussion with someone one your team? And you find that time is a worthwhile investment?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    We hire at a faster tempo than a typical startup but slower than any big tech company, and the investment we put into recruiting has paid obvious dividends. We're looking for more ways to pour time into it, not less.
- rpedela 12y ago
  A bit black and white there. I generally agree that resumes should not be a top indicator, but they can be useful to screen out some people. For example, I once posted a job that included the word "Ruby". I thought the job posting made it clear that Ruby was a very, very small part of the job. But I still got several resumes from people who were Ruby experts or at least claimed to be, and that is all the experience they had given their resumes. They had little or no non-Ruby experience. At the time, I needed someone who could write Ruby code but had much more experience elsewhere. So the resumes helped me screen out those candidates. And I also learned that my job posting was worded incorrectly.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    And you talked to none of them? You just assumed that their resume told you everything you needed to know about their capabilities? And if it didn't, too bad for them for writing a shitty resume?
    - rpedela 12y ago
      In this particular case, I received ~20 resumes for 1 job and 80% were not Ruby-only resumes. So yes the Ruby-only screened them out. However I would have gone back and contacted them if none of the other 80% of candidates worked out.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        You will get better results if you build a process that doesn't screen people out because of their resumes. That doesn't mean you don't screen candidates, and it doesn't mean that you don't have a funnel that knocks out a big chunk of them before you get on the phone. It just means: don't select people for their getting-a-new-job skills. Those skills aren't relevant to software development work.
        hallmark 12y ago
        Based on your other comment, does this mean you use a commercial or custom general mental ability test in the funnel before screening and interviews? It would be helpful to know more about what you do versus what you don't.
kalleth 12y ago
Oh god. Most of this is hilarious. "A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" True, but they'll be a damn sight quicker at picking it up than anyone else. And they'll write far better code when they're there. If you're looking for a permanent employee, all development experience is relevant -- there is a huge amount of overlap and retraining just for a different language is no biggie. They'll also have solved (i'd bet) far harder problems than "HOW DO I GET THIS UI WIDGET TO UPDATE WHEN THIS HAPPENS". If you're looking for someone to hit the ground running from day 1, or work as a contractor, it's different. But you generalise too far here. "However, they have failed to mention anything else to back it up. I would expect to see some of the following throughout their CV; Design Patterns (MVC, Factories, Singletons, ActiveRecord), Classes, Objects, UML…" In my CV (highly rated by everyone i've given it to) you won't find a single one of these. Instead, you'll find real descriptions of what i've accomplished, who I worked with (mentoring etc), my methodology (agile, test driven development) and so on. And UML... holy shit, yeah, no. Community work? See Ashe Dryden's "The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS community", http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-and-the-oss-community http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an..., and James Coglan's "Why GitHub is not your CV", https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-cv/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-c.... Hiring the right people has always been, and will continue to be, a hard job. The only way to do it is to use common sense and actually read the CV's you're being sent, then talk to the people you think could do the job to see if they can.
- noamsml 12y ago
  "How to rip apart an article about ripping apart a programmer's CV"
- opendais 12y ago
  Ya, I'm not sure if the OP was a troll HN post or what the goal was but the bit about keywords to me made me immediately shake my head. The only people who want keyword stuffed resumes are recruiters. Also, the poor capitalization/grammar in places. e.g. (which i will cover shortly) I'm amazed this was upvoted.
clubhi 12y ago
Do you really believe that your 10 years of C# would keep you more efficient than say...John Carmack...after a few weeks on the job? If you find a great programmer and they don't have your keywords you shouldn't turn them away. As long as they are excited about learning a new language they will be out performing some of your veterans in little time.
- SpunkyMoney 12y ago
  Think I have sort of replied to your comment in another comment on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877
V-2 12y ago
"Any experience, languages or technology that does not apply to what we need in the team. Let us say we are looking for “A junior front end web application developer”. A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" I think this is a bit contrived. It's a long way from C to modern web development, but I see no reason why to skip extensive C# experience applying for a Java shop etc. Or even experience with a different paradigm (such as functional programming). Having worked with a multitude of technologies is beneficial for a programmer. It enhances one's understanding of the craft. It also proves the programmer has flexed their "learning muscles" a lot, which again is an advantage in its own right, since learning is a job never done. Even if you have the just right experience right now, what happens in 3 years? Of course directly relevant experience should be given clear priority over "other stuff", but I wouldn't be so harsh as to say it better be skipped altogether.
- SpunkyMoney 12y ago
  Think i've already replied to this (sort of) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877
withdavidli 12y ago
Article missed to ignore gigantic blocks of technologies used. This is not a good place to figure out what the person is current in. Side question: I keep hearing that ATS have filtering systems to block and auto reject candidates' resumes if they don't hit targeted keywords. Would like to know some of these companies / what the ATS actually is. I have worked with several ATS systems with several companies and each one always have to a human going through every single resume.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
chrisbennet 12y ago
The keyword matching thing is one of my pet peeves. I was discussing a position once where they wanted firmware AND machine control AND computer vision AND WPF AND C++ AND SQL for their machine. Now this a machine I could produce myself from scratch I think. But the client wanted his keywords met I didn't have them all. The recruiter had a laugh when I wrote this: I’m not sure Michelangelo had painted a ceiling before he painted the Sistine Chapel. “Hmm, Mike I don’t see any ceiling painting experience on your resume’...”
dmitrygr 12y ago
I cannot imagine an article more wrong than this one. * "A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" - yes he can. Knowing things on bottom easily allows one to move up. It is the reverse that usually cannot happen. * "Ignore the usual template based CV padding" - if you got the resume through an agency, it would have never made it to you without this bullshit. Sad but true * "You often need specialists and not generalists." - false Specialists will become useless when that technology is no longer in use (you move form C# to java, for example). generalists will just help you with your next thing. * "If you are looking for a C# or Java developer. You would expect their CV to contain those keywords, in context quite a few times." - false. If you have enough interesting things to put in your resume, there is no space to write "java" 1000 times. * "I would expect to see some of the following throughout their CV; Design Patterns (MVC, Factories, Singletons, ActiveRecord), Classes, Objects, UML" - who the hell puts "classes" and "objects" on their resme. If i have to explain to you what OOP is and includes, I do not want to work for you! * "Community participation" - maybe accurate. Some people do not like handing out their code for free on github, and instead get paid for it (people who contract for a living, for example). Really want to disqualify them? * "if it becomes the next big thing, this person could be the one to keep your company at the forefront!" - If you hire based on technology instead of actual understanding (which it sounds like you do) then you will lose long term. Hire people who can actually learn, not those who happen to claim to know the latest buzzwords. Of all the brilliant people I know, you would have discarded 100% at resume review stage. Probably not the best of ideas, that.
- ASneakyFox 12y ago
  That part made me laugh. Including "objects and classes" on a programmers resume is like a trucker including "steering and accelerating" on his. Unfortunately the person who is going to hire you often has no programming experience. Or if they did it was an intro to vb course. So concepts like objects seem like very advanced stuff to them as its likely some thing they just barely were ever to scratch the surface on. Truckers have the advantage that their employets probably atleast drive some thing on a daily basis.
- SpunkyMoney 12y ago

18 points by SpunkyMoney 12y ago

je42 12y ago

My method: 1. Take a section of their C.V. 2. Ask about their strongest points in that section. 3. Then go deep on their strongest point. 4. Note their ability to follow your deep dive 5. Repeat this multiple times 6. Review notes: - The more sections they have where they can dive deep to a reasonable level the more senior they are. - The deeper they can go, the more difficult an actual problem in the prospective job can be that you can throw at them. So far, this gave me a very accurate picture of their skill set.

tptacek 12y ago

We haven't seriously looked at a resume in 2 years. Phone screeners --- who barely count for anything in our process, but don't get me started on that --- might skim a resume just so they have something to start talking about. Otherwise, our hiring process is resume-blind. We bring people in directly out of school, from random line-of-business programming jobs all around the country, and from networking jobs for people who want to transfer into something more developer-y. I should mention: our work is not easy. I can hold my own in an argument that says we're significantly more technical and significantly more sophisticated than the median Silicon Valley startup. Resumes are worthless. Do not bother. If you're screening with resumes, you're doing something wrong.

sutterbomb 12y ago
So every single applicant that sends something in will have a discussion with someone one your team? And you find that time is a worthwhile investment?
- tptacek 12y ago
  We hire at a faster tempo than a typical startup but slower than any big tech company, and the investment we put into recruiting has paid obvious dividends. We're looking for more ways to pour time into it, not less.
rpedela 12y ago
A bit black and white there. I generally agree that resumes should not be a top indicator, but they can be useful to screen out some people. For example, I once posted a job that included the word "Ruby". I thought the job posting made it clear that Ruby was a very, very small part of the job. But I still got several resumes from people who were Ruby experts or at least claimed to be, and that is all the experience they had given their resumes. They had little or no non-Ruby experience. At the time, I needed someone who could write Ruby code but had much more experience elsewhere. So the resumes helped me screen out those candidates. And I also learned that my job posting was worded incorrectly.
- tptacek 12y ago
  And you talked to none of them? You just assumed that their resume told you everything you needed to know about their capabilities? And if it didn't, too bad for them for writing a shitty resume?
  - rpedela 12y ago
    In this particular case, I received ~20 resumes for 1 job and 80% were not Ruby-only resumes. So yes the Ruby-only screened them out. However I would have gone back and contacted them if none of the other 80% of candidates worked out.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      You will get better results if you build a process that doesn't screen people out because of their resumes. That doesn't mean you don't screen candidates, and it doesn't mean that you don't have a funnel that knocks out a big chunk of them before you get on the phone. It just means: don't select people for their getting-a-new-job skills. Those skills aren't relevant to software development work.
      - hallmark 12y ago
        Based on your other comment, does this mean you use a commercial or custom general mental ability test in the funnel before screening and interviews? It would be helpful to know more about what you do versus what you don't.

kalleth 12y ago

Oh god. Most of this is hilarious. "A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" True, but they'll be a damn sight quicker at picking it up than anyone else. And they'll write far better code when they're there. If you're looking for a permanent employee, all development experience is relevant -- there is a huge amount of overlap and retraining just for a different language is no biggie. They'll also have solved (i'd bet) far harder problems than "HOW DO I GET THIS UI WIDGET TO UPDATE WHEN THIS HAPPENS". If you're looking for someone to hit the ground running from day 1, or work as a contractor, it's different. But you generalise too far here. "However, they have failed to mention anything else to back it up. I would expect to see some of the following throughout their CV; Design Patterns (MVC, Factories, Singletons, ActiveRecord), Classes, Objects, UML…" In my CV (highly rated by everyone i've given it to) you won't find a single one of these. Instead, you'll find real descriptions of what i've accomplished, who I worked with (mentoring etc), my methodology (agile, test driven development) and so on. And UML... holy shit, yeah, no. Community work? See Ashe Dryden's "The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS community", http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-and-the-oss-community http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an..., and James Coglan's "Why GitHub is not your CV", https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-cv/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-c.... Hiring the right people has always been, and will continue to be, a hard job. The only way to do it is to use common sense and actually read the CV's you're being sent, then talk to the people you think could do the job to see if they can.

noamsml 12y ago
"How to rip apart an article about ripping apart a programmer's CV"
opendais 12y ago
Ya, I'm not sure if the OP was a troll HN post or what the goal was but the bit about keywords to me made me immediately shake my head. The only people who want keyword stuffed resumes are recruiters. Also, the poor capitalization/grammar in places. e.g. (which i will cover shortly) I'm amazed this was upvoted.

clubhi 12y ago

Do you really believe that your 10 years of C# would keep you more efficient than say...John Carmack...after a few weeks on the job? If you find a great programmer and they don't have your keywords you shouldn't turn them away. As long as they are excited about learning a new language they will be out performing some of your veterans in little time.

SpunkyMoney 12y ago
Think I have sort of replied to your comment in another comment on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877

V-2 12y ago

"Any experience, languages or technology that does not apply to what we need in the team. Let us say we are looking for “A junior front end web application developer”. A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" I think this is a bit contrived. It's a long way from C to modern web development, but I see no reason why to skip extensive C# experience applying for a Java shop etc. Or even experience with a different paradigm (such as functional programming). Having worked with a multitude of technologies is beneficial for a programmer. It enhances one's understanding of the craft. It also proves the programmer has flexed their "learning muscles" a lot, which again is an advantage in its own right, since learning is a job never done. Even if you have the just right experience right now, what happens in 3 years? Of course directly relevant experience should be given clear priority over "other stuff", but I wouldn't be so harsh as to say it better be skipped altogether.

SpunkyMoney 12y ago
Think i've already replied to this (sort of) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7994877

withdavidli 12y ago

Article missed to ignore gigantic blocks of technologies used. This is not a good place to figure out what the person is current in. Side question: I keep hearing that ATS have filtering systems to block and auto reject candidates' resumes if they don't hit targeted keywords. Would like to know some of these companies / what the ATS actually is. I have worked with several ATS systems with several companies and each one always have to a human going through every single resume.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

chrisbennet 12y ago

The keyword matching thing is one of my pet peeves. I was discussing a position once where they wanted firmware AND machine control AND computer vision AND WPF AND C++ AND SQL for their machine. Now this a machine I could produce myself from scratch I think. But the client wanted his keywords met I didn't have them all. The recruiter had a laugh when I wrote this: I’m not sure Michelangelo had painted a ceiling before he painted the Sistine Chapel. “Hmm, Mike I don’t see any ceiling painting experience on your resume’...”

dmitrygr 12y ago

I cannot imagine an article more wrong than this one. * "A seasoned C developer with 10 years experience can not instantly morph into an advanced front end web application developer" - yes he can. Knowing things on bottom easily allows one to move up. It is the reverse that usually cannot happen. * "Ignore the usual template based CV padding" - if you got the resume through an agency, it would have never made it to you without this bullshit. Sad but true * "You often need specialists and not generalists." - false Specialists will become useless when that technology is no longer in use (you move form C# to java, for example). generalists will just help you with your next thing. * "If you are looking for a C# or Java developer. You would expect their CV to contain those keywords, in context quite a few times." - false. If you have enough interesting things to put in your resume, there is no space to write "java" 1000 times. * "I would expect to see some of the following throughout their CV; Design Patterns (MVC, Factories, Singletons, ActiveRecord), Classes, Objects, UML" - who the hell puts "classes" and "objects" on their resme. If i have to explain to you what OOP is and includes, I do not want to work for you! * "Community participation" - maybe accurate. Some people do not like handing out their code for free on github, and instead get paid for it (people who contract for a living, for example). Really want to disqualify them? * "if it becomes the next big thing, this person could be the one to keep your company at the forefront!" - If you hire based on technology instead of actual understanding (which it sounds like you do) then you will lose long term. Hire people who can actually learn, not those who happen to claim to know the latest buzzwords. Of all the brilliant people I know, you would have discarded 100% at resume review stage. Probably not the best of ideas, that.

ASneakyFox 12y ago
That part made me laugh. Including "objects and classes" on a programmers resume is like a trucker including "steering and accelerating" on his. Unfortunately the person who is going to hire you often has no programming experience. Or if they did it was an intro to vb course. So concepts like objects seem like very advanced stuff to them as its likely some thing they just barely were ever to scratch the surface on. Truckers have the advantage that their employets probably atleast drive some thing on a daily basis.
SpunkyMoney 12y ago